Nothing is real.....

Holographic Universe or Computer Simulation? Big Bang or God?

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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby Tim Hebert » Tue Aug 10, 2010 5:07 pm

Just a casual observation for what ever its worth. I don't know Dan, but it would be more "enlightening" if he would not speak in riddles and get to the point. It appears that he is seeking a greater truth? If so, well and good. We all have a period in our lives when we embark on such a quest, for some of us this quest is constantly on-going.

As for as reality in concerned, it is a construct of the individual thought process and content and how we interpret our surrounding environment. Collectively we all should perceive reality in approximately the same way, bearing in mind that the enfluences of culture, upbringing and other socialogical factors may play a part in distinguishing the differences of each individuals perception of reality as a whole.

This could be an interesting thread if coherent thoughts are expressed, otherwise, it degenerates into "bad" parables and "bad" examples of New Age philosophy.

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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby ryguy » Tue Aug 10, 2010 6:14 pm

Tim Hebert wrote:As for as reality in concerned, it is a construct of the individual thought process and content and how we interpret our surrounding environment. Collectively we all should perceive reality in approximately the same way, bearing in mind that the enfluences of culture, upbringing and other socialogical factors may play a part in distinguishing the differences of each individuals perception of reality as a whole.


Absolutely - although I'm sure brain chemistry, either normal variations or major malfunction, additionally plays a part in some major differences of perception.

This could be an interesting thread if coherent thoughts are expressed, otherwise, it degenerates into "bad" parables and "bad" examples of New Age philosophy.

Tim


I agree 100% !!
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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby Access Denied » Sat Sep 11, 2010 5:58 am

Some educational material for Chicken Little et. al.

http://alma-geddon.com/

Book reports due Monday.
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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby Tim Hebert » Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:46 pm

Oh my...I forgot that I had posted on this thread.

Ryan, true, neurotransmitters (ACh, dopemine, serotonin, GABA and others) play an important role in cognitive functioning dependent on "too much or too little" availability in the neurosynapsis, but I submit that even though reality is distorted, reality still exists and those individuals interact with "that" reality as they perceive it. And that perceived reality is just as real as what would be construed as normal for the rest of us. I had the pleasure to spend a month with a chronic paranoid schizophrenic during my psychiatric clinicals at the VA in St. Louis, needless to say, an eye opener in many respects.

AD, enjoyed the KooK portion of your link. As a Christian, the Book of Revelation had from the onset been somewhat obvious that the prophecy centered around the seven churches located then in Asia Minor and relevent for that time period only and "pointed" towards Nero. Interesting enough, the early church fathers raised similar questions concerning the authenticity of the book and its author, John of Patmos. Eusebius spent decades searching for and eventually reading what original manuscript that where left trying to rectify the authorship. From my copy of Eusebius' "History of the Church," it doesn't appear that he was totally convinced.

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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby dan » Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:02 pm

As an update, I was permanently banned from the Philosophy Forum, when, without warning, Postmodern Beatnik yanked the plug. This was after a dialog extending for three weeks, and 60 pages, with several members participating. That thread, of this same title, was, I believe, moved to their Pseudo-philosophy section, which may only be accessed by members.

I am seeing about reviving a presence on the Physics Forum, which is rather less traversed. And, of course, I continue on that 'other' forum.

People continue to claim that they don't understand the rationale of the BPWH. What is so hard to understand about the following points.........

1.) Arguing from the Anthropic Principle and the mind-body problem, it is not unreasonable to suppose that the world is more like a great thought, than a great machine.

2.) This leads us to consider that ours may bean immaterial world that is geo-/theo-/antrhopo- centric.

2a.) For the ufo community, the above is tantamount to the taking the UTH position, as opposed to the ETH.

3.) Our material history can be sustained only so long as the modern world maintains its fervent belief in Perpetual Progress.

4.) That belief system is being sorely tested on an number of fronts, particularly in regard to the evident incalcitrance of our population/resource crisis.

5.) The only way to galvanize a human cooperation, sufficient to meet this crisis, will be in an eschatological context.

6.) The Chicken Little/BPWH gambit, is a leading candidate for that galvanizing, with behind-the-scenes assistance from below and above.

What more can I say? I can say a lot more, but unless you are able to seriously entertain the above points, there can be no serious discussion.

Is this asking too much?
--------------------------

Frankly, I am unable to see that any other set of assumptions can provide a basis for rational thought or action, relative to the fate of humanity.

But I will be glad to entertain your equally reasoned suggestions.

.
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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby Access Denied » Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:31 am

dan wrote:People continue to claim that they don't understand the rationale of the BPWH. What is so hard to understand about the following points.........

1.) Arguing from the Anthropic Principle and the mind-body problem, it is not unreasonable to suppose that the world is more like a great thought, than a great machine.

I’m afraid this is a purely philosophical "problem". There is no evidence that the evolutionary (given we aren't the only sentient species on the planet) emergent phenomenon of consciousness can’t be explained in purely physical terms and any significant QM effects have been ruled out. They’re too small and short lived and the brain is too “noisy” of an environment to maintain quantum coherence. Literally it appears to be all in our heads…

dan wrote:2.) This leads us to consider that ours may bean immaterial world that is geo-/theo-/antrhopo- centric.

I think it's pure hubris to think we are the only intelligent species in the Universe and that it, and all of creation, revolves solely around us. However, at this point, I must admit it’s the only scientifically tenable position to take.

dan wrote:2a.) For the ufo community, the above is tantamount to the taking the UTH position, as opposed to the ETH.

Invoking a more scientifically untenable hypotheses to explain the lack of evidence for another scientifically untenable hypothesis is akin to adding insult to injury. At least the ETH is physically possible...

dan wrote:3.) Our material history can be sustained only so long as the modern world maintains its fervent belief in Perpetual Progress.

Michio Kaku would disagree and he’s much more popular than you even though he’s only marginally more scientific in his speculation. Go figure…

dan wrote:4.) That belief system is being sorely tested on an number of fronts, particularly in regard to the evident incalcitrance of our population/resource crisis.

Easily solved should we find the will to become ET before it’s too late… the Universe is our oyster. Unfortunately, those of us laboring under this belief will not live to see it… however, who are you (as a theist) to say this is not in God’s plan for us?

dan wrote:5.) The only way to galvanize a human cooperation, sufficient to meet this crisis, will be in an eschatological context.

Tell that to the dinosaurs… I agree there’s a problem but it seems clear to me you will not be the one who solves it, nor do I think waiting for a conspicuously absent outside agent to come and save us will be the solution.

dan wrote:6.) The Chicken Little/BPWH gambit, is a leading candidate for that galvanizing, with behind-the-scenes assistance from below and above.

Good luck!
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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby dan » Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:59 pm

AD,

I love RU, because this is where I can come to commune with the angry-young-men of ufology, with the Postmodern-Beatniks, if you will.

You do not disappoint!

I am merely of the opinion that Perpetual Growth/Progress does not stand scrutiny. It certainly has not withstood my 33 years of detailed scrutiny. I wonder what scrutiny you have afforded it.

You make two contradictory points......
I think it's pure hubris to think we are the only intelligent species in the Universe and that it, and all of creation, revolves solely around us.

Easily solved should we find the will to become ET before it’s too late… the Universe is our oyster.

But, I suppose that moral nihilists, necessarily, reserve the right to irrationality, if they don't actually have the corner on that market.

I just don't believe, in this hour of our historical extremity, that moral nihilism, that business as usual will suffice. I'm here to represent the contingency of a minimalist divine intervention.

Would you prefer maximalism? Shock&Awe. That probably could be arranged, in extremis.

Re: the mind-body problem.....
I’m afraid this is a purely philosophical "problem". There is no evidence that the evolutionary (given we aren't the only sentient species on the planet) emergent phenomenon of consciousness can’t be explained in purely physical terms and any significant QM effects have been ruled out. They’re too small and short lived and the brain is too “noisy” of an environment to maintain quantum coherence. Literally it appears to be all in our heads…

You do understand, given that you are a meat machine, that you can only pretend that this is a rational argument.

You have been programmed to argue that you are a meat machine. But then, it is a mere tautology. It is an not an hypothesis that is open to actual discussion

.
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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby Access Denied » Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:16 am

Dan, I’m afraid your wine stained philosophical musings will never rise above the level of inane mediocrity as long as you continue to insist on debating with straw men…

Suit yourself or try again beginning with a rational explanation of how those two statements of mine are mutually exclusive.
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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby dan » Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:43 pm

AD,

If we were merely 'thrown' into this universe, if life is an absurdity, in a meaningless universe, if we are lost in space and time, then, by what miracle does this happen.......
Easily solved should we find the will to become ET before it’s too late… the Universe is our oyster.

Have the ET's taken pity on us, and, now, on the brink of our self-annihilation, are going to induct us into their cozy little Galactic Club??

Is the Force with us, after all? Whose Force is it?

Still just wondering.........

.
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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Wed Sep 15, 2010 3:59 pm

Still preachy. Still annoying. Still avoiding direct questions.
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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby dan » Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:41 pm

Is cross-posting allowed........?
...... Aren't I hollering now? Do you not believe that C2C is probably imminent?

WVO Quine is my mentor in the matters of language......

Dictionaries never actually give you a definition, they only send you on an endless, circular/spiral word-chase. This is to say that, unlike artificial languages, natural languages are holistic. You can't understand a word without understanding the dictionary, and you can't understand the dictionary without understanding the words. Language is decidedly non-analytic. To analyze it, is to kill it!

According to Chomsky, a Universal Grammar has been encoded in our DNA, and that is the only reason how we ever ever learn to speak. I simply point out that the human soul is the only likely container of the Universal Grammar. Computers don't have souls. That is why they can SIMULATE speech, but they can never EMULATE it. If you don't grok this crucial distinction, you'll never learn anything worth knowing.

The BPWH is holistic, right up to it's eyeballs. In two hours on the radio, I can only hum a few bars, beat my chest a few times, and drop a few names. I can point to the water. I cannot lead you there, and, much less, can I make you drink it.

But a few brave souls will jump in, and by their fruit, will we all come to know this Tree, the tree of Great Passion, the Pearl of Great Price! Nothing less than the Axis-Mundi. It will, like an ice crystal dropped into super-cooled water, lead to a knowledge implosion. The cosmic sky will fall on our anthropic heads. The stars will soon follow. ......

.
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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:53 pm

Why, oh why, do we put up with this BS when we know full well Dan is NEVER going to answer direct questions, directly? (And yes, that is a direct question to the RU admins!) :D

dan wrote:According to Chomsky, a Universal Grammar has been encoded in our DNA, and that is the only reason how we ever ever learn to speak. I simply point out that the human soul is the only likely container of the Universal Grammar.


Stop right there, Buckaroo. Define "soul", and by that I mean a technical definition that, as a very minimum, expresses relationships between the proposed "soul" and the well-understood code of DNA.

CAUTION: Do NOT proceed on with further flowery filosofizing until this issue has been properly vetted.

END
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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby ryguy » Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:17 pm

Oh man, if there's such a thing as Universal Grammar encoded into human DNA, the vast majority of humans must have some kind of mutated Grammar gene, because even an encoded Universal Grammar doesn't seem to help most folks string together a coherent sentence.

:-)
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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby dan » Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:34 pm

Ray,

"Define soul, or else.........!!"

Bottom-line.... I don't believe in souls.

It's just like I say about ufo's: the good news is that ufo's are only an illusion; the bad news is that so is everything else.

My 60 page, euthanized thread on the PhilFor was 'Nothing is Real....'

But, no, I'm not an angry young nihilist, like my RU friends.

Rather, according to the BPWH, everything is relative. Relative to what, pray tell??

Well, I'm sorry, but all the greatest minds in the world agree that, if there is something holding the world together, and it's not just atoms swerving in the dark, then it must something rather like love. I mean, what else could it be?

Look, if the ET's don't love us, then why don't they have us for dinner?

Or, the Circle of Life is necessarily a circle of love.... we love God, God loves us.
--------------------

So, yes, in the end, it's all just self-love, but, don't you think it's a bit more interesting this way?

We are nothing more than Six (billion) Characters in Search of our Author. And, surprise, we are about to meet our Author, and she is Us. The End, of this cosmic love story! Our souls melt, Apocatastatically, back into the cosmic Soul. Tell me another story that makes the slightest bit of sense!?

Does this completely answer your question?

.
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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Wed Sep 15, 2010 11:32 pm

dan wrote:"Define soul, or else.........!!"

Bottom-line.... I don't believe in souls.

(blah-blah-blah...)

Does this completely answer your question?


No. Clearly, with the words you use above, you completely ducked it. In your cross-post you make a claim:

I simply point out that the human soul is the only likely container of the Universal Grammar.


And then above you say you don't believe in souls, and I must assume that is because you have no way to define them, and so you just duck the question and continue your verbal diarrhea, which I know you believe to be poetry to someone's ears (yours?)

But, no, I'm not an angry young nihilist, like my RU friends.


Are you talking to me? Because if so, you should know (if you remember back to my attempts to instruct you about the Tree Of Life and and its relationship to systems theory), that I am no nihilist.

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