Murnut - Banned Again

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Murnut - Banned Again

Postby ryguy » Mon Mar 16, 2009 2:53 pm

I guess it's time to revive this section.

I learned this morning that Murnut was banned from OM for voicing his opinion regarding the reality of the Source A releases. Ivo...the person who once presented himself to Steve as a friend and then turned around and publicly stabbed him in the back, revealing Steve's most private comments...has seen fit to ban Murnut, for nothing more than taking a stand in the midst of madness and being willing to honestly "Uncover Reality" regarding the Source A discussions and Salla's apparent entry into the debate. Must we remind the public on which side of the fence Salla sat in regards to the Serpo hoax?

I hesitate to defend Murnut, because he's been banned before from OM, only to go back and become a moderator at one point. However, truth is truth - and the fact that Murnut showed the courage to stand up in a madhouse like that and speak reasonably on these issues speaks volumes about his character and willingness to be honest with himself and with others.

I heard this morning that Salla has weighed in and used the John Callahan episode to add weight to these discussions regarding Source A and a "cover-up." I would like to make it perfectly clear that we've been sitting on very clear and damning evidence regarding John Callahan's claims. Salla apparently lacks the ability, or honesty, to fully vet those claims...and the fact that he's going to use them to prop up an empty story like "Source A" tells us that publishing that story should be a priority.

I would like to point out that Murnut was an important part of helping with the investigation of Callahan's claims, and he put us in touch with an additional source that eventually revealed the truth (indirectly and unintentionally) regarding those claims. This means that, currently, Murnut holds a bit of insight and inside knowledge regarding the Callahan claims that most others who are taking part in the discussion (most certainly more than Ivo - who couldn't investigate his way out of his own house to save his life) do not have.

In fact, and this reflects strongly upon his inability to remain unbiased - we've heard that Ivo had some private business/financial discussions with CR - who, I might add, was initially the person who contacted us and claimed that CK was the one at the Callahan meeting, and that CK was the one who took all of the paperwork and left. A claim we later learned was completely untrue. I now believe this was an attempt by CR to further promote the "cover-up" myth (which is a central part of the Doty-as-an-AF-disinfo-agent myth)...and Ivo and CR have remained in close communication for a very long time. We have evidence to show communications stretching well into 2008 at least. It's not surprising that he's now bending over backwards to protect the CR "cover-up" version of this story.

You can be certain that CR is instrumental in molding the beliefs of this particular believer (Ivo), and I would say that, of anyone taking part within that forum, Ivo is the least trustworthy of the lot regarding these particular issues. Just something to keep in mind.

-Ry
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Re: Murnut - Banned Again

Postby Zep Tepi » Mon Mar 16, 2009 3:55 pm

Yeah I saw that too. For the life of me I can't work out why he was suspended, either. I've been following along on a couple of threads over there and I have to say, it can be hard work. The rules they have over there appear to be the polar opposite of the rules in place here! Still, it's their site and they can do what they like with it. Mur's gagging seems totally out of order when you look at in the context of what he was actually saying. When seen in the context of where it was (OM), it's easier to understand. That said - and please someone correct me if I'm wrong - I thought they had left those days behind? Admittedly, I'm not a regular reader by any stretch of the imagination so I could be comletely wrong and it is, in fact, still the way of the "protect those spouting off wild claims at all cost and ban the rest" merchant.

On another note, have you seen the latest posts by Dan over there?! Talk about getting it completely wrong! I know you are loathe to, but maybe you should take a look, just for comedy purposes. I personally am a tad offended by his latest twisting of the facts. He started out by telling everyone I had contacted Ron about Source A, but it didn't take him long to attribute everything to you. It seems like I no longer exist! I asked him to correct his posts and he said he would, but he hasn't. Oh well. I guess it is just another reminder of how quickly he tends to get his facts wrong. The fact that a few people over there continually refer to our investigation as "Ryan's investigation" really gets my goat too. Grrr. I have feelings you know! ;)
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Re: Murnut - Banned Again

Postby ryguy » Mon Mar 16, 2009 4:47 pm

Zep Tepi wrote:The fact that a few people over there continually refer to our investigation as "Ryan's investigation" really gets my goat too. Grrr. I have feelings you know! ;)


Yeah - if this were just "Ryan's investigation," we'd still be at the starting gates.

I think it could be a case of short attention span, or ADD...who knows. The focus always seems to be author of the latest article update. For some reason a few people can't get their minds around the idea of collaborative investigation. The author's name on an article only represents who put the investigation puzzle-pieces on paper, obviously the bulk of the work is in extracting puzzle pieces and putting them together....that most certainly is a huge team effort.

And Dan - if you're reading this, I don't appreciate quotes being attributed to me that weren't mine. Those were Steve's comments and I'd appreciate it if you'd correct that immediately. As it stands your posts are grossly inaccurate in the quoting department...

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Re: Murnut - Banned Again

Postby ScaRZ » Mon Mar 16, 2009 8:29 pm

Ryan.....You wrote above in your first post........."we've heard that Ivo had some private business/financial discussions with CR.

Who is CR?
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Re: Murnut - Banned Again

Postby Zep Tepi » Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:00 pm

Colleague of Ron = Kit

I know, why didn't we just use the right names in the first place!
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Re: Murnut - Banned Again

Postby ryguy » Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:21 pm

Zep Tepi wrote:Colleague of Ron = Kit

I know, why didn't we just use the right names in the first place!


More difficult to accuse of libel, etc... :)

-Ry
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Re: Murnut - Banned Again

Postby Zep Tepi » Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:24 pm

True, but as long as we stick to what we know to be true, we'll be fine :)

Who was it who started that anyway, Gary or Dan?
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Re: Murnut - Banned Again

Postby ryguy » Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:26 pm

Definitely Dan...he gets all hot and bothered over acronyms. I think he believes it's part of his imagined "protocol."
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Re: Murnut - Banned Again

Postby ScaRZ » Mon Mar 16, 2009 9:30 pm

Thanks guys!
I thought it was Kit but wanted to be sure.
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Re: Murnut - Banned Again

Postby murnut » Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:01 am

Wow...my own thread....where I am the topic...sort of.

I just had a long talk with Ivo, and I feel that it was very productive.

I am serving 10 days.

I have some issues putting my thoughts to text in a way where my intent is clear.

If they could hear my voice, I would not have a problem...I think.

However, I have to do a better job of making sure that I disagree in a more civil manner.

I have almost 7000 posts there, some are better than others

I have no desire to walk away from OM .

There are certain friendships with members that I value.

That being said, I also have a desire to speak my mind freely without concern that the next post could be my last.

Salla is a guy that is pushing an agenda. He might have some good ideas about some things, but much of his speculation is pure nonsense.

At least, most of his recent ideas are "out there"

Just before my exile, he brought up the Callahan cover-up issue, which I know to be an exaggeration on the part of Mr. Callahan.

The Japan Airline case is still a good one, but this embellishment by Mr. Callahan creates problems for Ufology that just don't need to be there.

Ufology struggles with credibility.

Callahan's embellishments and the distortion that the Govt tried to hush it up, hurts much more than they help.

Nothing was hushed up, in fact BMac wrote a very detailed report on the subject...only 3 or 4 months later.

Gee, how did BMac know everything that he did if there was some type of cover-up?

For whatever reason, the Govt does not call a press conference every time there is a good ufo case.

But the notion of goon squads enforcing ufo secrecy is a conclusion that is speculation based.

Salla's speculations in general are not a horrible thing, but some will take his words as fact....because of who he is in the world of ufology.

He is wrong about Callahan, wrong about a BSG-UN secret meeting tie in, wrong about the "Truth Commission" having anything to do with ufo's, he is wrong about a lot.

Then again maybe he is right about something, but I am afraid that I might miss it because of all the times crying "wolf", even if he believes all of them to be valid.

Thank goodness the public ignores ufology, because if they ever became aware of him, we would be considered even less credible...this is one of our leaders? Holy Moly

Another annoying thought that comes to mind is his suggestion that he wants others to do the investigating for him. He is just the "idea" guy. He doesn't need to be accountable?

Why does he not do these investigations himself?

He says that I try to debunk/dismiss/discredit anything that can't be verified.

Really all that I was suggesting that there are usually more plausible explanations other than the ones being push by him.

I could have made my point much clearer, but instead I raised the "un-civility" ante...and in the process posted slightly in anger.

I would not want to discourage any new posters at OM from sharing new ideas because they might think I would jump on them the way (it is perceived) I disagreed with Salla.

I figured Salla was a big boy, and could handle the fact I disagreed with him.

But, my own stubbornness that I was right, clouded my usually respectful manner.

RU has impressed me of late.

I think I will be spending more time here going forward.

We have had some major disagreements in the past, but at least I know that I can speak my mind....and you all can tell me how wrong I am....lol

Disinfo also comes from the heart of ufology unfortunately.

I hate to say it, but it is much more prevalent from the believer side, than the govt side.

Ignoring this problem only makes it worse.

Facing this problem head on makes us unpopular in Ufology, but it just has to be done.

It is extremely difficult to do that at a place like OM though.

OM is not perfect in it's attempt at perfection, and neither am I.

It is not the OM's staff fault, it is not Salla's fault.

He has sanctuary there. Many do.

OM wants folks to feel free to discuss any experience or investigative thought process that moves them EDIT free from ridicule. EDIT

It is my fault for not being more keenly aware of that fact as it related to Dr. Salla.

I apologize to the staff and the membership at OM

There was a better way for me to have voiced my opinion at OM, and will do so in the future.

Now who can rip into here....Chorlton ? :wink:
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Re: Murnut - Banned Again

Postby ScaRZ » Tue Mar 17, 2009 4:29 am

[Mur].... I thought you said some things that needed to have been said. You pushed your veiws very hard,but they pushed their views also. I don't see where you pushed any stronger than they did. I quess it's according to which side of the fence you are viewing from........."It always does,doesn't it?"
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Re: Murnut - Banned Again

Postby murnut » Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:01 am

Well, I agree with you[ScarZ] of course....but OM is what it is.

One has to be careful on how one disagrees there.

I wasn't careful enough.

I certainly would not want to give the impression that I encourage the suppression of ideas, experiences or investigations.

I don't demand proof, debunk ideas, or discredit experiences.

I do believe that certain questions need to be asked of those that push an agenda.....especially when it is obvious the agenda is more important than the truth or known facts.

Ufology needs less of those with agendas, and more of those who question the generally held predispositions....in my opinion.
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Re: Murnut - Banned Again

Postby Access Denied » Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:02 am

murnut wrote:Callahan's embellishments and the distortion that the Govt tried to hush it up, hurts much more than they help.

Nothing was hushed up, in fact BMac wrote a very detailed report on the subject...only 3 or 4 months later.

Gee, how did BMac know everything that he did if there was some type of cover-up?

In fact the radar data was released to the public then too as Maccabee admitted when pressed on PF as I pointed out here...

viewtopic.php?p=15336#p15336

murnut wrote:I don't demand proof, debunk ideas, or discredit experiences.

Well, in my opinion, you ought to be able to ask questions and point out where the evidence, in your opinion, is falling short for you… after all if they can’t convince you, an avid enthusiast, what are the chances of them convincing the “mainstream”… assuming that’s the goal right?

murnut wrote:Ufology needs less of those with agendas, and more of those who question the generally held predispositions....in my opinion.

Nooooo… are you mad? We can’t afford to have the subject taken more seriously!!!
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Re: Murnut - Banned Again

Postby ryguy » Tue Mar 17, 2009 1:51 pm

**Edited for space**

murnut wrote:Disinfo also comes from the heart of ufology unfortunately. I hate to say it, but it is much more prevalent from the believer side, than the govt side. Ignoring this problem only makes it worse.

Facing this problem head on makes us unpopular in Ufology, but it just has to be done. It is extremely difficult to do that at a place like OM though. OM is not perfect in it's attempt at perfection, and neither am I. It is not the OM's staff fault, it is not Salla's fault. He has sanctuary there. Many do.


It's great to see this sort of rhetoric from you Murnut. A year or so ago, I would not have suspected that you'd ever write the ideas in that first paragraph. To see you express that (and apparently even express it over at OM) sure does put a smile on my face. It's the reason we do what we do every single day, and to watch the progression of logic and reason truly start to dominate within the mind of a former "believer" is nice...it at least gives me hope that what we do here has some impact, whatever size impact that may be.

This is just a small issue, but I disagree that it's not the OM staff's fault - when an environment is created and fostered that discourages critical thinking and questioning long-running myths, you create an environment where those people who have developed and distributed these stories enjoy free rein (not to mention a perfect "believer test bed").

Either way, glad to see you were able to work things out. Are you out of finishing up those loose ends with us? I don't mind, it would have just been nice to have the additional pair of hands.

Best,
-Ry
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Re: Murnut - Banned Again

Postby murnut » Tue Mar 17, 2009 2:39 pm

I am working on those "loose ends".

It might be slow going at first, but I intend to get it done
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