Nothing is real.....

Holographic Universe or Computer Simulation? Big Bang or God?

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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby dan » Sun Dec 05, 2010 3:01 pm

AD,
It doesn't matter what my take on Reality is, I'm only concerned with that which can be determined based on the evidence at hand. Beyond that I have no clue...

You might wish to do your homework, and then attempt to properly qualify you very bald statement.

.
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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby Access Denied » Sun Dec 05, 2010 7:35 pm

"Philosophy of science is about as useful to scientists as ornithology is to birds."
~ Richard Feynman
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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby dan » Sun Dec 05, 2010 10:36 pm

AD,

So you and Dick are saying that the AI folks do well to ignore the mind-body problem?

And the physicists do well to ignore the Anthropic problem?

On this latter point, you are in agreement with Ron, but his motivation was somewhat more explicit than Dick's.

But I don't suppose that motivation, in any way, impinges upon your Objectivism.

.
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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby Access Denied » Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:33 am

I think Ayn probably mixed too much of her politics in with her philosophy and that ultimately led to both being marginalized by liberal critics… much like you with your anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny.

[to borrow a phrase from Carl]

Try…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalism_(philosophy)
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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby dan » Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:50 am

Golly, AD, if your so smart then I'll bet you can tell us if Zombies are natural or unnatural!

Just wondering.........

.
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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby Access Denied » Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:17 am

Unnatural. It's absurd...
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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby dan » Mon Dec 06, 2010 2:55 pm

Golly, AD, you must think I'm even dumber than I look!

You appear to take an overweening pride in fact that you don't take any wooden-nickels, not at least in the paranormal arena. But, by your above, very glib, statement, you demonstrate that you are a sucker for the biggest wooden-nickel that has ever been foisted upon any audience in any arena.

See, you've figured out that the Paranormalists are just a bunch of scammers.

What you have not yet gleaned, AD, is that the Normalists/Naturalists are an even bigger bunch of scammers.

Gee, let me think what your response will be......

Now you're going to tell us that, in science, all the facts are double-checked..... double-checked.....

Hmmm........

Gosh, that'll be a tough one for me to handle! I'm already shaking in my boots.....
---------------------

But, AD, while we're waiting for you to prepare for intellectual combat, I've got another little question for my neophyte naturalist.......

Are numbers natural?

.
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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby Access Denied » Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:51 am

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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby dan » Tue Dec 07, 2010 3:53 pm


Hmmm........

Wrong. Numbers are not natural, they are normal, as in normative. Also they are abstract.

For instance, consider, Logic which is the study of Truth. Where would mathematics be without logic? Where would logic be without robust notions of truth and proof?

Truth and proof are strictly Normative. Yes?

The whole point of the 'Unreasonableness' of mathematical-physics is that it demonstrates that the 'physical' is fully imbued with the mental, i.e. the World is much more like a Great Thought than a great machine. No? So what?

This little discursion started off when I asked for your take on the nature of Reality. You responded.......
It doesn't matter what my take on Reality is, I'm only concerned with that which can be determined based on the evidence at hand. Beyond that I have no clue...


So, AD, tell me, now, whether it is unreasonable to suppose that the world is a Great Thought. And, if so, ought we not be asking ourselves about whose thought it might be, and, more to the point, whose thought you and I might be?

Should this question not also be a primary concern to anyone who wishes to study phenomena that purport entail Visitation?

Do not paranormal and/or paraphysical phenomena force us to question the very nature of Reality?

.
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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby Access Denied » Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:24 am

dan wrote:Numbers are not natural, they are normal, as in normative. Also they are abstract.

In and of themselves I can concede this point. However, I do believe integers are natural in the sense they have a 1:1 correspondence to Reality…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_numbers

dan wrote:Where would mathematics be without logic?

Good point, in some cases irrational.

dan wrote:Where would logic be without robust notions of truth and proof?

In the mind of Dan Smith?

dan wrote:Truth and proof are strictly Normative. Yes?

I think you lost me there. Forgive me for Philosophy is not one of my strong subjects…

dan wrote:So, AD, tell me, now, whether it is unreasonable to suppose that the world is a Great Thought.

I think so.

[therefore I am?]

By definition Reality exists independently of there being anyone around to contemplate it therefore I see no reason to invoke a conscious creator to explain it.

dan wrote:And, if so, ought we not be asking ourselves about whose thought it might be, and, more to the point, whose thought you and I might be?

No, my thoughts are my own unless they happen to be yours too and you can pry them from my cold dead hands thank you very much. To my original point, one must be careful to distinguish between Reality and Phenomenological Reality. So sayeth Wiki…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality

Reality is the state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or may be thought to be. In its widest definition, reality includes everything that is and has being, whether or not it is observable or comprehensible.

[…]

On a much broader and more subjective level, private experiences, curiosity, inquiry, and the selectivity involved in personal interpretation of events shapes reality as seen by one and only one individual and hence is called phenomenological. While this form of reality might be common to others as well, it could at times also be so unique to oneself as to never be experienced or agreed upon by anyone else. Much of the kind of experience deemed spiritual occurs on this level of reality.

So how do we distinguish between these two forms of Reality? Good question, I’m glad you asked. I submit that Science is the sole Arbiter of Truth in regards to what is Real in the absence of a more objective tool… in which case the Science of Psychology (albiet still in it's relative infancy) is perhaps the best tool we have for understanding personal experience.

dan wrote:Should this question not also be a primary concern to anyone who wishes to study phenomena that purport entail Visitation?

Primary, no. However, I will concede it might be a concern if you can propose a plausible mechanism for any putative (lowercase) visitors to have had a hand in shaping our evolution and by extension, ultimately our thoughts… you know, something that can’t be explained by any other means.

dan wrote:Do not paranormal and/or paraphysical phenomena force us to question the very nature of Reality?

Force us, no. However, I will concede that superstitious beliefs in the paranormal naturally lead many folks to question it…
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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby dan » Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:49 pm

AD,
By [AD's] definition Reality exists independently of there being anyone around to contemplate it therefore I see no reason to invoke a conscious creator to explain it.
Now you're just playing semantics.

[wiki...] Reality is the state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or may be thought to be. In its widest definition, reality includes everything that is and has being, whether or not it is observable or comprehensible.

The wiki definition is rather less biased toward Objectivism than is your definition.

The hypothesis that I bring before you is that existence is more thought-like than thing-like.

According to your definition, thoughts are Unreal. You have thereby ruled everything besides materialism to be groundless or unreal.

Yes, this is the primary Presupposition of modern civilization.

If you are mentally incapable of entertaining a less biased notion of Reality, then you are in no better position to weigh the evidence than is the bible-pounder.
--------------------------

I have a call into Ron, now, to take him up on his offer to have a philosophical/metaphysical discussion, pursuant to my being interviewed by George Knapp. I am requesting that he lend his support to that interview.

A key point to Ron is that there is a pall of materialist orthodoxy cast upon all modern secular institutions. Why ought this be of any concern to him?

For several reasons.......

1.) The USG is tasked with tracking phenomena that might pose a threat to its citizens. Said Threat Assessment is liable to be misguided, if it is misinformed concerning the ontological basis of said phenomena.

2.) Even if it is determined that the Source of the phenomenon of note is not scientifically objectifiable, as has been averred, then the USG is still (implicitly?) responsible to employ whatever unconventional means may be indicated, in order to properly dispatch its duties.

3.) The USG is also responsible to maintain order in times of national/international crisis.

3a.) There are adequate reasons (based in part on #1 and #2) for seriously considering that the ongoing economic/resource crisis may not be unrelated to said phenomena, past, present or future.

It is with these thoughts in mind, that I wish to obtain Ron's blessing, pursuant to the proposed interview by George Knapp, during which I wish to explore the possibilities raised in #3a.

.
Last edited by dan on Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:07 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Nothing is real.....

Postby Gary » Wed Dec 08, 2010 3:56 pm

"Reality is the state of things as they actually exist, rather than as they may appear or may be thought to be. In its widest definition, reality includes everything that is and has being, whether or not it is observable or comprehensible."

And what in reality is the common linkage between Dan's great thought and AD's observables?

It is the multiverse ... the totality of everything that can exist in principle. And to what end is the multiverse of use in out tiny BPW infinitesimal share of all that could ever be?

"INFORMATION, we want INFORMATION."

"I am not a number, I am a great thought!" -- Dan Smith

[Evil laughter from the depths of reality] .... Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahha :-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prisoner

And what exactly did the Ouroboric circuit offer Adam in the Garden?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Man

INFORMATION

Dan, I suspect we are in need of an intelligence exorcist! Do you know any? ;-)
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The Multiverse, Many Worlds and Beyond

Postby Gary » Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:07 am

Tegmark's excellent pop explanation of the many worlds of the multiverse, and beyond...

http://www.closertotruth.com/video-prof ... gmark-/884
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