Nothing is real.....

Holographic Universe or Computer Simulation? Big Bang or God?

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Nothing is real.....

Postby dan » Wed Aug 04, 2010 2:48 pm

Really?

For a long while, the most real thing was material progress. That is what has guided our imaginations, more than anything else, for about as long as we can remember, historically. It is difficult for us to imagine what life was like, before modern civilization became stuck on the idea of progress.

It is quite possible that we are about to become unstuck from that idea. Then what?

What becomes of our reality?

This is a question that I will be posing on a science and a philosophy forum. Maybe they will have the answer.

But I suspect not..........
------------------------------------
(Here is what I've actually posted.....)

What has been most real to modern civilization, for the past millennium, is the notion of material progress.

Progress is the most real artifact of the modern mind, in that it has organized our thoughts and actions, more than any other idea.

Quite simply, for the past millennium, we have been stuck on the idea of progress.

What now, now that it appears we are about to come unstuck from that idea?

What then will organize our thoughts and actions?

Just wondering..........
----------------------------------------

I would prefer to keep any resultant discussion separate, to the respective forums.

.
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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby Chorlton » Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:18 pm

dan wrote:Really?

For a long while, the most real thing was material progress. That is what has guided our imaginations, more than anything else, for about as long as we can remember, historically. It is difficult for us to imagine what life was like, before modern civilization became stuck on the idea of progress.

It is quite possible that we are about to become unstuck from that idea. Then what?


We ? Who 'We' Tonto ??
Dont count me in with your loonies.
What becomes of our reality?

My reality is mine thanks.
This is a question that I will be posing on a science and a philosophy forum. Maybe they will have the answer.


I can hear the snoring already

I would prefer to keep any resultant discussion separate, to the respective forums.
.

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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby dan » Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:33 pm

Chorlton,

Belief in progress would have been lunacy, a few centuries ago.

Show me the law that says that Progress will always rise, and I will STFU.

.
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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:33 pm

Nothing is real.....


And this includes you, too, Dan. Seeing as how you have now removed even yourself from relevance, you won't mind if I don't imbue anything whatsoever that you say with any level of importance.

I mean, you are not real, right?
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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby dan » Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:49 pm

Ray,

Bottom line is that your and my reality are contingencies.

Contingent upon what, is the only question that will matter, in the endtimes.

If you would like to put this on a scientific basis, just consider the reality of Schroedinger's Cat, in its own little endtimes scenario.
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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby ryguy » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:41 pm

dan wrote:Ray,
Bottom line is that your and my reality are contingencies.


If you mean that the idea of "material progress" within the context of the "industrial age" - then yes, I agree that cultural values, beliefs and focus may change over time. Today's reality:

- Drive 30 minutes in to work
- Sitting 8 hours at a desk (or working at a job site)
- Driving 30 minutes home

For the purpose of earning and saving money to "advance" financially and materially - that may appear as ludicrous a concept as we view the idea of sitting around a campfire, smoking hallucinogenics and praying to the gods the earth and sky to bring us food.

Maybe what drives all of us and creates this reality, at the core, is a base need to survive - to not die. Many people worry about so many things, but at the core that worry comes from the fight-or-flight response related to our ancient days of pure, unadulterated survival. We've now transferred that natural adrenaline rush into our daily lives, even when failure will not mean instant death. There are no more predators at our heels - but there sure are debt collectors, yes?

Contingent upon what, is the only question that will matter, in the endtimes.


Staying alive. That's all. Nothing else will ever really matter.

If you would like to put this on a scientific basis, just consider the reality of Schroedinger's Cat, in its own little endtimes scenario.


If you are still promoting the old "paradigm shift" that one weed-smoking hippy or another has been promising since the 1970's - leading to various cults with their own false dogmas. Why go through the trouble of starting your own cult, Dan - there are plenty to choose from (just join one!):

List of EndTimes Cults (I've pasted my favorites)

1. Unarius. - Whacky UFO cult. The mass UFO landings are to take place in 2001.

3. Ted Hall Y2K collapse o' civilization guru/doom cryer. - Collapse of civilization due to Y2K bug foretold in Book of Revelation. Sells book, "Beat the Beast!".

4. Chuck Missler. - Koinonia House - UFO/Christian sect. The Nephilim are posing as aliens. the final days are upon us. Arranges holy land cruises. Visit Armegeddon, Isle of Patmos where Revelations was written. Fun Biblical Character Masquerade parties on ship.

5. Church Universal and Triumphant. - Prophet now has altzheimer's and the cult is selling it's land in Montana. Elizabeth Clare Prophet still maintains end is nigh.

7. Concerned Christians - This is the sect that disappeared in Colorado. Oh where, oh where has my little church gone, oh where, oh where can it beeeeee... Denver is supposedly ground zero for the Apocalypse this fall, well missed that one.

10. Floyd (Looks fro Buffalo) Hand - Pine Ridge Indian Reservation, South Dakota Indian UFO cult.

Ancient Hopi and Sioux prophecies are the foundation for Floyd's visions. The Star people will soon be arriving. They will be picking up Indians and a few other chosen enlightened persons. In 1999, we will have a major drought, then floods and earthquakes.

11. House of YahwehAbilene, Texas. - Yisrayl Hawkins claims to be the Biblical "witness" who'll preceed Jesus's second coming. They have an armed compound where Hawkins and his followers will await the coming of Jesus in 2000.

15. Kenna E. Farris Savanah Missouri - Christ will return in 3000. But first, we must have great changes. Starting waith a "prophet president", a 24 nation barter banking trade center and horse sense economics. Self published manifestos explain all.

21. The Brethern Boston Mass - AKA The Grabage Eaters. Brother Evangelist Jim Roberts preaches that the Great Tribulation is upon us.

26. The Center for Study of Extraterrestrial Intelligence - Ashville, North Carolina. UFO study group has been trying to entice UFOs to land. Believes they are here to share new paradigm millenial conciousness. Our government has been shooting down UFOs queering the deal temporarily.
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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:58 pm

dan wrote:Ray,

Bottom line is that your and my reality are contingencies.

Contingent upon what, is the only question that will matter, in the endtimes.


You seem to assume that both of our realities need to be based on the same contingencies. Another setup for "Dan is right and everyone else has to be saved?" If so, sell it elsewhere.

If you would like to put this on a scientific basis, just consider the reality of Schroedinger's Cat, in its own little endtimes scenario.


That is wholly a thought experiment, hence it is even further from reality than your musings.

Try again?
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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby dan » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:05 pm

Ry,

For the past several centuries, we have labored under the paradigm of progress.

I'm less concerned about a paradigm shift than I am about a paradigm un-shift.

It's not so much that the clock will be turned back, but rather that the clock will stop turning.

We will, then, for the first time in 'modern' history, be face-to-face with eternity, not to put to fine a point of it.

Am I looking to form a post-modern Cult? No.

I'm looking to engage the best minds in the world, in the nature of eternity.

If I cannot so engage, may we easily dismiss the possibility that someone will?

Will there be anything else that matters, besides the next paycheck?

.
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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby dan » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:24 pm

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:
dan wrote:Ray,

Bottom line is that your and my reality are contingencies.

Contingent upon what, is the only question that will matter, in the endtimes.


You seem to assume that both of our realities need to be based on the same contingencies. Another setup for "Dan is right and everyone else has to be saved?" If so, sell it elsewhere.

If you would like to put this on a scientific basis, just consider the reality of Schroedinger's Cat, in its own little endtimes scenario.


That is wholly a thought experiment, hence it is even further from reality than your musings.

You and I share some contingencies......?

Well, both of our realities are contingent upon the future of homo-sapiens and/or the future (continuity) of consciousness.

If consciousness is discontinuous, i.e. fragmented, rather than monistic, then in whose (phenomenological) imagination did you and I ever exist?

Everyone else has to be saved? Well, as a monist, are we not all in the same boat, or is it only the OTHER end of the boat that appears to have hit the Iceberg?

We all hang together, or we all hang separately. Where, Ray, do you place your ultimate concerns? With your next paycheck, like Ryan?
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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby ryguy » Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:18 pm

dan wrote:Will there be anything else that matters, besides the next paycheck?
.


I didn't say that's what "matters" - I said it's how modern culture defines "material progress" and was curious if that's how you are using the word. From your response it appears you are.

What "matters" is what has always mattered - survival...and actually even higher than survival is love. I would instantly give up my life for my child - so survival isn't even the most important "thing." Love is, when you get right down to it.

That is how it was, and that is how it will always be. What makes you believe in this magical "transition" at some point? The reason I brought up the cults is because that is the recurring theme in the foundation of every cult - a point where everything changes, armageddon, the big change, the transformation of global consciousness, etc...etc...ad nauseam.

-Ryan
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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby dan » Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:36 pm

Ryan,

How many people believe that there is a God? How many of those believe that God is love?

Actually, you and I belong to a not insignificant portion of humanity.

However, you and I both know that most of the best and brightest amongst us are paid big bucks to give lip-service to other worldviews.

I count myself as potentially responsible to call their bluff.

I may not succeed. But, my friend, would we not rather fail at that which will succeed, that to succeed at that which will fail?

Why cannot you and I have a common cause, in this regard?
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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby ryguy » Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:47 am

dan wrote:Ryan,

How many people believe that there is a God? How many of those believe that God is love?


Fewer every day.

Actually, you and I belong to a not insignificant portion of humanity.

However, you and I both know that most of the best and brightest amongst us are paid big bucks to give lip-service to other worldviews.


If you mean science - there is a place for science and material "reality" within the worldview that includes God and love. I think this is where we differ. I've found a comfortable place for science to work hand-in-hand with the concept of God. I think this is the only area where we probably differ - you seek an impending global event that will do away with the science problem. I don't see that impending event ever happening, because this material reality will continue on long after we're all gone. Science helps us examine that which is real, all around us. It isn't going anywhere.

I count myself as potentially responsible to call their bluff.


I don't see it as a bluff. I do feel that they are not able to incorporate god into their science (some of them). Why is it your responsibility to tell them that they are wrong?

I may not succeed. But, my friend, would we not rather fail at that which will succeed, that to succeed at that which will fail?

Why cannot you and I have a common cause, in this regard?


The issue of fitting science appropriately into the mix would always be a concern - but I admit there are times when I do see the potential for a common cause.

-Ryan
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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby dan » Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:22 am

Ryan,
If you mean science - there is a place for science and material "reality" within the worldview that includes God and love. I think this is where we differ. I've found a comfortable place for science to work hand-in-hand with the concept of God. I think this is the only area where we probably differ - you seek an impending global event that will do away with the science problem. I don't see that impending event ever happening, because this material reality will continue on long after we're all gone. Science helps us examine that which is real, all around us. It isn't going anywhere.

Science has its ambitions........

Consider the Theory of Everything (TOE) and/or the Grand Unified Theory (GUT).

Where in science, qua science, has there ever been the rejoinder to Laplace, that 'they' have no need of that (God) hypothesis?

Someone will make them eat those words. I have every intention of being that someone, with a little help from my friends.

Would you care to join in this 'conspiracy' to subvert materialism?
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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:12 am

Dan,

First and foremost, do not waste your typical rhetoric with me. It has never worked, I see right thru it, and it shall never work. Stop preaching to me via what you think to be deep and relevant questions. Especially if you do really want to have a dialog with people, and not simply have their adoration (which is what I suspect is your reason for deeming yourself the new messiah). If you really do want this, then you must speak to other people in their realities, not yours. I submit that your refusal to do this is the reason behind your abject failure to do what you say you wish to accomplish at every forum you visit.

And another thing: I am willing to answer your questions (those I find interesting and relevant to my reality), but ONLY if you stop ducking my DIRECT questions to you. This next question of yours is the last one of yours I will answer (promise) unless you stop ignoring and avoiding my questions to you.

Where, Ray, do you place your ultimate concerns? With your next paycheck, like Ryan?


No. Ryan gave the reality-based answer. And it also shows up as my highest priority, for I am a practical person about the Massive SpaceTime manifold that we meat puppets are trapped in. Hence, my priorities are:

1) Survival. And this is meant in a very literal, individualistic manner. I can discuss my planning for how I intend to survive if/when the s^~t hits the fan, if you are interested. Its hallmark is that of personal responsibility.
2) Learning.
3) Teaching.

And with only a couple years to go before I cross the half-century threshold, the last two are slowly starting to change places in the priority listing.

EVERYTHING else, and I do mean everything, is taken on an ad-hoc, decide-as-I-encounter-it manner. That is called maximizing my living in the present.

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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby Chorlton » Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:42 am

dan wrote:Ryan,

How many people believe that there is a God? How many of those believe that God is love?

Well in the 60's I did, then reality woke me up
[/quote]
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