Where all of those myths came from and why?

General UFO stories

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Postby wetsystems » Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:05 pm

Access Denied wrote:(saw this on UFO Updates today)

Brad Sparks (mentioned earlier in this thread) has some "new" revelations about the origins of the MJ-12 hoax...

MUFON 2007 INTERNATIONAL UFO SYMPOSIUM PROCEEDINGS

“AN ESTIMATE OF THE SITUATION: THE EXTRATERRESTRIAL HYPOTHESIS”

http://www.mufon.com/documents/2007MUFO ... ations.pdf

I haven't a chance to go through it all with a fine tooth comb yet (it’s long and very well written) but it appears Stanton Friedman (among others) may have been more “complicit” then he would like us to believe as I (and no doubt many others) suspected.

Hmm... a "disinformation” loop... interesting concept.

Remind me again why anybody ever believed Doty was “connected” and ever had any “official” knowledge of UFOs? :roll:


It doesn't surprise me that you'd glomm onto the Brad Sparks speech at the Denver Mufon convention.

He once insinuated that Stan Friedman was complicit in the Bill Moore scheme to proffer false MJ12 documents (a charge that was originated by that notorious enemy of Stan Friedman- Phil Klass.) Friedman has continually denied this charge- and since there is no evidence to back-up the charge, Stan's denial must stand.

While I've yet to read the Sparks article I feel that this apologia ought to be set before the potential readers of this forum as a way of clearing the air, so to speak.

While it is well known that I'm an admirer of Stan Friedman (I've never made no secret of that) I feel this input is still important on this issue at least to preshadow (preempt) hidden agendae.

Richard Doty (AKA Sylvestor) is a different matter. I'll get into that later.
If anyone here wants my take, let me know by posting here.

cs
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Postby ScaRZ » Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:40 pm

wetsystems wrote: If anyone here wants my take, let me know by posting here.


Toon go ahead let me see your take on things.
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Postby wetsystems » Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:29 pm

Scarz,
It all began on July 7th, 1947. I was 6 months old at the time.

Ken Arnold, Phil Corso, Don Schmidt, Keven Randle, Bill Moore, and Stan Friedman have ripped the scab off this wound. The cover-up has been the highest imperative of the alphabets from the very beginning..

A concerted effort was devised (after the Robertson Panel) to confuse and confound any and all earnest investigators into this event.

You're familiar with these efforts, I'm sure.

But now there is yet more: the insidious introduction by the spooks of a new theory: viral meme scam. The truth is that there is no such thing- except to the extent that the spooks have introduced that nuance into the Ufologist community per se, and it has been adopted by otherwise bright investigators as truth.

If a semi-bright spook wanted to confuse the field, perhaps he'd introduce Jungian arch-types. Why not? Or the philosophy of Bishop Berkeley regurgitated through a chosen philosopher to the committed- like a Dan Smith, perhaps?

But why attack and subvert the UFO community? Like I've said before (probably to the point of nausea) if there is ever to be an uncovering of the great secret it will be through the efforts of those who have yet to lose their exquisite connection to the highly strange. It's 11 o'clock. Do you know where your children are?
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:52 pm

wetsystems wrote:But now there is yet more: the insidious introduction by the spooks of a new theory: viral meme scam. The truth is that there is no such thing-


I know you like to think your knowledge is vast, expansive, and knows no boundaries. But you happen to be wrong in this latest judgment. Information is the common element between genetics and ideas. Until you understand the science of information, and how it acts in recombinant and mutative manners, you are simply flapping your gums in the breeze. In fact, the very concept behind a religion and its attendant dogma is the single best example one could give of a viral meme. So if you are gonna claim that viral memes are falsehoods created by big, bad govmint agents then you are going to have to come up with an alternate explanation for why so many people adhere to religious beliefs.

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Postby wetsystems » Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:11 pm

In fact, the very concept behind a religion and its attendant dogma is the single best example one could give of a viral meme


please elaborate
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Postby Zep Tepi » Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:31 pm

Starting at the beginning is always helpful. Actually, the beginning in this case was just a couple of weeks earlier. June 24th 1947 was the day Kenneth Arnold saw 9 strange shapes in the sky which he described as a saucer being skipped across water. Note, he never described the objects as saucers or disks. In actual fact, he was quite specific about the shapes he saw, describing them as being reminiscent of "flying wings".

That is very interesting. Made even more interesting by the fact there was an aircraft around at that time that had that exact same shape.

Any guesses? ;)

Kenneth Arnold's sighting caused a huge furore at the time and flying "saucers" were suddenly thrust into the imagination of a large proportion of the population - reaching even isolated ranchers out in New Mexico.

Some people will have us believe that one of these flying-saucers-from-outer-space (!) crashed in the desert near Roswell NM in late June 1947, barely a few weeks before the famous Arnold sighting. The rancher who first found the wreckage, Mac Brazel, didn't think there was anything unusual about the wreckage until he heard about the "flying disks" more than 3 weeks after first finding it. Because he hadn't come across this kind of wreckage before, it was only natural for Brazel to start wondering if there might be some kind of connection.

If this wreckage was supposed to belong to a crashed flying saucer - and remember, many UFO researchers INSIST that to be the case - one would expect the wreckage to constitute very solid evidence in supporting that claim.

So, what did Mac find out there in the desert? Let's see what Mac himself said at the time thanks to this interview he gave with the Roswell Daily Chronicle on July 9th, 1947:

Emphasis added
..."came upon a large area of bright wreckage made up on rubber strips, tinfoil, a rather tough paper and sticks."


    Rubber Strips
    Tinfoil
    Tough Paper
    Sticks
Hardly what one would call the best materials for constructing a flying saucer, no? Remember, this is Brazel's account from the time it happened - Not remembered over 30 long years later.

The materials he found are described in more detail further on:
Emphasis added
When the debris was gathered up the tinfoil, paper, tape, and sticks made a bundle about three feet long and 7 or 8 inches thick, while the rubber made a bundle about 18 or 20 inches long and about 8 inches thick. In all, he estimated, the entire lot would have weighed maybe five pounds.

There was no sign of any metal in the area which might have been used for an engine and no sign of any propellers of any kind, although at least one paper fin had been glued onto some of the tinfoil.

There were no words to be found anywhere on the instrument, although there were letters on some of the parts. Considerable scotch tape and some tape with flowers printed upon it had been used in the construction.

No strings or wire were to be found but there were some eyelets in the paper to indicate that some sort of attachment may have been used.


Now, if anyone could explain to me how any of the above could be construed as parts of an alien-built flying saucer, I would be eternally grateful :)

More to come.

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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:41 pm

wetsystems wrote:
In fact, the very concept behind a religion and its attendant dogma is the single best example one could give of a viral meme


please elaborate


There really is little need to elaborate, if you understand how the viral meme propagates & infects. If you do not, then perhaps you should withhold your judgment until you do.

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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:45 pm

Zep Tepi wrote:That is very interesting. Made even more interesting by the fact there was an aircraft around at that time that had that exact same shape.

Any guesses? ;)


Good ole Jack Northrop!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_YB-35

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Postby Zep Tepi » Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:04 pm

I had a feeling you might answer that one, Ray :)

There is a strong Northrop connection with the following plane too, the Horten Ho 229...

Link to Wiki

Interesting ;)

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Postby Serpentime » Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:55 am

Prior to the Arnold sighting at Mount Rainier, Washington, on June 24, 1947, there was only a single flying XB-35 prototype which had flown only 19 flights (for a total of 24 hours in the air) in California, and was grounded for mechanical malfunctions on September 11, 1946. It remained grounded until February, 1948.

The second XB-35 prototype was first flown two days (June 26th) after Arnold's alleged sighting of nine objects. Eight flights - logging a total of approximately 12 hours in the air - were flown at Muroc AAF (I believe?) before this plane was also grounded.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/systems/b-35-prob.htm


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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:14 am

Zep Tepi wrote:Some people will have us believe that one of these flying-saucers-from-outer-space (!) crashed in the desert near Roswell NM in late June 1947, barely a few weeks before the famous Arnold sighting.


There are two other points that I have made to plenty of people about Roswell that should be considered:

1) It is postulated by the "true believers" that this was a crash of a vehicle that utilized technology that was WAAAAAY beyond our flight technology of that day, and some even contend it is much more advanced than what we have even today. If it is so advanced compared to us, don't you think the "aliens" would also have made HUGE leaps in reducing the probability of fatal accidents just like this? As comparitive evidence, I would ask anyone to do some research on the aviation accident statistics (esp. in large, commercial aircraft) from the 40s up to today. The relevant metric to reseach is the "per departure hull loss rate" (i.e. how many hull losses divided by the total revenue takeoffs in any given year). This number has gone down EACH and EVERY year since the initiation of passenger airline service in the 30s. In addition to this, you will also notice a SIGNIFICANT decrease in this number from approximately 1970 onwards, and not by accident (no pun intended). The 60s and 70s saw the FAA beginning to mandate advances in safety systems, such as:

a) Stall Warning systems (stick shakers)
b) Flight Data and Voice Recorders
c) Ground Proximity Warning Systems
d) Weather Radar Systems

And throughout the 80s and 90s these trends continued with such safety systems as:

e) ENHANCED Ground Proximity Warning Systems (digital terrain maps)
f) Traffic Collision Avoidance Systems (TCAS I and II).
g) Windshear Alerting and Guidance Systems (WAGS)
h) Automated Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B)
i) Traffic Information Service-Broadcast (TIS-B)

And this is what we have achieved with our "primitive" human technology to reduce the incidences of aircraft crashes. In considering Roswell, are we just supposed to assume that the aliens have not also gone WAY beyond us in their technology so as to make crashes a virtual non-occurrence? It seems like a non-sequitor of giant proportions.

2) But OK, someone is likely to answer point #1 by simply saying "hey, accidents still happen, even if they are rare." Fine. I accept that. But now we need to consider that the "aliens" (if they are real) have obviously been under strict operational rules to maintain stealth and secrecy. I mean, they are not knocking on our doors and inviting themselves to dinner, now are there? The rules of OPSEC (and I know Serp and AD will back me on this) demand that you have contingency plans in place, and ready to be executed, in the case of the loss or exposure of an operational force to the subject (or "enemy"). So if it really was an alien craft that crashed in the desert in Roswell, are we to assume:

a) They were the only vehicle on this mission.
b) There were no other aliens monitoring them to ensure their success or keep an eye out for OPSEC breaches.
c) There were absolutely NO contingency plans in place to recover the bodies of the pilot(s) as well as the remains of their craft.
d) There were also no contingency plans that would direct that their craft and the remains of their pilot(s) be destroyed to PREVENT any further OPSEC breach.

If these "aliens" can go anywhere they wish in our skies, and have the ability to keep themselves secret for so long, how are we to also believe that any/all of these above points are also true???

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Postby wetsystems » Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:52 am

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:
wetsystems wrote:
In fact, the very concept behind a religion and its attendant dogma is the single best example one could give of a viral meme


please elaborate


There really is little need to elaborate, if you understand how the viral meme propagates & infects. If you do not, then perhaps you should withhold your judgment until you do.

Ray


So, were the Beatitudes a first century viral meme?
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Postby Access Denied » Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:18 am

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:The rules of OPSEC (and I know Serp and AD will back me on this) demand that you have contingency plans in place, and ready to be executed, in the case of the loss or exposure of an operational force to the subject (or "enemy").

Hence the "flying saucer" cover story... after all, who would believe it?

Oops. :lol:
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Postby wetsystems » Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:15 pm

In fact, the very concept behind a religion and its attendant dogma is the single best example one could give of a viral meme


An example of Ray's viral meme:

Blessed are the meek,
for they shall inherit the earth
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:31 pm

wetsystems wrote:So, were the Beatitudes a first century viral meme?


One example does not a convincing proof make. I could give you any other number of examples that perfectly fit the viral meme mold. I grew up Catholic, so believe me, I know them well:

1) The infallibility of the pope.
2) Don't eat meat on Fridays in lent, eat fish cuz God said so (& those fishermen need profits too!)
3) Wacking off is a sin, so you'd better not do it. The only holy function of your seed is to make more little Catholics...
4) And we need you to make LOTS of more little Catholics, so God also told me that using birth control is a sin too.
5) Priests cannot be married (so sayeth God, but apparantly he's ok with diddling innocent children).

Honestly, Toon, you are flat-out wrong on this position you have taken... and if you continue to argue it just because you always like arguments, you are gonna look silly. For example, you yourself have claimed how all religions are whacked... I am simply explaining to you why... they all have elements of viral memes that allow them to persist. And people will hijack religions, as we see in this day and age, to further their own political agendas. And how do they do that? Well, just inject a few more viral memes (you know those 72 virgins).

The great and mighty Toon is wrong, and he doesn't like it.
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