Carrion, Bigelow and OM?

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Carrion, Bigelow and OM?

Postby packetStorm » Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:51 pm

Hey what do you guys make of recent Bigelow funding of Mufon and James Carrion's recent pissing match with the guys @ OM?

Is a new game underway? Any guess as to purpose and or agenda?

http://followthemagicthread.blogspot.com/
http://mufonmembers.proboards.com/index ... rrionsblog

STAR Team Impact Project (SIP)
Project Overview

•MUFON is being subcontracted to provide information to Bigelow Aerospace Advanced Space Studies (BAASS) on the UFO phenomenon.
•SIP is a Pilot Project that will determine whether rapidly deployed paid field personnel with the right skills and equipment can significantly improve MUFON’s collection of UFO data and get us closer to understanding the UFO phenomenon.
•SIP data that is collected will be shared with BAASS with the goal of BAASS achieving breakthroughs in commercial technology.
•BAASS is in the process of hiring 50 scientists which may work with MUFON in the field or even after MUFON’s investigation has been completed, to collect data long term.
•BAASS will pay for physical evidence lab testing and share the results with MUFON.

edit:
If it matters at all ... Chuck Zukowski jumps into the fray:

http://ufonut.com/wordpress/?p=96

Hang on ... going to get some popcorn ...
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Re: Carrion, Bigelow and OM?

Postby ryguy » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:49 pm

packetStorm wrote:Hey what do you guys make of recent Bigelow funding of Mufon


It's interesting, although Bigelow has been funding various paranormal/ufo groups for ages such as Puthoff, NIDS and others. He goes where he believes answers may be found - or at least where he's led to believe answers may be found.

There are a couple of reasons that it does worry me that I can't get into, but a lot depends on the specifics of what the funding is intended for and where it's going to be funneled. We've heard about the funding in general, but I personally haven't followed up yet to learn the specifics. Based on the information that you've forwarded above, it sounds like the hope is that if MUFON is properly funded then field investigations may be conducted by more skilled folks, and Bigelow is probably hoping that will yield better end results.

MUFON is likely more than pleased to receive proper funding - but it's also important to note who else will receive a great deal of funding (as usual):

•SIP data that is collected will be shared with BAASS with the goal of BAASS achieving breakthroughs in commercial technology.
•BAASS is in the process of hiring 50 scientists which may work with MUFON in the field or even after MUFON’s investigation has been completed, to collect data long term.
•BAASS will pay for physical evidence lab testing and share the results with MUFON.


Same old game...over and over. Bottom line - just as he (and others) have tried to do for years, he hopes to reverse engineer technology from field observations/data of the UFO phenomenon. It's sort of like if, as an engineer, I decided to collect data from the haunting phenomenon in order to create new breakthroughs in technology....it's basically throwing good money after bad science (and unethical scientists) in the hopes of a huge ROI down the road.

We'll be following Bigelow's efforts as time goes on...that's for sure.

and James Carrion's recent pissing match with the guys @ OM?


That's older news - it started months ago when he was on their forum and started asking good questions. OM isn't a place where you ask questions of sources. You need to trust the sources and think happy thoughts while drinking cool aide.

Is a new game underway? Any guess as to purpose and or agenda?


Personally, I don't think there's a collective game under way. I think it's just a matter of disjointed individuals or small groups of 2 or 3 trying as hard as they can to stir the pot (ignoring the fact that they don't even know where the pot is yet.)

BTW...thanks for the great post. :)

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Re: Carrion, Bigelow and OM?

Postby packetStorm » Tue Sep 01, 2009 2:13 am

ryguy ... thxs for taking the time to respond ... it is appreciated.

As for Bigelow funding ... this is not the first attempt. I believe it was late 1995-1996 when Bigelow try to fund MUFON, FUFOR, and CUFOS. Rumor has it that funding fell thru due to concerns of research control. That possibly John Alexander pulled the plug?

http://www.martiansgohome.com/smear/v42/ss951010.htm
http://www.martiansgohome.com/smear/v42/ss951205.htm

An interesting aspect of the early funding is the issue of Bigelow 'acquiring' 140 abduction case from Mufon's John Carpenter ... for unknown reason.

Yes ... Bigelow was funding others ... Roger Leir, Derrel Sims, Linda Moulton Howe, Robert Lazar, Budd Hopkins, John Mack etc.

And I am sure you have looked at the people involved with Bigelow and NIDS. Robert Bigelow, John Alexander, Victoria Alexander, Edgar Mitchell, Gordon Novel, Hal Puthoff, Bruce Maccabee, Burt Rutan ... etc.

And would guess you have looked at activities that occurred at SRI and Fort Meade regarding RV ... and assume you come to the same conclusion that I do ... which is RV was a cover for some other activity.

Ergo ... it appears to me that the funding provided to the 'UFO' researchers noted above was not for research but to help create and reinforce the meme rolled out in force around 1978 at Kirkland.

In your opinion ... is that a reasonable assumption that NIDS was a front and was actively creating the UFO fable?

As for MUFON ... I see Mufon filling the Derrel Sims role ... providing BAASS what Sims provided NIDS. I see a big disinformation play in the works. And my guess is the MUFON AMP data might just be the basis for the opening play.

BTW ... excellent work with the Dale Graff interview. I was not aware there was a RV program at the Foreign Technology Division of Wright Patterson Air Force Base.
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Re: Carrion, Bigelow and OM?

Postby Access Denied » Tue Sep 01, 2009 6:57 am

packetStorm wrote:Burt Rutan

Burt Rutan?

packetStorm wrote:RV was a cover for some other activity

Like?

packetStorm wrote:NIDS was a front

For who'?
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Re: Carrion, Bigelow and OM?

Postby packetStorm » Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:09 pm

Access Denied wrote:Burt Rutan?

Burt Rutan - Aerospace Engineer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burt_Rutan
Access Denied wrote:Like?

The development and testing of synthetic telepathy and/or psychotronic weaponry ... ?
Access Denied wrote:For who'?

Intelligence agency of the day? CIA, DIA, NSA, NSG ... ?
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Re: Carrion, Bigelow and OM?

Postby ryguy » Tue Sep 01, 2009 4:39 pm

packetStorm wrote:Burt Rutan - Aerospace Engineer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burt_Rutan


Yes - Burt Rutan is another one (believer).

The development and testing of synthetic telepathy and/or psychotronic weaponry ... ?


The evidence to support that theory is pretty flimsy. Certainly there were forms of testing going on parallel to the RV research years, but other than Gary Bekkum-like speculation based on very, very loose conspiratorial thinking/connections - nothing of substance has ever surfaced that solidly weighs that hypothesis more heavily than the one where RV was simply a failed government research project (like so many others), that eventually got shut down by enough people with sense and reason coming along and realizing that the government had been just as sucked into "the scam" as wealthy believers do.

Intelligence agency of the day? CIA, DIA, NSA, NSG ... ?


Other than unrelated documents that show there was certainly (and most likely still is) some pretty loopy research ideas being entertained by the U.S. gov agencies, again - there's little to solidly support the theory that the eventually unclassified RV project was a cover for anything. There's too much solid documentation (not to mention witness statements from scientists, former RV'ers and other witnesses) that supports the fact that the RV project was exactly what the FOIA docs now show - a failed attempt by the government to verify and use telepathy/ESP for intelligence gathering purposes.

Unlike Gary and other conspiracy-theorists, we really need much more convincing evidence before I'd ever be convinced that the truth lies in that direction. Why CIA and DIA...why not the Illuminati, MIB....etc...etc..ad naseum.

That's my take.

From your previous post, however:

Ergo ... it appears to me that the funding provided to the 'UFO' researchers noted above was not for research but to help create and reinforce the meme rolled out in force around 1978 at Kirkland.


That's an interesting thought...! However, there's no reason to assume the funding was part of a government effort.

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Re: Carrion, Bigelow and OM?

Postby jeddyhi » Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:59 pm

ryguy wrote:
and James Carrion's recent pissing match with the guys @ OM?


That's older news - it started months ago when he was on their forum and started asking good questions. OM isn't a place where you ask questions of sources. You need to trust the sources and think happy thoughts while drinking cool aide.


You are aware of his recent return to OM asking for Bren (Admin) and Chris (Ivo) to prove their identities by posting resumes, right? He accused them of not being real people in his August 17, blog entry and showed up at OM asking for resumes and CV's. They refused to post and spent 6 pages arguing. It was something to see lol.

The thread is here for those interested.

http://lucianarchy.proboards.com/index. ... hread=6287
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Re: Carrion, Bigelow and OM?

Postby packetStorm » Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:01 pm

ryguy wrote:The evidence to support that theory is pretty flimsy. Certainly there were forms of testing going on parallel to the RV research years, but other than Gary Bekkum-like speculation based on very, very loose conspiratorial thinking/connections - nothing of substance has ever surfaced that solidly weighs that hypothesis more heavily than the one where RV was simply a failed government research ...

I do not have a comprehensive list to provide regarding evidence supporting the 'cover story' argument ... but will attempt to provide what I can.

However ... the Gary S. Bekkum info is based on actual documents ... correct? More than just speculation or conspiratorial thinking/connections. Documents such as a letter dated September 22, 1994 ... identifying PHOENIX program found within STAR GATE documents. I can not verify the source of the material ... but it appears to me to be real hard evidence?

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/12208

Also ... from the Washington Post on August 7, 1977 ... ELF mind control was an object of study at SRI:

"When the Navy awarded a contract to the Institute, the scientific assistant to the Secretary of the Navy, Dr. Sam Koslov, received a routine briefing on various research projects, including SRI's. As the briefer flashed his chart onto the screen and began to speak, Koslov stormily interrupted, 'What the hell is that about?' Among the glowing words on the projected chart, the section describing SRI's work was labeled,

ELF and Mind Control.

ELF stands for extremely [low] frequency electromagnetic waves, from the very slow brain frequencies up to about 100 cycles per second.... But the Mind Control label really upset Koslov. He ordered the SRI investigations for the Navy stopped, and canceled another $35,000 in Navy funds slated for more remote viewing work."

http://www.whale.to/b/constantine6.html

Well back to work ... let me see if I can come up with anything else to support my position.
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Re: Carrion, Bigelow and OM?

Postby ryguy » Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:11 pm

jeddyhi wrote:You are aware of his recent return to OM asking for Bren (Admin) and Chris (Ivo) to prove their identities by posting resumes, right? He accused them of not being real people in his August 17, blog entry and showed up at OM asking for resumes and CV's. They refused to post and spent 6 pages arguing. It was something to see lol.


Thanks jeddyhi - yes, was aware of what he'd posted on his blog, but I didn't realize he actively went onto the forum asking them to prove their identities. I'm not sure why his focus is on Bren and Chris when he should be focused on "Jakereason" :)

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Re: Carrion, Bigelow and OM?

Postby Zep Tepi » Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:28 pm

jeddyhi wrote:You are aware of his recent return to OM asking for Bren (Admin) and Chris (Ivo) to prove their identities by posting resumes, right? He accused them of not being real people in his August 17, blog entry and showed up at OM asking for resumes and CV's. They refused to post and spent 6 pages arguing. It was something to see lol.

The thread is here for those interested.

http://lucianarchy.proboards.com/index. ... hread=6287


Wow, you're not wrong. I don't know about anyone else, but I thought it was pretty obvious the way he (Carrion) was being ganged up on. I also found the assertion that you (Jeddyhi) was the one who originally suggested he should have his account suspended to be highly disturbing - especially so considering the stance you had taken against the drone nonsense since day one. Disturbing, but not surprising. We've been there before...

As for some people thinking there may be more to the identities of the OM co-owners than meets the eye, why is that so surprising?

Considering the people some of those owners have been collaborating with over the years, I'm only surprised that this specific issue hasn't come up earlier.

People do know that several members of the Aviary have been regular contributors over at OM, don't they...? ;)
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Re: Carrion, Bigelow and OM?

Postby ryguy » Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:32 pm

packetStorm wrote:However ... the Gary S. Bekkum info is based on actual documents ... correct? More than just speculation or conspiratorial thinking/connections. Documents such as a letter dated September 22, 1994 ... identifying PHOENIX program found within STAR GATE documents. I can not verify the source of the material ... but it appears to me to be real hard evidence?


No..I'm not referring to evidence that the government had interest in mind-control type research or other strange oddities - I'm referring to evidence that supports that the UFO-related mythology (hello MJ-12) that surfaced starting in the late 1970's was at all related to that research. Gary often rattles off bits and pieces from documents that make mention of one fringe government program or another - but to take a running leap and claim that the myth was part of a government conspiracy?

A man introduces himself to Ufology researchers as an Air Force Colonel...does that really make him one? I always get a kick out of the old tales where a single ufology "researcher" said that "I checked out his credentials." Every researcher down the road buys that as a fact and retells the same story...when you finally stop to check whether or not the source was really who he says he is...that's when things fall apart. A good example of this is Steve's recent report - when you check into things like whether or not James Angleton's grandson down in Florida - feeding Ufology researchers alleged CIA "notes" - is the real deal? You learn that it's smoke and mirrors and doesn't involve the CIA after all - in any way shape or form.

Also ... from the Washington Post on August 7, 1977 ... ELF mind control was an object of study at SRI:


Very likely - there's plenty of evidence that the government had heavy interest in ELF and the effects of many other "environmental factors" (or drugs) on the mind, but SRI was a large research organization and conducted a great deal of government contracted research...Hal's remote viewing project was only one.

...let me see if I can come up with anything else to support my position.


Cool - I'll be looking forward to it. Be forewarned - we've heard a lot of the government conspiracy-theories about mind control, and there are a lot of researchers out there who believe UFO-related myths are a cover up for those. One of our former admins (a long time ago) was obsessed with the topic...so hopefully you're able to present something new. :)

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Re: Carrion, Bigelow and OM?

Postby Access Denied » Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:29 am

ryguy wrote:Yes - Burt Rutan is another one (believer).

Oh my… say it isn’t so. Remind me to stop by his office one of these days on my way home to perform an intervention... 8)

ryguy wrote:Why CIA and DIA...why not the Illuminati, MIB....etc...etc..ad naseum.

Or KGB… ;)
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Re: Carrion, Bigelow and OM?

Postby ryguy » Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:06 pm

Access Denied wrote:
ryguy wrote:Yes - Burt Rutan is another one (believer).

Oh my… say it isn’t so. Remind me to stop by his office one of these days on my way home to perform an intervention... 8)


Oooh...or an interview? We can gang up on him and do the intervention together. :)

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Re: Carrion, Bigelow and OM?

Postby jeddyhi » Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:26 pm

Zep Tepi wrote:
jeddyhi wrote:You are aware of his recent return to OM asking for Bren (Admin) and Chris (Ivo) to prove their identities by posting resumes, right? He accused them of not being real people in his August 17, blog entry and showed up at OM asking for resumes and CV's. They refused to post and spent 6 pages arguing. It was something to see lol.

The thread is here for those interested.

http://lucianarchy.proboards.com/index. ... hread=6287


Wow, you're not wrong. I don't know about anyone else, but I thought it was pretty obvious the way he (Carrion) was being ganged up on. I also found the assertion that you (Jeddyhi) was the one who originally suggested he should have his account suspended to be highly disturbing - especially so considering the stance you had taken against the drone nonsense since day one. Disturbing, but not surprising. We've been there before...

As for some people thinking there may be more to the identities of the OM co-owners than meets the eye, why is that so surprising?

Considering the people some of those owners have been collaborating with over the years, I'm only surprised that this specific issue hasn't come up earlier.

People do know that several members of the Aviary have been regular contributors over at OM, don't they...? ;)


Yeah, I found that a bit disturbing myself. My immediate thought was that Jakereason was attempting some sort of deflection from the points I had been making. I found the accusation to be unbelievable in that I had clearly been appalled at James' treatment on OM in 2007 and posted as much. Why would I bring up discussion on banning the International Director of MUFON after having had defended him in the public forum.It makes no sense whatsoever and I have no memory of anything like that taking place. Jake, though no longer a staff member, attempted damage control. That is my only explanation.
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Re: Carrion, Bigelow and OM?

Postby murnut » Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:24 pm

Clearly I'm biased with regards to much of what happens and has happened at OM, but I don't get Jake at all most times. Maybe it's the holier than now attitude, or just plain arrogance.

Regardless, I'm embarrassed that they treated the head of Mufon with such contempt.

They made his point for him, and it was ridiculously easy.
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