Where all of those myths came from and why?

General UFO stories

Moderators: ryguy, chrLz, Zep Tepi

Where all of those myths came from and why?

Postby Access Denied » Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:40 am

This post is in reply to this one by Ry here…

http://www.realityuncovered.com/forum/v ... 0095#10095

Perhaps a review of the past is in order?

Some select excerpts from various sources with my emphasis in bold…

The Majestic-12 Papers
http://www.roswellfiles.com/FOIA/majestic12.htm

“The Majestic-12 papers first came to light in 1984, when a film cassette with photographs of the papers were mailed to Jaime Shandera. At the time, Shandera was not involved with UFO research and was a little known producer of documentaries. So one might be quite curious as why the papers were "leaked" to him, unless you know that one of Shandera's good friends was UFO researcher and author William Moore (see below!). Together with Stanton Friedman, they eventually released the papers some two years later. These papers became cornerstones in several books about Roswell, including Stanton Friedman's Crash at Corona and TOP SECRET/ MAJIK.

[snip]

“The term "MJ Twelve" was apparently first used on a one-page "Secret" teletype message dated Nov. 17, 1980, which Richard Doty provided to Moore in early 1981, who in turn, showed a copy of the telegram to researchers Brad Sparks and Kal Korff on Jan. 17, 1980. Doty at this time was an agent for Air Force Intelligence, who had earlier admitted to forging other UFO documents (the Elsworth Document). At the time the Shandera received the film canister, Doty was stationed at Kirkland Air Force Base in Albuquerque, NM. The envelope the film arrived in was postmarked Albuquerque, NM.

(Robert Todd, a very determined and competent UFO researcher, investigated the teletype message, and showed that it was a hoax in early 1983.)”

[snip]

“We next hear of the term when William Moore approached former National Enquirer reporter Bob Pratt in January 1982. Pratt was asked to collaborate on a novel by Moore. The working title of this novel was to be MAJIK-12(!). Consider that the alleged MJ-12 documents would not be "leaked" to Shandera until 1984, and we see the seeds of suspicion starting to grow.

Next, we have this: "According to Friedman, among others, Moore had suggested as early as 1982 that he wanted to create Roswell documents, thinking that it might open doors that were closed."

(The Truth About the UFO Crash at Roswell, Randle and Schmitt)”

[snip]

“Then in 1983, Moore sought Brad Sparks reaction to a plan of his to create counterfeit government documents. Moore told Sparks he believed that counterfeit documents could be used to induce former military officers to speak out about what the gov’t really knew about UFOs and the cover-up. Sparks suggested strongly that Moore not do this. Sparks was so upset that he called Stanton Friedman and found, to his shock, that Friedman thought that the hoaxing of such documents was a good idea.

[snip]

“Moore, Shandera, and Friedman altered the appearance of the MJ-12 documents in their first release of the Focus newsletter to give the appearance of government censorship. They later had to admit that they did it themselves.

At the ON UFO Symposium Proceedings, "MJ-12 and Phil Klass: What are the facts?" by William L. Moore and Stanton T. Friedman: They included a reproduction of the mail packet addressed to Jaime Shandera. The bottoms of the postmarks were blackened out on all three postmarks. This would have shown the state and city that the mail packet was mailed in. In the presentation, Moore and Friedman stated the package "bore no return address".

[snip]

“If they were forged, then who did write them? The documents in the original group all seem to be centered on Bill Moore and Richard Doty. The Aquarius telex, the proposed novel, the proposal to "create" government documents. Ultimately, it really does not matter who did, so long as we understand that someone in the UFO movement felt that it was vitally necessary to create "proof" where none existed.”

From there it’s get better (worse)…

The New Bogus Majestic-12 Documents
http://www.csicop.org/si/2000-05/majestic-12.html

“Recently, a large batch of additional "Top Secret Majestic Documents" have emerged, provided by another UFOlogist named Tim Cooper, who claims he obtained them from several covert sources. Their authenticity has been endorsed by Robert Wood, a respected, retired McDonnell Douglas scientist and his son Ryan. (Wood is a member of the nine-person Executive Council of Peter Sturrock's Society for Scientific Exploration.) Based on the Woods' assessment, wealthy Silicon Valley software expert Joe Firmage, who recently revealed his conviction that some UFOs are extraterrestrial visitors, also endorsed Cooper's documents in mid-1999.

However, on November 25 the International Space Sciences Organization (ISSO), which Firmage recently created to pursue his UFO interests, issued a statement that "ongoing research indicates that many, possibly all, the so-called MJ-12 UFO documents were officially fabricated as instruments of U.S. covert psychological warfare . . ." (emphasis added). This is ridiculous! The new Cooper documents, like their 1987 predecessors, are so riddled with flaws that they could never fool Soviet or Chinese intelligence experts. Even some long-time pro-UFOlogists have denounced them as obvious counterfeits.”

Note that Sturrock’s nine appears to be this feathery group now?

Peregrine Communications
http://ufoconspiracy.com/reports/author ... ltants.htm

And Moore fingers his associates?

Saucer Smear, January 10th, 1999
http://www.martiansgohome.com/smear/v46/ss990110.htm

“We have a long "Personal Communication, Confidential" from famed ufologist William Moore, the gist of which is as follows: He still believes that the MJ-12 documents may be genuine, and he insists that if they are fabricated, he did not do it, nor does he know who did. He again discusses the possibility that it was done by Phil Klass, and goes on to discuss several other "suspects": He entertains the possibility that Richard Doty was an unwitting tool of higher-ups in the AFOSI hierarchy; He mentions Jaime Shandera (who disappeared mysteriously over a year ago, according to Moore) as a remotely possible suspect; Ditto in regard to Stanton Friedman, Bruce Maccabee, and even Whitley Strieber. He concludes that if the documents are indeed fabrications, the most likely explanation is that he, Shandera and Doty were all dupes of some Government plan, for reasons that are not clear.

Of course there’s another possibility as John Shirley “The Skeptical Believer” points out in this interesting article…

JOE FIRMAGE AND JOHNNY ROTTEN! (PLUS BOB AND RYAN WOOD PLUS MAJIC TWELVE)
http://www.darkecho.com/skepticalbeliever/firmage.html

“Or perhaps they are a feint to distract investigators from the real MJ-12. There does seem to have been one. Ted Oliphant's military sources tell him that MJ-12 was actually dedicated to nuclear weaponry and nuclear energy development. "The Majestic 12" or "The Magic 12" is, oddly enough, mentioned in the movie Tora! Tora! Tora! with, I've heard, a list of names visible in the movie which are the same names seen on MJ-12 documents. Could the movie have inspired the hoax? Or does the movie reference a real-life group that was up to something that American intelligence agencies don't want us to know about -- agencies already embarrassed by revelations of our recruitment of Nazi intelligence personnel, and Nazi scientists, into secret post-war operations.

To me, it's more credible that the documents originated with government disinformation agents, than with agencies who had routine dealings with numerous crashed extraterrestrial vehicles.”

Or there’s this possibility raised by Paul Kimball in this comment on Kevin Randle’s Blog …

MJ-12 Revisited
http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2006/08 ... sited.html

“Kevin:

I agree with you in broad strokes about MJ-12 being fake, and agree that it is possible that there was some governmental involvement, probably Doty and his compadres. Where I would disagree is that the MJ-12 documents would have been created to sidetrack UFO research. If it was some kind of government disinformation, I suspect it was designed for another, more mundane, purpose, perhaps targeted at the USSR, or perhaps to distract UFO researchers (and anyone else) from real top secret projects.

Really, how many people has MJ-12 distracted over the past two decades? Amongst serious researchers, for any length of time, I can only think of Stan. Most everyone else has said their piece long ago, and moved on.

The real distraction, in my opinion, has been Roswell (to which, of course, MJ-12 is related).

As for Mj-12, I would still say that the most likely explanation is the simplest one - created for profit by those involved in the Roswell investigation, of whom Bill Moore, despite his frequent denials, seems to be the most likely suspect, perhaps working with Doty, perhaps not.

Good to see you back in the bloggin' mood! :-)

Best regards,

Paul”

My $0.02?

where = pulp “science” fiction
why = fun (for former government “intelligence” officials) + profit (for Moore, Friedman, et. al.)

Round and round we go…
Men go and come but Earth abides.
User avatar
Access Denied
1 of the RU3
 
Posts: 2740
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:32 am
Location: [redacted]


Postby ryguy » Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:54 pm

Fantasic summary Access! It is nice to have the MJ12 history all in one place, so thanks for doing that. And I agree with you on just about every count regarding the possible motives. The only one (minor) issue I wonder about is whether the former intel folks are really only in it for fun. I'm starting to become convinced that there's a tad more to it than that - and possibly not so mundane. But that's speculation based on circumstantial info - so I better hold off on expressing my suspicions for now!

One thing is now for certain, there are more individuals involved beyond the usual suspects. Why they are involved, motives, etc...remains a mystery for now.

Again - terrific writeup, thank you for that.

-Ry
---
"Only a fool of a scientist would dismiss the evidence and reports in front of him and substitute his own beliefs in their place." - Paul Kurtz

The RU Blog
Top Secret Writers
User avatar
ryguy
1 of the RU3
 
Posts: 4920
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:49 am
Location: Another Dimension

Postby MikeJamieson » Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:56 pm

There's some stuff in there I hadn't heard (like the intriguing reference
in the "Tora, Tora" movie). Fortunately, Moseley keeps in contact with
Moore, so we've been hearing his thoughts on this over time (through
recently). Thanks for this great summary.
MikeJamieson
Clearly Discerns Reality
Clearly Discerns Reality
 
Posts: 564
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:53 pm
Location: Ukiah, CA

Postby cartoonsyndicate » Wed Feb 14, 2007 12:09 am

Accessdenied:
“Then in 1983, Moore sought Brad Sparks reaction to a plan of his to create counterfeit government documents. Moore told Sparks he believed that counterfeit documents could be used to induce former military officers to speak out about what the gov’t really knew about UFOs and the cover-up. Sparks suggested strongly that Moore not do this. Sparks was so upset that he called Stanton Friedman and found, to his shock, that Friedman thought that the hoaxing of such documents was a good idea.”


Isn't it worth mentioning- for the sake of fairness- that Stan Friedman has denied this allegation over and over ad nauseum? And also that Sparks, when asked by Shawna Connelly (here on this forum) in May of 2006, refused to re-state it? This issue was first raised by the late notorious debunker Phil Klass, an avowed enemy of Friedman and of Ufology in general.

Are the MJ12 documents real? Who knows? It may turn out to be a hoax created out of whole cloth by Rick Doty and AFOSI. But even if that turns out to be the case it must be borne in mind that Doty was an intel agent at that time. It's hard to believe that he was acting on his own. So hoax or truth, the MJ12 docs are significant. If, in fact, the MJ docs were an AFOSI operation, then it stands to reason that Moore was also an intel agent at that time. Of course in 1989 he admitted to precisely that but never admitted to forging the MJ12 docs. The same conclusion cannot be made about Friedman. Given the possibility of Doty/ Moore involvement it can be deduced that Friedman may have been unknowingly used as a conduit for false information.

Such is the murky state of MJ12.

Was there a treaty between Eisenhower and the aliens? The truth will not surprise me.

Please don't think that these issues have been resolved. They have not. Put it in a nutshell if you will, but there is still more here than meets the eye.

cs
amidst the growing ripples and wiry bamboos, broken in youth like the teeth of a mutant.. Afterburn, ca 1978
User avatar
cartoonsyndicate
Suspended
 
Posts: 851
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 12:10 pm
Location: The Borg

Postby Access Denied » Wed Feb 14, 2007 4:37 am

cartoonsyndicate wrote:Isn't it worth mentioning- for the sake of fairness- that Stan Friedman has denied this allegation over and over ad nauseum? And also that Sparks, when asked by Shawna Connelly (here on this forum) in May of 2006, refused to re-state it? This issue was first raised by the late notorious debunker Phil Klass, an avowed enemy of Friedman and of Ufology in general.

It is worth mentioning since I was unaware of that conversation between Shawnna (that’s two n’s LOL) and Sparks so thank you for that but regardless, in that case, I have to ask why did Sparks say it in the first place? Also, I take everything Friedman has to say with a grain of salt… in my opinion he is the enemy of serious (credible) UFOlogists.

cartoonsyndicate wrote:It may turn out to be a hoax created out of whole cloth by Rick Doty and AFOSI. But even if that turns out to be the case it must be borne in mind that Doty was an intel agent at that time.

I’m going to have to agree with Springer’s take on this from this post here during the Serpo saga…

http://realityuncovered.com/forum/viewt ... =1818#1818

Springer wrote:These charlatans were claiming disclosure of the single BIGGEST thing in Human History. In that context, I seriously DOUBT a Sergeant who allegedly ended up as a Cook at Kirtland AFB has that information.


AFAIK (correct me if I wrong) Doty has failed to provide ANY documentation that he was an AFOSI agent. I know for a fact if he was that documentation would be easy to produce. If I had to guess Doty was a SP (Security Police, aka the second least desirable job in the AF which is where they put the guys who don’t score high enough on the ASVAB test to be trusted with a wrench LOL) who got busted down to FSM (Food Service Management, aka the least desirable job in the AF) for misrepresenting himself (i.e. impersonating) as an OSI agent.

cartoonsyndicate wrote:It's hard to believe that he was acting on his own.

I agree, at the very least he probably had help from Moore and Friedman. :)

cartoonsyndicate wrote:If, in fact, the MJ docs were an AFOSI operation, then it stands to reason that Moore was also an intel agent at that time. Of course in 1989 he admitted to precisely that but never admitted to forging the MJ12 docs.

Can he prove it or is what he’s really saying is he was “working” for somebody who also falsely claimed they were acting in an official capacity? Seems like this is an awfully convenient (i.e. unverifiable) excuse a lot of hoaxers use when they get caught.

cartoonsyndicate wrote:The same conclusion cannot be made about Friedman. Given the possibility of Doty/ Moore involvement it can be deduced that Friedman may have been unknowingly used as a conduit for false information.

I’m not buying it. Since when does somebody who calls himself a “nuclear physicist” unknowingly (or unwittingly) do anything? I’m sorry but there is no excuse for promoting uncorroborated “anonymous” information as fact under any circumstances… it’s irresponsible at the very least if not criminal… IMHO.

cartoonsyndicate wrote:Was there a treaty between Eisenhower and the aliens? The truth will not surprise me.

You’re kidding right? I suppose you believe Roswell could have been more than just a poor (not humorous) choice for a newspaper headline too? :)
Men go and come but Earth abides.
User avatar
Access Denied
1 of the RU3
 
Posts: 2740
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:32 am
Location: [redacted]

Postby cartoonsyndicate » Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:26 pm

AD wrote

You’re kidding right? I suppose you believe Roswell could have been more than just a poor (not humorous) choice for a newspaper headline too? Smile


I do in fact think that Roswell was more than that. From RU forum: (The quoted speaker was Barry Goldwater):



PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:27 pm Post subject: Reply with quote Edit/Delete this post

* "I used to receive a hundred calls a year from people who wanted me to get into the Green Room at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, because that's where the Air Force stored all the material gathered on UFOs. I once asked Curtis LeMay if I could get in that room, and he just gave me holy hell. He said, 'Not only can't you get into it but don't you ever mention it to me again.' Now, with the millions of planets that we know are up there, it's hard for me to believe that ours is the only goddam one that has things that can think walking around on it. So when people tell me they've seen UFOs, I don't say they haven't. In fifteen thousand hours of flying, I've never seen one, but I've talked to pilots who have. I talked to an airline crew that swore up and down that an object came alongside of them one night, and before they could do anything it vanished. We lost a military pilot who went up to intercept strange lights and never came back. His airplane disappeared, too. I won't argue for or against."

(The New Yorker, April 25, 1988, p 70)


Scepticism is good. Gratuitous debunkery, not so good. The two impulses are separated by a narrow line. Apperception of history is theory, not fact. That's what makes it worth discussing.

cs
amidst the growing ripples and wiry bamboos, broken in youth like the teeth of a mutant.. Afterburn, ca 1978
User avatar
cartoonsyndicate
Suspended
 
Posts: 851
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 12:10 pm
Location: The Borg

Postby Serpentime » Fri Feb 16, 2007 4:37 am

Hi folks,

Brian Parks has just posted this response:

Brian Parks wrote:Recently posted comment about history of MJ-12 Documents were made on the Reality Uncovered Board in response to a question by RU Administration member Ryan Dube “Where all these myths came from and why? A partial answer can be found in the kind of copy and paste Ufology that is encouraged on so many websites and message boards.


http://www.realityuncovered.com/forum/v ... .php?t=767


Quote:

“The Majestic-12 papers first came to light in 1984, when a film cassette with photographs of the papers were mailed to Jaime Shandera. At the time, Shandera was not involved with UFO research and was a little known producer of documentaries. So one might be quite curious as why the papers were "leaked" to him, unless you know that one of Shandera's good friends was UFO researcher and author William Moore (see below!). Together with Stanton Friedman, they eventually released the papers some two years later. These papers became cornerstones in several books about Roswell, including Stanton Friedman's Crash at Corona and TOP SECRET/ MAJIK.”


Shandera was involved with Moore since 1982 after being approached for a documentary project. He was very much known to Bill Moore’s small group of government sources at that time. He also had a secure home mailing address unlike Bill Moore’s Post Office address.


Quote:

“The term "MJ Twelve" was apparently first used on a one-page "Secret" teletype message dated Nov. 17, 1980, which Richard Doty provided to Moore in early 1981, who in turn, showed a copy of the telegram to researchers Brad Sparks and Kal Korff on Jan. 17, 1980. Doty at this time was an agent for Air Force Intelligence, who had earlier admitted to forging other UFO documents (the Elsworth Document). At the time the Shandera received the film canister, Doty was stationed at Kirkland Air Force Base in Albuquerque, NM. The envelope the film arrived in was postmarked Albuquerque, NM.

(Robert Todd, a very determined and competent UFO researcher, investigated the teletype message, and showed that it was a hoax in early 1983.)”



According to Moore the teletype was an altered version of a real teletype that was to be passed on the Bennewitz. Mr. Todd’s opinion aside, the document as altered did in fact contain both accurate and inaccurate information related to both the Bennewitz case and personnel involved at Kirtland in that security operation. It was in no way a simple hoax. To the best of my knowledge Doty has never admitted he (Doty) forged the Elsworth Documents or any other documents.


Quote:

“We next hear of the term when William Moore approached former National Enquirer reporter Bob Pratt in January 1982. Pratt was asked to collaborate on a novel by Moore. The working title of this novel was to be MAJIK-12(!). Consider that the alleged MJ-12 documents would not be "leaked" to Shandera until 1984, and we see the seeds of suspicion starting to grow.


The Novel in question had the working title of “Project Aquarius” and was to be a blend of fact, fiction and leak information. Not something unknown in fiction works that involve the intelligence community a classified subjects. Bill did have hopes this might stir things up on the inside. This is relevant to the next part.


Quote:

Next, we have this: "According to Friedman, among others, Moore had suggested as early as 1982 that he wanted to create Roswell documents, thinking that it might open doors that were closed."

(The Truth About the UFO Crash at Roswell, Randle and Schmitt)”

[snip]

“Then in 1983, Moore sought Brad Sparks reaction to a plan of his to create counterfeit government documents. Moore told Sparks he believed that counterfeit documents could be used to induce former military officers to speak out about what the gov’t really knew about UFOs and the cover-up. Sparks suggested strongly that Moore not do this. Sparks was so upset that he called Stanton Friedman and found, to his shock, that Friedman thought that the hoaxing of such documents was a good idea.”



Although Stanton Friedman, who I have known since 1984, has already denied this I contacted him recently for comments on the record:


The normally diplomatic Friedman replied:


“I am so sick of this crap being repeated over and over again. I appreciate your keeping me appraised…..I did not approve of anybody faking any documents. Ever. When Bill first released the EBE, I was living in Canada. It was a fait accompli. I have said I wished he had said that he was blacking out portions to be sure that if somebody else came forward, he really had the same documents. I never told Brad that I approved of putting out fake documents. NEVER.”


Quote:

“Moore, Shandera, and Friedman altered the appearance of the MJ-12 documents in their first release of the Focus newsletter to give the appearance of government censorship. They later had to admit that they did it themselves.


Not true at all. At the time FOCUS (William Moore’s) Newsletter was being prepared portions of the document were blacked out to see if anybody could come forward and fill in the blanks. Once Moore became aware that Timothy Good was publishing the same document in its entirety he released a complete unedited version.


Quote:

At the ON UFO Symposium Proceedings, "MJ-12 and Phil Klass: What are the facts?" by William L. Moore and Stanton T. Friedman: They included a reproduction of the mail packet addressed to Jaime Shandera. The bottoms of the postmarks were blackened out on all three postmarks. This would have shown the state and city that the mail packet was mailed in. In the presentation, Moore and Friedman stated the package "bore no return address".


I do not have any direct knowledge but would suspect the same technique to see if someone could come forward with where the documents were sent from. Bill Moore used this technique to my knowledge since 1983 in published material. Moore’s sources denied being responsible for those mailed documents and a very large number of people do classified work in and around Kirtland AFB New Mexico. Not just Rick Doty!



Quote on RU board of Bill Moore as reported in Saucer Smear January 1999:


He concludes that if the documents are indeed fabrications, the most likely explanation is that he, Shandera and Doty were all dupes of some Government plan, for reasons that are not clear.


I agree 100% with that statement. In recent interviews a decade after Bill Moore left the public UFO scene he has said the same thing.




How do I know this? I knew Bill Moore closely from 1983 until he dropped his UFO research around 1994. I was a contributor to the Newsletter “FOCUS” 1984-94 and on the Board of his “Fair Witness Project” that published it. I had many personal conversations with Bill on this subject and many others. All of what I have stated above is what was told to me directly by Moore at the time and my personal research unless stated otherwise. Hearsay evidence posted over and over is not a very valid method of research in my opinion.





Brian Parks

Torrance, Ca.
"Life's fantasy... To be locked away, and still to think you're free."

-- Ronnie Dio
User avatar
Serpentime
Valued Contributor
 
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 6:38 pm
Location: The Tree of Knowledge

Postby Access Denied » Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:07 am

Thanks for posting this Serpentine!

As I understand it the material was culled from USENET posts "back in the day".
Men go and come but Earth abides.
User avatar
Access Denied
1 of the RU3
 
Posts: 2740
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:32 am
Location: [redacted]

Postby Access Denied » Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:11 am

cartoonsyndicate wrote:I do in fact think that Roswell was more than that. From RU forum: (The quoted speaker was Barry Goldwater):

"I used to receive a hundred calls a year from people who wanted me to get into the Green Room at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, because that's where the Air Force stored all the material gathered on UFOs. I once asked Curtis LeMay if I could get in that room, and he just gave me holy hell. He said, 'Not only can't you get into it but don't you ever mention it to me again.' Now, with the millions of planets that we know are up there, it's hard for me to believe that ours is the only goddam one that has things that can think walking around on it. So when people tell me they've seen UFOs, I don't say they haven't. In fifteen thousand hours of flying, I've never seen one, but I've talked to pilots who have. I talked to an airline crew that swore up and down that an object came alongside of them one night, and before they could do anything it vanished. We lost a military pilot who went up to intercept strange lights and never came back. His airplane disappeared, too. I won't argue for or against."

(The New Yorker, April 25, 1988, p 70)

First of all it’s the “Blue (Book?) Room” not green. :)

So LeMay allegedly tells Goldwater he can’t get into this alleged room and this has what to do with Roswell? You know Roswell wasn’t even a Blue Book case and this was before the Blue Book files had been declassified (first in 1974 then again in 1976 with the names removed) right?

Goldwater even said he had no idea what was supposed to be in there…

http://www.skepticfiles.org/ufo1/goldltrs.htm

To answer your questions, I have never gained access to the so-called "Blue Room" at Wright Patterson, so I have no idea what is in it. I have no idea of who controls the flow of "need-to-know" because, frankly, I was told in such an emphatic way that it was none of my business that I've never tried to made it my business since.


Did you also know when Goldwater was asked by a reporter about his interest in flying saucers he replied, "I'd like to see one sometime - sober."?

http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2006-10- ... uncut/full

And…

Goldwater's interest in extraterrestrial visitors persisted, and there are some oddball docs saved in the Goldwater files at the Arizona Historical Foundation, including some sent to Goldwater purporting to be once top-secret memos on Operation Majestic 12, an alleged super-secret committee looking into flying saucers. There are additional nutty documents suggesting that alien visitations are connected to the discovery of the Earth's hollowness, an inner world one can enter through the North Pole called the Enchanted Continent. There's no indication of why Goldwater retained these daft dossiers. Maybe he just forgot to throw them out.

So it appears what we have here again is nothing more than unsubstantiated rumors… rumors that more than likely originated from UFOlogy itself.

cartoonsyndicate wrote:Scepticism is good. Gratuitous debunkery, not so good. The two impulses are separated by a narrow line. Apperception of history is theory, not fact. That's what makes it worth discussing.

Perhaps but I see a lot of people going in circles and ending up right back where they started as you yourself so eloquently put it…

cartoonsyndicate wrote:Seems like we're no closer to the truth than since Ken Arnold's sighting. It's all simply speculation based on encounters with the highly strange and an acceptance of Drake's Equation. All we really know for sure is that the phenomenon exists.


Who was is it that said “Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it”?
Men go and come but Earth abides.
User avatar
Access Denied
1 of the RU3
 
Posts: 2740
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:32 am
Location: [redacted]

Postby cartoonsyndicate » Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:21 pm

Who was is it that said “Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it”?


George Santayana

And my statement was in no way an example of the Santayana conundrum. Rather it was a dictum expressing the need to keep an open mind- just as Barry Goldwater did.

Scepticism is good. Gratuitous debunkery, not so good. The two impulses are separated by a narrow line. Apperception of history is theory, not fact. That's what makes it worth discussing.


And as to the post written by Brian Parks and posted by Serp:

He concludes that if the documents are indeed fabrications, the most likely explanation is that he, Shandera and Doty were all dupes of some Government plan, for reasons that are not clear.


I agree 100% with that statement. In recent interviews a decade after Bill Moore left the public UFO scene he has said the same thing.


To that list of the snookered I would add Stan Friedman although, among them, Friedman was the only one acting in good faith.

cs
amidst the growing ripples and wiry bamboos, broken in youth like the teeth of a mutant.. Afterburn, ca 1978
User avatar
cartoonsyndicate
Suspended
 
Posts: 851
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 12:10 pm
Location: The Borg

Postby Access Denied » Sat Feb 17, 2007 8:50 pm

Serpentime wrote:Brian Parks has just posted this response:


http://ufoconspiracy.com/reports/author ... ltants.htm

Brian Parks, tBParks@TORRNET.COM. The man who remembered seeing a page of the Special Operations Manual 1-01 somewhere else and told his story to Bob and Ryan Wood.


Hmm… sounds similar to (Clerk Typist) Sgt. Clifford Stone’s claim that he “accidentally” saw the “Alien Autopsy” film when he was in military… that is before Ray Santilli admitted it was hoax… oops.

Brian Parks wrote:Although Stanton Friedman, who I have known since 1984, has already denied this I contacted him recently for comments on the record:

The normally diplomatic Friedman replied:

“I am so sick of this crap being repeated over and over again. I appreciate your keeping me appraised…..I did not approve of anybody faking any documents. Ever. When Bill first released the EBE, I was living in Canada. It was a fait accompli. I have said I wished he had said that he was blacking out portions to be sure that if somebody else came forward, he really had the same documents. I never told Brad that I approved of putting out fake documents. NEVER.”

But it’s OK if he (Stanton Friedman) does it?

http://roswellfiles.com/storytellers/Friedman.htm

There are some very disturbing claims made in the book Crash at Corona. The authors place great emphasis on this excerpt from the Twining Letter:

"The phenomenon is something real and not visionary or fictitious"

This is in a book that is attempting to show that an alien spaceship crashed in New Mexico in July 1947, that the Air Force knows this, and is hiding the truth. It is at best deliberately misleading, and at worst totally dishonest.

When discussing this quote, Friedman quite conveniently omits that the Twining letter states that this is only an opinion.

"2. It is the opinion that:
a. The phenomenon is something real and not visionary or fictitious. "

Further, Friedman neglects to include that Twining went out of his way to state that this opinion was based on eyewitness reports and some small studies only, and that it should be kept in mind that:

"The lack of physical evidence in the shape of crash recovered exhibits which would undeniably prove the existence of these subjects."

So in a book attempting to demonstrate a conspiracy by the AF to cover up the procession of a crashed alien spaceship, Friedman not only quotes out of context from the Twining letter, but deliberately omits that the letter also stated that there is no "physical evidence in the shape of crash recovered exhibits". Had the Air Force indeed been in possession of a crashed interplanetary craft- as Friedman claims- Twining would surely have commented on it.

The Twining letter further states that "It is possible within the present (1947) U.S. knowledge… to construct a piloted aircraft which has the general description of the object in sub-paragraph (e) above …"

Which again conflicts with Friedman's concept that the Air Force had a crashed alien spaceship. Unless, of course, the "alien spaceship" used 1947 technology.


And…

Crash at Corona quotes from the hoaxed Schulgen* letter to the effect that:

"For the purpose of analysis and evaluation of these so-called "flying saucers," the object sighted is being assumed to be a manned craft of unknown origin. While there remains the possibility of Russian manufacture, based on perspective thinking and actual accomplishments of the Germans, it is the considered opinion of some elements that the object may in fact represent an interplanetary craft of some kind."
(Emphasis in Crash at Corona)

* (This document was called into question when it was first found by William Moore of MJ-12 fame.)

There are two problems with this.

First if a spaceship was recovered by the Air Force at Roswell (as Friedman asserts), then the Air Force would not bother with possibilities. They would know for a fact that it was an interplanetary craft of some kind, complete with little grey men, and they wouldn't consider "the possibility of Russian manufacture".

Second, the real document says something totally different!

"For the purpose of analysis and evaluation of the so-called "flying saucer" phenomenon, the object sighted is being assumed to be a manned aircraft, of Russian origin, and based on the perspective thinking and actual accomplishments of the Germans."

Not a single surmise at all about interplanetary craft.


Who here hasn’t seen Stan pull this stunt?...

Friedman has been also known for his use of The NSA Documents. He usually appears on TV waving an FOIA document from NSA on UFOs that is totally blacked out, and asking why this is necessary unless they are hiding something about UFOs. Friedman makes these comments even though he knows full well that there is probably no UFO info in the NSA documents, just as he is fully aware of comments made by Tom Deuley.

Friedman seems reluctant to discuss the fact that what he is showing is a 21 page document from NSA to the Judge in a 1980 FOIA lawsuit by CAUS, explaining why the documents couldn’t be released at that time with less blacked out material. Judge Gesell endorsed the NSA position- A decision that was later upheld by the Supreme Court.

Tom Deuley worked at NSA for 4 years in the mid-70s. In late June 1987, He presented a paper at a MUFON conference entitled "Four years at NSA - NO UFOs." When he went to work at NSA, he told them outright that he was interested in the subject of UFOs and that he would be going to the MUFON conference. He even met with some officials of NSA, and according to him, he didn't "get any feeling that they even cared about UFOs."

In fact, because of his stated interest in UFOs, NSA selected him to review its UFO-related material! "I believe I saw or held copies of the large majority of documents withheld in that FOIA suit. Though there may have been exceptions among the documents that I did not see, none of the documents I was aware of had any information of scientific value."

"The documents ... are not worth the effort, in terms of forwarding the effort of UFO research."

"I concluded that UFOs do not have any importance at NSA."

Tom Deuley eventually became an official in two UFO organizations: MUFON and FUFOR.

Later, NSA re-released the same documents with the majority of the documents not blocked out. It turns out, in many cases, that when the Soviets would use the term "unidentifiable object", the NSA translators would use the term UFO. They also added "Probably a balloon" after most of these comments, referring to Soviet radar calibration balloons. The judge’s decision is clearly borne out to be a good decision as these documents aren’t about UFOs as it is used by the UFOlogists and the general public.

These are Communication Intelligence reports. The reports indicate the station that made the report, and could give the Soviets information on which transmitters we were listening and what we know about their actions. The main sections still blacked out are those about the locale of where the reports were made.

Here are some formerly blacked out sections in the re-released NSA documents:

"One UFO (probably a balloon) moved from/ 22 nm Se (Blacked out) toward East, Alt 49,200 ft. Revw"

"One UFO (probably a balloon) moved from (Blacked out) toward East and passed North of (Blacked out) South of (Blacked out) alt. 46,000 - 49,200 ft"

"One UFO (probably a balloon) moved from (Blacked out) toward NE and faded (Blacked out) Alt. 46,000 - 59,200 ft. [...] Two UFO (probably balloons) moved passed (Blacked out) South of (Blacked out) and South of (Blacked out) and then faded. Alt. 44,00 - 49,200 ft."

"Two UFO (probably balloons) moved 43 Nautical miles 190 degrees off (Blacked out) and faded 22 Nautical miles 178 degrees off (Blacked out)"

"One UFO (probably a balloon) moved from (Blacked out) and (Blacked out) faded 190 Nautical miles East of (Blacked out) Alt. 52,500 Ft."

"One UFO (probably a balloon) moved from 32 NM 90 deg off (Blacked out) toward East and faded 64 NM 90 deg off (Blacked out) Alt. 47,640 - 49,200"

"Three UFO (probably balloons) moved from (Blacked out) toward West slowly and faded (Blacked out) Alt. 69,000 - 79,000 Ft."

"Four UFO (probably balloons) moved from West of (Blacked out) Alt. 11,500 - 13,100 Ft. B. 0455 - 0520, One UFO (probably a balloon) moved from East of (Blacked out) toward South and faded East of (Blacked out) alt. 11,500 - 13,100 ft. C. 0734 - 1025, Three UFO (probably balloons) moved slowly from South of (Blacked out) toward West and passed (Blacked out) and (Blacked out) alt. 49,200 - 66,000 Ft."

It goes on and on in this fashion, showing that what Tom Deuley said about NSA and their interest in UFOs was absolutely correct.

One item of interest is that Friedman himself is mentioned, indirectly, in the NSA documents!

Friedman had pushed a Cuban UFO report that was supposedly picked up by radio as real. Since it was reported to have been picked up by radio, it was investigated by the NSA and found to be phony! To the best of my knowledge, Friedman has never addressed his being mentioned in the NSA documents in any of his presentations about UFOs.

There’s even more examples at the above link.
Men go and come but Earth abides.
User avatar
Access Denied
1 of the RU3
 
Posts: 2740
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:32 am
Location: [redacted]

Postby cartoonsyndicate » Sat Feb 17, 2007 10:38 pm

Phil Klass lives! Thank ya jeeeeezizzzzzzz! http://www.balloons.com/ "the world's best Foil and Latex balloons for all occasions" Since 1947, I suppose.

Hang down your head Tom Deuley... Poor boy, you’re bound to die
http://www.niehs.nih.gov/kids/lyrics/tomdooley.htm

Now I see why Springer spaganked you. You're nothing more than cut-and-paste assassin- you and your bride, Shhawna. Hell- we can all do that. No?

I've lost all respect for you.

cs
Last edited by cartoonsyndicate on Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
amidst the growing ripples and wiry bamboos, broken in youth like the teeth of a mutant.. Afterburn, ca 1978
User avatar
cartoonsyndicate
Suspended
 
Posts: 851
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 12:10 pm
Location: The Borg

Postby Access Denied » Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:27 pm

cartoonsyndicate wrote:Now I see why Springer spaganked you. You're nothing more than cut-and-paste assassin. Hell- we can all do that. No?

I've lost all respect for you.

In that case I guess I shouldn't bother posting the unpublished frist-hand Roswell testimony I have to share that Springer saw fit to delete on ATS here either?

I’m sorry if my opinion (and the evidence I use to back it up) that Roswell is a myth and Stanton Friedman is a charlatan of the highest order offends you.
Men go and come but Earth abides.
User avatar
Access Denied
1 of the RU3
 
Posts: 2740
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:32 am
Location: [redacted]

Postby cartoonsyndicate » Sat Feb 17, 2007 11:31 pm

Access Denied wrote:
cartoonsyndicate wrote:Now I see why Springer spaganked you. You're nothing more than cut-and-paste assassin. Hell- we can all do that. No?

I've lost all respect for you.

In that case I guess I shouldn't bother posting the unpublished frist-hand Roswell testimony I have to share that Springer saw fit to delete on ATS here either?

I’m sorry if my opinion (and the evidence I use to back it up) that Roswell is a myth and Stanton Friedman is a charlatan of the highest order offends you.


It does offend me. Big time. Take your first hand testimony an stick where the sun don't shine.

cs
amidst the growing ripples and wiry bamboos, broken in youth like the teeth of a mutant.. Afterburn, ca 1978
User avatar
cartoonsyndicate
Suspended
 
Posts: 851
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 12:10 pm
Location: The Borg

Postby Serpentime » Sun Feb 18, 2007 2:34 am

Access Denied wrote:
In that case I guess I shouldn't bother posting the unpublished frist-hand Roswell testimony I have to share that Springer saw fit to delete on ATS here either?


This is only my opinion, but I wouldn't mind having a look.

Perhaps we can read first, then decide for ourselves afterward?


Serpentime
"Life's fantasy... To be locked away, and still to think you're free."

-- Ronnie Dio
User avatar
Serpentime
Valued Contributor
 
Posts: 416
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 6:38 pm
Location: The Tree of Knowledge

Next

Google

Return to UFOs

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests

cron