Amkon.......why?

Amkon.......why?

Postby Chorlton » Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:14 am

Why is Amkon giving John Lear the time of day on their site?
He refuses to offer any evidence to support his delusions (whats new) and appears to use it as simply another outlet to encourage the cult of 'Loony Learism.'

Allow him to post by all means, but if he refuses to offer any rational evidence for his rabid ravings then he needs booting. But he's being allowed to post his nutcase theories, One of which (his 'cure for AIDS) I consider to be dangerous without any questioning, and just using the site as another showcase.

He now seems to be swanning around as many forums as possible, doing the celebrity thing and attracting all the 'Oh wow man, John Lear' fruitcakes, posting his delusions but totally avoiding any straight questioning on his manic theories, merely showboating his ideas in an attempt to increase his controversy level, thereby increasing the chances he will be interviewed by someone or another, again for money (because IMHO thats Lears whole idea).

Why Amkon gives him the time of day beats me.
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Re: Amkon.......why?

Postby ryguy » Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:04 pm

Chorlton wrote:Why Amkon gives him the time of day beats me.


Starving for visitors/hits, most likely...

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AMKON their response to my post.

Postby Chorlton » Mon Jun 23, 2008 11:51 am

This is the full and uneditted response I received from Mojo at AMKON after my posts asking why they allow John Lear to post his rubbish there.You will see that MOJO gave his permission for this to be posted here so no rulles or anything are being broken.
I replied to MOJO's email to the tune of, 'I respect their decision to allow Lear to post, but by allowing him to post what he wants, without Lear offering any evidence for his delusions is simply helping Lear to propogate his myths and increase his overall visibility on the net. (or words to that effect.

Hi Chorlton, i noticed a couple of questions that have been asked on RU regarding John Lear being on our forum. I was going to simply join up and explain our position but didn't want to join just to make 1 post so thought i'd answer your's and Access Denied's posts via PM, however i'd be happy for you to post my response on RU if you felt the need to.


Thus is MOJO's email to me and I am obliged to him for allowing me to reproduce it here. =D>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chorlton posted this,

Quote:
AmKon....Why?

Why is Amkon giving John Lear the time of day on their site?
He refuses to offer any evidence to support his delusions (whats new) and appears to use it as simply another outlet to encourage the cult of 'Loony Learism.'

Allow him to post by all means, but if he refuses to offer any rational evidence for his rabid ravings then he needs booting. But he's being allowed to post his nutcase theories, One of which (his 'cure for AIDS) I consider to be dangerous without any questioning, and just using the site as another showcase.

He now seems to be swanning around as many forums as possible, doing the celebrity thing and attracting all the 'Oh wow man, John Lear' fruitcakes, posting his delusions but totally avoiding any straight questioning on his manic theories, merely showboating his ideas in an attempt to increase his controversy level, thereby increasing the chances he will be interviewed by someone or another, again for money (because IMHO thats Lears whole idea).

Why Amkon gives him the time of day beats me. UNQUOTE


We don't all believe everything John has to say btw, (by "we" i mean the members and staff, though some obviously do), but when this forum was first started by Jasn it was decided by consensus that we didn't want to go down the same road as some other forums, ie, laying the smack down with the ban hammer on all and sundry for any old thing. There are many posts on the board which are opinion based and lack hard evidence, we accept that, by allowing the threads to continue through discussion and debate that members can make their own decisions and do their own research to reach those decisions. I think this is very important and we have deliberately attempted to steer our members into group research projects, some of which you would be unable to see as they are in a dedicated forum with restricted access.
90% of our member base are ex A T S members who were looking for a new "CT internet home" and much of our discussion and topics so far have been "off topic", we put this down to most of us having had a gutful of the A T S crap and just wanting to unwind for a while.
We are still a young site, barely 6 months old and have roughly 200 members, probably with only about 20 to 30 regular hardcore contributors. I think that the forum is still evolving and i personally would like to see in the future certain topics being in forums that have strictly enforced rules regarding evidence seperated from the forums that are a bit looser and are for more opinion based theories of which John has stated his are (i haven't run that one past Jasn yet so he might tell me to take a running jump). I think your point regarding evidence is a good one but until we have determined the seperation of certain forums into categories that cover evidence based and opinion based threads we will just have to live with what we have at present.
I can certainly understand some people's frustration with John's post's and his posting style but we do not see that as a reason to ban anyone from our forum, not just John.
You may have noticed the fun our members have derailing, one line posting, swearing, and discussing topics that we were unable to do at the other place, this would probably get us banned at just about every other forum going around, but for most of the members it was liberating to just let loose for a change without the constriction of A T S like moderation.
I think many of the threads from our inception were also very loose and opinion based, but there are also some very well researched threads, backed by evidence, on the board which we are also very proud of and which we think given time will be revived by the membership as the forum evolve's and our members start to renew their interest in CT topics..
You and any others who wish to challenge John or anyone else for that matter are welcome to do so and i will moderate those threads accordingly and make sure that you have the opportunity to do so without being abused, as long as your requests for evidence are also reasonably civil, which up to this point they have been.


In the "Lear on AIDS" thread Access Denied wrote,.



Quote:
Looks like they’re making the same mistake Sohai and OM and many others made… in their understandable zeal to defend the First Amendment rights of others for fear of appearing hypocritical they’re unwittingly enabling Lear to steal the spotlight and make it all about him and mock his host in the process. Unquote:


Yes, we do strongly believe in free speech but i do not believe that has influenced our decision regarding John at all, many of our members regard John highly while others merely read his threads for fascination's sake, while others don't bother with them at all. I think you'll find there are only a fairly small percentage of members who engage in John's threads.
As i mentioned earlier most of our members are former A T S members and very early on we decided that being able to discuss any and all topics within reason was a goal that we should embrace.
Again, we are still only a young site and evolving and adjusting our forum etiquette and rules as we grow based on member input and i imagine at some stage that certain threads will be moved into forums that are strictly opinion oriented. This may or may not be the case with some of John's threads, we will have to cross that bridge when we come to it.
I think what we are attempting to find is a good balance between evidence, theory, opinion, and good fun b.s.. We aren't there yet but we are working on it and hopefully we will eventually have the forums positioned to reflect this stance.

I hope that answer's some of your questions.

Cheers, mojo.
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Re: AMKON their response to my post.

Postby ryguy » Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:12 pm

Cheers to Mojo for that great response above.

I personally plan to start reviewing their forum for content that we might be able to cross-link with over here. Us start-up forums need to stick together, especially when we share most of the same concerns.

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Re: Amkon.......why?

Postby Access Denied » Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:43 pm

Hi Mojo, thanks for the post. :)

I’m not so sure partnering with AmKon is a good idea considering Toon is now a member there and using your forum to attack not only RU…

http://amkon.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2795

…but me personally as evidenced by his reposting of this libel written by John Lear…

http://amkon.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=33825#p33825

If you’d like to review my resume PM me and I’ll send you a link to my website.

[I wrote a rather detailed rebuttal when Zorgon posted Lear’s letter to Toon here but then I figured anyone who buys into Lear’s BS gets what they deserve and decided against it]

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Re: Amkon.......why?

Postby ryguy » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:46 pm

Oh..Toon is there? Okay then, they no longer exist in our reality. ;)

Someday the hateful creep will crawl into a hole somewhere...oh how I wait with great anticipation for that wonderful day.

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Re: Amkon.......why?

Postby Chorlton » Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:34 am

Yes, Ive toyed with Toon for a few days but its so tedious.

Despite MOJO's reasons which I have stated I understood, I wont be returning there again.
I asked Lear a question on several occasions there and he replied with a repost on his belief in Pari Spolter and cuts and quotes about her, totally ignoring the questions. I find that intolerable

I also find it quite serious that Lear is allowed to post his 'Cure for AIDS' without let or hindrance. I proved his allegations were false yet he's still allowed to post.
To me that just aint on.

There is also a large contingent of 'Believers' and "Oh wow John Lear is here, Im so glad" type people, and a few who have serious problems with their inability to write a sentence without the use of at least 2 swear words.
So thanks Mojo, but you can delete my details. I wont be back. Well not untill Amkon stops allowing people to post total and outright lies.
As they have stated, they are a young site. Thats fine, so learn from your mistakes and get rid of people, like Lear who is using your site to promote his ignorance and stupidity. Its also initially fun to see such bad language thrown around, but it becomes boorish when one cant even have a rational discussion without it sounding like a dockers convention.

And Toon ? He seems to me, to be a frustrated, ignored miscreant, attempting to attain credibility by the use of rather obtuse language. Which, IMHO make him look a nob.

C'est la vie !
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Re: Amkon.......why?

Postby mojo » Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:25 pm

Hello guy's, i decided to join as i wasn't sure if Chorlton would receive my PM or email if i sent one.

Just quickly, Hi Access Denied.
If you will allow me the time to review both of those links you have posted i will do so at the earliest opportunity, i'm currently snowed under at work (not an excuse, just reality, lol).
I will also PM you for that link to your website if the offer is still open.

@ ryguy,
Thanks for the initial kind words. :)
The point i would like to make regarding the user you refer to as "Toon" who goe's by "boycotteverything" at our site is this, he may in fact have a poor reputation on other forums, he may be disliked by a lot of people on other forums, he may be a pain in the a$$ even, but until he or anyone else does something worthy of banning (according to our criteria) then we can only judge them on their current conduct. As i said earlier most of our members are banned members from ATS and we are extremely loathe to ban at this point in time for anything other than what we would term extreme reasons. (our idea of extreme and yours may differ greatly of course).
Banning people based solely on a poor reputation is a slippery slope that i'm not interested in going down.
This puts us at odds with you guy's at this current point in time which is disappointing but understandable, no hard feelings from my point of view.
Who knows, in the future our sites may be able to have a cordial relationship, i certainly hope thats the case, we are not a super serious CT forum as Chorlton can probably attest too, so at this stage our forums are probably two completely different animals (most of our serious CT topics are in forums other than aliens and ufo's and paranormal), though as i said before there are some extremely good threads buried on our forum imho that i hope will receive the attention they deserve at some stage going forward.

@ Chorlton, regarding John's aids thread, you may not be aware but one of our admins has HIV and they have taken John to task on more than one occasion in at least a couple of threads that i can think of including that one.
I would expect that if anyone took extreme exception to this thread and also has the ability to delete a thread it would be this person. They have not indicated that they would like the thread removed or censored, if it was raised by them that they would like this done i believe they would get total support from all of us at AmKon to do so and that person is aware of our position. Please don't think that we take the issue lightly as we have a very good friend who suffers from the disease on our team.

Finally, yep, we will make mistakes and probably already have made a few and will continue to do so no doubt. Sure there are times when you need to heed the lessons learnt by others but there are also times when you need to suffer from your own mistakes, get up and dust yourself off and move on to the next challenge, finding balance between the two is the difficult part.
We have a very good team of people working on the site, from hardcore sceptics to believers of all sorts of conspiracy angles, its my belief that you do need a mix of all types to get anywhere near the truth.

Anyway, thanks for putting up with my ramblings, i enjoy lurking here occasionally and reading some of the outstanding threads you guy's have created, many of you i respected from afar during my time on ATS and i wish you all the best.

mojo.

btw, i think this is the first time i've ever had a discussion with three blokes in a latrine. :lol:
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Re: Amkon.......why?

Postby ryguy » Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:52 pm

mojo wrote:The point i would like to make regarding the user you refer to as "Toon" who goe's by "boycotteverything" at our site is this, he may in fact have a poor reputation on other forums, he may be disliked by a lot of people on other forums, he may be a pain in the a$$ even, but until he or anyone else does something worthy of banning (according to our criteria) then we can only judge them on their current conduct. As i said earlier most of our members are banned members from ATS and we are extremely loathe to ban at this point in time for anything other than what we would term extreme reasons. (our idea of extreme and yours may differ greatly of course).


Understandable...that's the same reason we gave him about 50 chances here (seriously...he's been allowed back here multiple times...it's ridiculous). He'll behave to a point, but if there is any good example of what poor decorum looks like - that guy is it. I don't blame you at all - you just don't know him quite well enough yet. In time - he'll turn his words against you (if you dare to disagree with his platitudes). Then you'll understand him a little better - his banal attempts to appear profound start to show their shallowness after his list of phrases begin to repeat itself. He has attacked everyone and their mother - and all it takes is if you disagree with him. He's like a child who never learned how to play kindly in the sandbox. He's never grown up.

The only reason I refuse to collaborate with you is because he's there. I want no part in promoting his trailor-trash talk to google or any other search engine. But if you ever do learn the hard lesson of his personality, and he's eventually gone - please come back and PM me and let me know. I look forward to exploring the discussions at your site and linking/promoting those discussions at that time.

This puts us at odds with you guy's at this current point in time which is disappointing but understandable, no hard feelings from my point of view.


Same here - I've nothing against you. You appear to be a nice guy, which is great. I hope we can work together in the future.

We have a very good team of people working on the site, from hardcore sceptics to believers of all sorts of conspiracy angles, its my belief that you do need a mix of all types to get anywhere near the truth.


That's good to hear. So long as everyone does their best to question everything that you're told - your team is sure to go far. Just keep in mind that wind-tunnel-brained believers can quickly infect a place with comments and claims that have not be properly questioned. The next thing you know you've got an epidemic of believers who are chasing ghosts that don't exist. That's the much worse slippery slope! :)

Anyway, thanks for putting up with my ramblings, i enjoy lurking here occasionally and reading some of the outstanding threads you guy's have created, many of you i respected from afar during my time on ATS and i wish you all the best.


Thanks for the kind words...I hope you hang around and share some of your thoughts on the various threads.

btw, i think this is the first time i've ever had a discussion with three blokes in a latrine. :lol:


Hey - some of the most important decisions in history were made in the latrine. :)

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Re: Amkon.......why?

Postby Muffy » Sun Jul 13, 2008 8:54 pm

I think the good people of Amkon may have some issues with regards to their stated policies on banning users. I came to Amkon recently, registered, posted a few innocuous things, and then was promptly banned (IP address). The reason stated:

"Rob, I'm disappointed in you. Let Tony do his own dirty work. If by some freak chance this isn't an associate of Tony's, feel free to contact me at kali.epicureanhermit@gmail.com and I'll sort it out for you. Kthxbai."

When I posted to their shoutbox to ask why I was banned, I was told it was because I had been printing threads (actually, not true, although I do prefer to read threads without the avatars, as they take way too long to load on my slow connection).

So, I am a bit hesitant to believe that Mojo's feelings are consistent with all admins of Amkon..
Last edited by Muffy on Sun Jul 13, 2008 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Amkon.......why?

Postby Muffy » Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:23 pm

Guess I should state for the record that Ihave oficially been unbanned, but I still have to wonder why they would be so vocal about their open door policy, but then slam it shut whenever it suits them. In today's shoutbox on their site, I was told they make administrative decisions. Again, this is what they complain so bitterly about on ATS.

This will probably get me banned for good on Amkon, but I'm not sure if that's a bad or good thing. It certainly makes me want to speak out when there are users saying all is wondrous and fair over there.
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Re: Amkon.......why?

Postby Chorlton » Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:42 am

mojo wrote:Hello guy's, i decided to join as i wasn't sure if Chorlton would receive my PM or email if i sent one.


Hi Mojo. I apologise for not replying earlier as I must have missed this post.
As you can see I did receive your PM. It was the last I received before I left. I was notified by email that there were more PM's for me (even one from Toon) but as I stated, I wouldnt be returning to the site and those PM's remain unread.

@ Chorlton, regarding John's aids thread, you may not be aware but one of our admins has HIV and they have taken John to task on more than one occasion in at least a couple of threads that i can think of including that one.
I would expect that if anyone took extreme exception to this thread and also has the ability to delete a thread it would be this person. They have not indicated that they would like the thread removed or censored, if it was raised by them that they would like this done i believe they would get total support from all of us at AmKon to do so and that person is aware of our position. Please don't think that we take the issue lightly as we have a very good friend who suffers from the disease on our team.


Yes, I was aware of one of your mods having Aids, however that does not, and should not stop someone banning Lear for posting a total and outright lie as his b.s. about Aids was. And IMHO you DID treat his post lightly.
I provided proof that what he had posted was a complete lie and fabrication yet he was still allowed to continue posting. That to me is intolerable. It is also intolerable that when challenged, Lear simply ignores them.
You cannot allow a proven liar and hoaxer to continue to post on a forum. By doing so you cast doubt upon the motives of that forum. He is, and has used your forum to promote his crazed ideas and you continue to allow it knowing he is a liar.
In my opinion, if a person such as Lear who spouts and pontificates many things and has a large following due only to his name, spouts one lie, that MUST cast doubt upon everything else he says, and he should NEVER be allowed to continue posting. Many, if not most of his claims have been dissproven, yet he is still allowed to post. This is being disingenuous to your new posters, who might not have read about Lears lies.

I do have other issues with your site, but they are my personal issues.

Its your site, you allow what you want, but you demean yourself and your other members by allowing deranged liars like Lear to promote his lies and b.s., simply because of his name and the traffic that name might generate.
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Re: Amkon.......why?

Postby Muffy » Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:47 pm

I'm coming in to this conversation after I was banned and unbanned on Amkon. The statements I made about my banning (and unbanning) are the same sentiment I have about Mr. Lear's postings on Amkon, or any other site -- it is the responsibility of all readers, imho, to question the accuracy of anything read on any site. I would go so far as to say that the world would probably be a better place in many ways if people chose to read, think, and react to all content presented to them.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and also to what they perceive as fact and/or truth (as "truth" is a relative term). Indeed, everyone should also feel that with that "entitlement" comes responsibility -- we all have the responsibility to think critically about what we read or hear -- whether it be on the internet, the mainstream media or in real life. There will always be charlatans, and there will always be people who make odd statements, but shutting anybody up is censorship, plain and simple, and leads to only a few people controlling the masses in any situation.

I'm from the US, and in the US we had a situation in the 40s and 50s where folks were accused of being communists, resulting in their jailing or other punishments. In most situations, these punishments occurred just because people pointed the finger -- proof was not required, indeed, the definition of what constituted "proof" was so varied that someone could be arrested just for associating with people who were considered to not be "thinking" correctly. In other locations, people died for this. I believe this to be fundamentally wrong in a massive way. Is this the way we want CT sites to be in the future? Is this the way we want the internet to be?

Perhaps, if someone writes something that is false (or perceived that way), it is more important that there is a large, vocal group saying, "NO! Here is the proof that you are incorrect!" Wouldn't that be more functional than just allowing misstatements to be published and not corrected? It sure checks the power of the misstatements, doesn't it? And wouldn't that be more functional than just saying someone can't post -- which inherently boosts that person's voice on something as large and anarchistic as the internet? It's an Emperor's New Clothes kind of thing.

Speak. Listen. Think. React. Repeat.
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Re: Amkon.......why?

Postby ryguy » Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:16 pm

Muffy wrote:Perhaps, if someone writes something that is false (or perceived that way), it is more important that there is a large, vocal group saying, "NO! Here is the proof that you are incorrect!" Wouldn't that be more functional than just allowing misstatements to be published and not corrected? It sure checks the power of the misstatements, doesn't it? And wouldn't that be more functional than just saying someone can't post -- which inherently boosts that person's voice on something as large and anarchistic as the internet? It's an Emperor's New Clothes kind of thing.

Speak. Listen. Think. React. Repeat.


Well written Muffy.

I agree 100% that every person has a personal obligation to take the time to critically verify what they are told or what they read before believing an ounce of it is true. As you point out, we also have an obligation to point out when a known fraud or scammer is distributing already-disproven lies of theirs to unsuspecting audiences.

I would go even further to say that the owners of any online social network that claims to promote the ideals of honesty, morality, fairness, respect, and truth also has an additional obligation, as the distributors and publishers of online internet content, to make sure that people are fully informed that particular information coming from a known hoaxter/fraud has already been proven false, and provide that information in addition to the information they are allowing the hoaxter to publish.

If owners are not capable of doing that due diligence and publishing the entire gamut of information so that their readers receive a fair and balanced plateful, then information from the fraud/hoaxer/charlatan should not be published there either.

Allowing known false information to proliferate unchecked and uncorrected only serves to worsen the existing disease of lazy thinking and lack of basic critical research skills. These are skills we should all try to employ, not only when reading information on the internet, but also when we hear news reports in the mainstream media.

We can either be part of the problem, or try to elevate people above the problem. Forum owners have an opportunity to help elevate people above that level of lazy journalism and wind-tunnel believerism (new term...what do you think?? :) )

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