Where all of those myths came from and why?

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Postby ryguy » Sun Feb 18, 2007 6:07 am

Access Denied wrote:In that case I guess I shouldn't bother posting the unpublished frist-hand Roswell testimony I have to share that Springer saw fit to delete on ATS here either?


Go for it if you like. It certainly wouldn't be deleted. If you decide to post it, just make sure to create a new thread for it.

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Postby Max » Sun Feb 18, 2007 3:12 pm

To Access Denied: I for one would not be opposed to your posting anything. I think adults can make up their own minds as to the validity of claims they may read.

Having said that however, I have to tell you that after reading your many posts, including some to me where you ask questions that had already been answered, that you are on a mission. Your mission is one of amateur debunkery. You may realize this or perhaps you may be doing it subconsciously. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. But not ONCE when you have posted something have I been impressed with the validity of the so called evidence or your skewed analysis.

You are marching to your own drummer, my friend. If that makes you happy and fulfilled, so be it. But for many of us your manipulations of what you call evidence in order to try to make it seem what it is not, and in order to support your illusionary (or should I say delusionary) view on a particular subject IS offensive. If you want to answer back by saying it is evidence, that of course is your privilige, but don't for a minute think you are fooling anyone but yourself. There are too many clear-headed thinkers here to buy off on your 2+2=8 theories. Your traveling circus may do much better somewhere else.
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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Sun Feb 18, 2007 3:29 pm

Max wrote:To Access Denied: I for one would not be opposed to your posting anything. I think adults can make up their own minds as to the validity of claims they may read.

Having said that however, I have to tell you that after reading your many posts, including some to me where you ask questions that had already been answered, that you are on a mission. Your mission is one of amateur debunkery. You may realize this or perhaps you may be doing it subconsciously. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. But not ONCE when you have posted something have I been impressed with the validity of the so called evidence or your skewed analysis.

You are marching to your own drummer, my friend. If that makes you happy and fulfilled, so be it. But for many of us your manipulations of what you call evidence in order to try to make it seem what it is not, and in order to support your illusionary (or should I say delusionary) view on a particular subject IS offensive. If you want to answer back by saying it is evidence, that of course is your privilige, but don't for a minute think you are fooling anyone but yourself. There are too many clear-headed thinkers here to buy off on your 2+2=8 theories. Your traveling circus may do much better somewhere else.


Well praise the Lord! Max and Toon are in total agreement!! How are ya, Max?

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Postby Max » Sun Feb 18, 2007 3:42 pm

I almost said, if you can't get it past toon, our least clear-headed thinker, there's no chance you'll get it past anybody else. He's like our canary in the mines!

:D
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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Sun Feb 18, 2007 3:49 pm

Max wrote:I almost said, if you can't get it past toon, our least clear-headed thinker, there's no chance you'll get it past anybody else. He's like our canary in the mines!

:D


as in the canary's last stand? stoned on the fumes?

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Postby Max » Sun Feb 18, 2007 4:02 pm

How 'ya doin, toon? Campaigning for Mitch Romney yet??
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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Sun Feb 18, 2007 4:28 pm

Max wrote:How 'ya doin, toon? Campaigning for Mitch Romney yet??


nah. i threw my support to krusty the clown.

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Postby Access Denied » Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:36 pm

Max wrote:Your mission is one of amateur debunkery. You may realize this or perhaps you may be doing it subconsciously.

I see so in your opinion it takes a professional to see through all the BS?

Max wrote:But for many of us your manipulations of what you call evidence in order to try to make it seem what it is not, and in order to support your illusionary (or should I say delusionary) view on a particular subject IS offensive.

That’s funny, that’s exactly how I see the current (and past) state of UFOlogy and those who stand to profit it from it one way or another.
Last edited by Access Denied on Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:45 pm

That’s funny, that’s exactly how I see the current (and past) state of UFOlogy and those who stand to profit it from it one way or another.


no-one here profits from it. in fact- no-one profits from it. you've wasted 30 years.

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Postby Max » Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:52 pm

Access Denied wrote:
Max wrote:Your mission is one of amateur debunkery. You may realize this or perhaps you may be doing it subconsciously.

I see so in your opinion it takes a professional to see through all the BS?

Max wrote:But for many of us your manipulations of what you call evidence in order to try to make it seem what it is not, and in order to support your illusionary (or should I say delusionary) view on a particular subject IS offensive.

That’s funny, that’s exactly how I see the current (and past) state of UFOlogy and those who stand to profit it from it one way or another.


To answer your question, NO it does not take a professional, But it does take something credible that will stand up under scrutiny. Your logic just doesn't wash. In fact this statement that you have just made is a perfect example. To say that what I was stating is that it takes a professional to debunk something is typical of your faulty logic and of attempting to make something seem what it is not.

Your attempts to use faulty logic and manipulation is extremely amateurish. Look up the word.

I do agree that there are those who manipulate fact, evidence, or what have you, in order to buttress their case FOR trying to prove something. You are doing the exact thing they are doing, except you are trying to dis-prove something. What's the difference? Manipulation is manipulation regardless of the flavor. The problem is some of these people are quite good at doing that, and it takes some work on the part of the rest of us to show that is what they are doing. In your case, you are not very good at it , and your manipulations are quite easy to see through. Amateurish.
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Postby ryguy » Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:14 pm

Guys - let's stick to the issues, try to avoid going after eachother in a personal way. Feel free to dissect whatever you like in someone's post that you disagree with. As you've all pointed out - here, a good solid argument/discussion with supporting data is respected. Everyone here has done their best to approach issues using that method, and that's appreciated. You guys obviously understand the nature and flavor of this place.

Access Denied - I think what's gotten nerves raw is when someone takes a tone of having all of the answers. One thing we've learned here is that no one has all of the answers. And when someone (robertfenix?) starts pronouncing that they've figured it out - sans evidence...it irks us as much as if someone comes along and claims they know for a FACT that Roswell was a crashed alien spaceship...without supporting evidence. It goes both ways - and it requires respect for the level of expertise, experience, and knowledge of the individuals reading the writing here. We're all equals here...a sort of Knights of the Roundtable. Searching for Truth. And we're all on the same side.

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Postby Access Denied » Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:27 pm

Thanks Ry, I apologize if I come across as having all the answers. I get that a lot… especially from my wife. If you think I’m bad you should try working for the research scientists I have to work with every day for over the last 20 years.

To be sure my “working” hypothesis after many years of personal research in this field is Roswell (and it’s offshoots such as MJ-12 etc.) is a combination of myth and fabrication but I’m certainly willing to consider NEW evidence to the contrary.

Obviously I did not write the material I cited in this thread however I believe it raises some serious credibility issues about those who have promoted the Roswell and MJ-12 story. If the specific issues raised have already been addressed elsewhere then by all means please enlighten me (the point of this thread!) however I also ask that any criticism of the material please be directed where credit is due…

http://www.roswellfiles.com/credits.htm

The idea for Roswell Files was spawned by the countless threads The Roswell Incident has caused in Usenet Newsgroups such as alt.alien.visitors, alt.alien.research and sci.skeptic. It was obvious over the years that some Usenet denizens (both Believers and Skeptics) had done their homework, and the spirited debates seemed to go on forever. It seemed a shame that their work would not be published in a more permanent venue.

It was equally obvious that there were many who attempted to argue their points based not any personal research, but on emotions and their need to believe in UFOs and the Great Conspiracy. They would argue vociferously, yet were woefully ignorant of the vast amount of evidence gathered (either Pro or Con) regarding the single most researched and written-about UFO incident ever.

It is to all these people that we give all the credit for the creation of the site. Visitors are encouraged to visit Usenet archives, such as Google, to acquaint themselves with the discussions that were the inspiration for this site.

Of course, it is in the nature of some that they have to have someone to blame (or praise!) for the content. All flames, critiques, corrections, vitriolic abuse, gentle chiding... as well as congratulations, loud applause, kudos, and kind words... should be directed to The Webmaster.
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Postby ryguy » Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:05 pm



Phenomenal website - thanks for posting! My favorite section is on Bessie Brazel. Yes...let's ignore the testimony of the daughter who was actually there... lol. Unbelievable.

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Postby Access Denied » Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:32 am

(saw this on UFO Updates today)

Brad Sparks (mentioned earlier in this thread) has some "new" revelations about the origins of the MJ-12 hoax...

MUFON 2007 INTERNATIONAL UFO SYMPOSIUM PROCEEDINGS

“AN ESTIMATE OF THE SITUATION: THE EXTRATERRESTRIAL HYPOTHESIS”

http://www.mufon.com/documents/2007MUFO ... ations.pdf

I haven't a chance to go through it all with a fine tooth comb yet (it’s long and very well written) but it appears Stanton Friedman (among others) may have been more “complicit” then he would like us to believe as I (and no doubt many others) suspected.

Hmm... a "disinformation” loop... interesting concept.

Remind me again why anybody ever believed Doty was “connected” and ever had any “official” knowledge of UFOs? :roll:
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Postby Zep Tepi » Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:22 pm

If ever there was something that should be labelled ESSENTIAL READING, this most definitely is it.

I am still reading this phenomenal writeup and taking notes as I do so - the intention being to provide smoking gun" highlights. I think I'll have to give up on that though, I'm only at page 20 and already I have two pages of notes!.

My favourites so far:
As Friedman admits, if MJ-12 is a hoax “somebody had to do a lot of homework that no one else has done” except Moore and Friedman29 – who however had passed their “homework” on to Doty/AFOSI. When Moore and Friedman saw many of the same “facts” from their own research appearing in these supposedly leaked classified documents they saw it as confirmation, rather than as clever echoing of their own ideas and research.


And...

Moore’s candid description of how his information given to Doty was within months turned into a fake document, the Aquarius Carter Briefing, planted on another UFOlogist, is an important and useful model for understanding the AFOSI disinformation methodology as carried out by Doty the “Sparrow,” the “Falcon” Colonel and their AFOSI counterintelligence cohorts.


Like I said above, this article is ESSENTIAL READING, what are you waiting for?!

Thanks for providing the link AD :D

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