Where all of those myths came from and why?

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Postby wetsystems » Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:08 am

1) The journey is the reward. - Chinese Proverb
2) Whether you think you can or whether you think you can't, you're right. - Henry Ford
3) I want to know God's thoughts... the rest are details. -Albert Einstein
4) Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great. -Mark Twain
(Pay attention to this viral meme, Toon. You could someday become great if you internalize this meme and then virally pass it on.)
5) There is a tide in the affairs of men. Which taken at the flood, leads on to fortune; Omitted, all the voyage of their life Is bound in shallows and in miseries . - Julius Ceaser.
6) Love thy neighbor as thyself. - Jesus Christ


These aren't 'concepts' they're just a bunch of unrelated, out of context quotes that you've snarked up off the internet. Used as you do, they are trite and meaningless.

The meme that truly shook America in the twentieth century was this one from 1959:

Ward, don't ya think you were a little hard on the Beaver last night?


Best regards,

Mr. Clueless Widget
Last edited by wetsystems on Sun Aug 19, 2007 1:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Postby wetsystems » Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:31 am

Oh, and this unexpurgated eye-witness account of the Sermon on the Mount. Full of viral memes.

Jesus speaks

[music]
JESUS CHRIST:
How blest are those who know that He's a god. How blest are the sorrowful. They shall find consolation. How blest are those of gentle spirit. They shall have the earth for their possession. How blest are those who hunger and thirst to see right prevail.
RANDOM:
[cough cough]
JESUS:
They shall be satisfied. How blest are those whose hearts are pure. They shall see God...
MANDY:
Speak up!
MAN:
Shh.
BRIAN:
Quiet, Mum.
JESUS:
How blest are those of gentle...
MANDY:
Well, I can't hear a thing.
JESUS:
...spirit. They shall have the earth for their possession.
MANDY:
Let's go t' the stoning.
JESUS:
How blest are those...
MR. BIG NOSE:
Shh.
JESUS:
...who hunger and thirst...
BRIAN:
You can go to a stoning any time.
JESUS:
...to see right...
MANDY:
Oh, come on, Brian.
JESUS:
...prevail.
MR. BIG NOSE:
Will you be quiet?!
JESUS:
How blest are they who have suffered much...
MRS. BIG NOSE:
Don't pick your nose.
MR. BIG NOSE:
I wasn't picking my nose. I was scratching.
MRS. BIG NOSE:
You was picking it, while you was talking to that lady.
MR. BIG NOSE:
I wasn't!
MRS. BIG NOSE:
Leave it alone. Give it a rest.
MR. CHEEKY:
Do you mind? I can't hear a word he's saying.
MRS. BIG NOSE:
Don't you 'do you mind' me. I was talking to my husband.
MR. CHEEKY:
Well, go and talk to him somewhere else. I can't hear a bloody thing.
MR. BIG NOSE:
Don't you swear at my wife.
MR. CHEEKY:
I was only asking her to shut up, so I can hear what he's saying, Big Nose.
MRS. BIG NOSE:
Don't you call my husband 'Big Nose'!
MR. CHEEKY:
Well, he has got a big nose.
GREGORY:
Could you be quiet, please?
JESUS:
They shall have the earth...
GREGORY:
What was that?
JESUS:
...for their possession. How blest are those...
MR. CHEEKY:
I don't know. I was too busy talking to Big Nose.
JESUS:
...who hunger and thirst to see...
MAN #1:
I think it was 'Blessed are the cheesemakers.'
JESUS:
...right prevail.
MRS. GREGORY:
Ahh, what's so special about the cheesemakers?
GREGORY:
Well, obviously, this is not meant to be taken literally. It refers to any manufacturers of dairy products.
MR. CHEEKY:
See? If you hadn't been going on, we'd have heard that, Big Nose.
JESUS:
How blest are those who...
MR. BIG NOSE:
Hey. Say that once more; I'll smash your bloody face in.
MRS. GREGORY:
Ohh.
MR. CHEEKY:
Better keep listening. Might be a bit about 'Blessed are the big noses.'
BRIAN:
Oh, lay off him.
MR. CHEEKY:
Oh, you're not so bad yourself, Conkface. Where are you two from? Nose City?
MR. BIG NOSE:
One more time, mate; I'll take you to the f----' cleaners!
MRS. BIG NOSE:
Language!
JESUS:
...hunger and thirst to see...
MRS. BIG NOSE:
And don't pick your nose.
JESUS:
...right prevail.
MR. BIG NOSE:
I wasn't going to pick my nose. I was going to thump him!
MAN #2:
You hear that? Blessed are the Greek.
GREGORY:
The Greek?
MAN #2:
Mmm. Well, apparently, he's going to inherit the earth.
GREGORY:
Did anyone catch his name?
MRS. BIG NOSE:
You're not going to thump anybody.
MR. BIG NOSE:
I'll thump him if he calls me 'Big Nose' again.
MR. CHEEKY:
Oh, shut up, Big Nose.
MR. BIG NOSE:
Ah! All right. I warned you. I really will slug you so hard--
MRS. BIG NOSE:
Oh, it's the meek! Blessed are the meek! Oh, that's nice, isn't it? I'm glad they're getting something, 'cause they have a hell of a time.
MR. CHEEKY:
Listen. I'm only telling the truth. You have got a very big nose.
MR. BIG NOSE:
Hey. Your nose is going to be three foot wide across your face by the time I've finished with you!
MAN #1 and MAN #2:
Shhh.
MR. CHEEKY:
Well, who hit yours, then? Goliath's big brother?
MR. BIG NOSE:
Oh. Right. That's your last warning.
MRS. GREGORY:
Oh, do pipe down.
[MR. BIG NOSE slugs MRS. GREGORY]
Oh!
[MR. BIG NOSE and GREGORY fight]
GREGORY:
Oh!
MRS. GREGORY:
Awa?
MR. BIG NOSE:
Silly bitch. Get in the way on me?...
MRS. GREGORY:
Ow!...
MR. BIG NOSE:
Break it up-- oh. Oh!
MANDY:
Oh, come on. Let's go to the stoning.
BRIAN:
All right.
[music]
FRANCIS:
Well, blessed is just about everyone with a vested interest in the status quo, as far as I can tell, Reg.
REG:
Yeah. Well, what Jesus blatantly fails to appreciate is that it's the meek who are the problem.
JUDITH:
Yes, yes. Absolutely, Reg. Yes, I see.
MANDY:
Oh, come on, Brian, or they'll have stoned him before we get there.
BRIAN:
All right.
MR. CHEEKY:
Hey. Get off her. That's disgusting. Stop trying to do that. Hey, officer, intervene here. Attempted rape going on. It's the chap with the big nose's fault. He started it all.


Always look on the bright side of life, Mister Ray. And remember- it's just a flesh wound.

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And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:12 pm

wetsystems wrote:
1) The journey is the reward. - Chinese Proverb
2) Whether you think you can or whether you think you can't, you're right. - Henry Ford
3) I want to know God's thoughts... the rest are details. -Albert Einstein
4) Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great. -Mark Twain
(Pay attention to this viral meme, Toon. You could someday become great if you internalize this meme and then virally pass it on.)
5) There is a tide in the affairs of men. Which taken at the flood, leads on to fortune; Omitted, all the voyage of their life Is bound in shallows and in miseries . - Julius Ceaser.
6) Love thy neighbor as thyself. - Jesus Christ


These aren't 'concepts'


They are memes, you argumentative fool.

they're just a bunch of unrelated, out of context quotes that you've snarked up off the internet. Used as you do, they are trite and meaningless.


Out of context of memes? Hardly. But if Toon says it is so, I guess God has signed off on it, eh?

Best regards,

Mr. Clueless Widget


"Delivarence Bodine: You owe me...
Malik Brody: I owe you what?
Delivarence Bodine: Entertainment, chocolate boy wonder! "

--Drive (1997)

Ray
The Universe is an Integrated System. Operational, Functional, and Physical.
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Postby wetsystems » Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:14 pm

OK, meme-boy- contemplate this contagion:
"Beware of the man of one book," St. Thomas Aquinas
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Postby Access Denied » Thu Aug 23, 2007 5:33 am

Getting back on topic…

For those who don’t follow the UFO UpDates list where the dinosaurs of UFOlogy hang out, it seems some controversy has erupted over the MJ-12 paper Brad Sparks presented at the recent MUFON conference. I was surprised by Sparks’ conclusion that the MJ-12 hoax was an officially sponsored AFOSI disinformation campaign because it seems out of line with the depth and quality of the material presented. Apparently Sparks is unaware of how unimportant Doty’s position within the AFOSI really was at the time and somehow overlooked the obvious… perhaps he should read some of the stuff Ry, Zep, et. al. have uncovered here on RU. :D

As I said at the beginning of this thread, I believe the motivation of everyone involved was nothing more than personal gain (which obviously encompasses a whole slew of things including reinforcing one’s own beliefs for example)… i.e. at the most basic level (pardon the oversimplification) the answer to the question “Where all of those myths came from and why?” is…

Access Denied wrote:where = pulp “science” fiction
why = fun (for former government “intelligence” officials) + profit (for Moore, Friedman, et. al.)


Anyway, Mary Castner has possibly shed some light on the politics behind this paper with the following post…

(apparently Sparks was concerned about being sued)

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/upd ... -011.shtml

[emphasis mine]

From: Mary Castner <m.castner.nul>
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 12:09:04 -0500
Archived: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 21:49:36 -0400
Subject: Re: New Revelations On Origins Of MJ-12


I think we need a little clarification here.

First, Barry Greenwood never asked for his name to be removed from the paper, though there is conflict about sections of the text.

Second, Barry and I started this project. Barry wrote the original paper and was the lead author, not Brad. Brad likes to claim he is the lead because Barry had the courtesy to list his name first in the original since he was going to give the presentation. I personally supplied vast quantities of research material along with the Pandora files. Barry wrote up 27 pages or so and Brad would get another five or six for his conclusions. Pretty much the limit for a one hour presentation.

Third, I asked Brad to only present the paper originally as Barry would not attend, but he wanted to be co-author so that was agreed upon.

Fourth, Barry had a severe case of tendonitis in his right arm and took him a while to write the paper as a painful process, which he finally passed to Brad in mid-May, he immediately begin to cut it up and told me he didn't like it and it was full of issues that bothered him. Now I agreed there was information that would be good to add (non AFOSI in body of text) and that Barry's article was probably too general and not enough detail and probably too much history. Barry's paper was geared to a general reader and not an insiders presentation, which it became.

Fifth, after that neither Barry or I saw the paper again until a couple of days before it had to go to press, though I asked a number of times. When we finally got a copy it was greatly expanded to ~70 pages and reorganized. However, most of the AFOSI material that was suppose to be in Brad's conclusions was in the body of the text. Brad proceeded to attack Barry's theory of money motivation while at the same time gutting out supporting material. Brad even claimed lawsuit for quoting material and lack of references, etc. Not _once_ did Brad ever ask me or Barry for a specific reference relating to what Brad gutted out, except the "put the bread and butter on the table" one by Moore and because Brad was so adamant that anything that might support a money motivation theory not be included he started screaming he didn't want to be sued and it couldn't be included. Of course, you can't sue anyone for quoting and the 20 year old reference from CAUSE would have been provided.

Sixth, Barry thought it was too late to change as it had to go to press, but I insisted we call James Carrion. Some material could be added back into Barry's conclusions but he had to hurry. Then at deadline Brad refused to allow a single paragraph of Barry's material back into his conclusions and then telling Barry basically his stuff was crap and that he (Barry) should be grateful Brad removed it. After all he was doing this as a favor.

I might remind Brad that originally he was only asked to read the paper and would getting a free trip to the conference and a chance to meet people on MUFON's dime. Not a bad deal considering in the end he had a platform to present his AFOSI theory, access to all the research material and finally publication. I think Brad made out like a bandit.

I am going to restate this, Brad wanted to be co-author and James Carrion went along with it because he thought the person who read the paper should have some input. The argument continued over a couple of days about a single paragraph to be reinserted right down to the deadline hour and then Brad made a vague threat and whinny complaint, "To think I did this as a _favor_ to you and Mary - and I get dumped with a shitload of abuse before I can even recover from weeks of all-nighters. You should be thanking me for saving your ass from potential litigation to say nothing of just sheer massive errors numbering in the hundreds. I am going to sleep now and when I awake I had better not hear one more peep of abuse about any of this."

Some gall, gutting a co-author's statements without permission even if he didn't agree with the information, but that's what the conclusions were for. MUFON wouldn't add Barry's material back in without Brad's approval as co-author, though it was okay for Brad to remove material without Barry's consent.

I understand MUFON was caught between a rock and the deep blue on this one and the show had to go on. Barry understood that too. Brad's claim of abuse is downright ridiculous.

As for weeks of all-nighters I remind Brad again he didn't have to do this - only read the paper. It was Brad's decision to make all these changes and he was also writing another book at the same time and thus he put himself up against the wall. The reality is Brad wanted his fingers in the pie. The reality is Brad doesn't have a shred of proof this was an AFOSI activity only speculations woven into a plot that many want to believe. However, In fairness Brad added in some good non-AFOSI, Moore/Doty/Pratt material and picked up the slack of doing the references except those he didn't want to do and yours truly also did lookups that Brad requested of me.

Seventh, at the same time Brad announced he wasn't going to read the paper (too long anyway) and just briefly summarize the MJ-12 material and then go into the ufology community's problems about accepting unauthenticated documents. A worthy topic in itself, but that wasn't what people were paying to hear. At this point nobody knew what Brad was going to present or what percentage of what material and Barry said he didn't want his name on the _oral_ presentation _if_ Brad was going off into his AFOSI theory and unauthenticated documents as the main content of the presentation and not the Pratt material. Fortunately, Brad saw the light of day (maybe with a little help along the way) and stuck to the Pratt material and did a faultless job of presenting that material from what I hear.

Eighth, somewhere along the way Barry will present his view on the new material and motivations. Motivations are important and do have a baring on individuals behavior and actions.

Ninth, I bare some of the blame as my gut feeling was that Brad and Barry wouldn't get along as co-authors. Brad has a way of being strong headed and it's my way or the highway. Also, I was asleep at the switch and not in tune with Barry's chronic pain issue at the time. As a researcher on the project I could have taken his paper and gone through it, adding references before passing to Brad.

Tenth, Barry has reviewed what I am posting.


Mary Castner

Ouch.

Here are some interesting tidbits from Sparks' response…

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/upd ... -009.shtml

Brad Sparks wrote:Instead of fairly presenting my view, Barry expressed his own view in only partial agreement with me that there was in fact an official AFOSI disinformation operation against Paul Bennewitz (contrary to this absurdly mistaken posting which denies it was AFOSI at all), that it involved multiple AFOSI personnel (not just Doty), and that only when it expanded beyond Bennewitz was that done for odd personal motivations not explained in Barry's paragraph setting this out (presumably the "greed" factor, with no actual evidence anywhere of big bucks involved when MJ-12 surfaced in 1984). This is all set forth in Barry's May 11 draft.

No big bucks involved? The documents were “sent” to Jaime Shandera, a (granted small-time) TV and film producer, for crying out loud! And what about Stanton Friedman’s books, "Top Secret/Majic” (the original and “revised” version) and “Crash at Corona”, not to mention his lucrative UFO circuit lectures and regular TV appearances, for starters? I’d say milking the Roswell Myth has been very good to Friedman and Moore in particular over the last 30 years.

Also, regarding Sparks' forthcoming Roswell “revelations” mentioned in his summary and clarified in this post…

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/upd ... -004.shtml

…the following quote should put to rest any speculation about any significance in regards to the ETH…

Brad Sparks wrote:Barry's draft opened with a sneering attack on ETH "enthusiasts" which was not even relevant to the Pratt files and MJ-12, snidely commenting that the MJ-12 hoax was due to "UFO enthusiasts grasping at straws to defend the possibility of alien visitors to Earth." I don't accept ETH either but that is just inflammatory and inappropriate and I didn't want my name on that kind of unscholarly derision, which Barry put in the first paragraph of his draft for me to read aloud at MUFON.

I find it troubling that what may have had the potential to become (for anybody who was still on the fence) the long overdue definitive “nail in the coffin” for the MJ-12 hoax (and those who continue to profit from it) was apparently derailed in order to further Sparks’ own agenda?

Speaking of “ viral memes”, anybody else heard of “Project Mask”?

CUFON Special Report No. 3 - 10-September-1997
http://www.cufon.org/cufon/mask/projmask.htm

In early 1986, the outline of a proposal to create a UFO hoax was sent to several members of the "UFO community." One of the people who received this material was Dale Goudie of the UFO Reporting and Information Service in Seattle, Washington. We are aware of one other person who received the plan, and John Lear has stated in email that he was approached with this plan, but asserts that he had nothing to do with it. How many others were contacted and who these persons were are unknown.

The plan, dubbed "Project Mask," had the stated goal of conclusively proving whether or not elements of the US government actively managed UFO information. As you will see from the description of the plan below, it was presented as but the germ of an idea, born of frustration with the amount progress that UFO investigators had been able to make.

That this plan existed at all raises several possibilities all of which might have far reaching implications for UFOlogy. Without knowledge of people's actions, impossible to know in full, we are left with the several questions which the existence of this plan raises.

[snip]

1986 was an interesting time for such a proposal to appear. Remember that it was in the Spring of the following year that The MJ-12 briefing papers were released by Bill Moore, Jaime Shandera and Stanton Friedman, all of whom the author of Project Mask was acquainted with. Many people reject the claim that circumstantial "evidence" proves anything other than that the MJ-12 briefing paper is a well planned hoax. The need for careful planning and execution are prominently mentioned in the Project mask documents. Is there any possible connection between Project Mask, proposed in early 1986, and MJ-12 brought out in 1987?

Round and round we go…
Men go and come but Earth abides.
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Postby Zep Tepi » Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:21 am

Very interesting post AD, thanks for sharing the information :)

I'd already started writing a response to the original material, but other bits and bobs got in the way. Essentially, the main point I was going to make is what is echoed above - that far too much weight was being put on the premise that Doty's involvement in all of this was AFOSI-sanctioned.

Your second point -follow the money- is exactly what I have been doing recently. The conclusion will form part of the upcoming report, but suffice to say (for now), the sheer amounts involved are absolutely staggering! It isn't all about selling books or being paid for lecture tours either...;)

Cheers,
Zep
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