Scientific Proof that God Exists

Holographic Universe or Computer Simulation? Big Bang or God?

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Postby wetsystems » Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:14 pm

ryguy wrote:
While many focus on Light, it is also important to acknowledge and respect the Darkness - for if you do not respect the Darkness, the Darkness will not respect you.


Yes, I agree with Toon in a way (you have to understand his humor)....but I believe this is only semantic. Instead of "respect" the Darkness, I think the statement above would be more true and accurate if it read:

".....for if you do not appreciate the inherent power and capabilities of the Darkness, the Darkness will not appreciate the inherent power and capabilities within you."

Serp simply did not define what he meant by "respect"....but I'm guessing the statement above is precisely what he meant. And it's quite true.

-Ry


Actually, Ry, I was only pointing out that these kinds 'of stoney raps' seem always to devolve into some sort of soul-scorching, manecheistic pap. Even the Catholic church realized this early on by replacing irresolvable dualism with a synthetic (albeit mystical) trinitarianism in a necessary obeisance to the natural law of Dialectic. Where does manecheism lead? ...to Serp's gratuitous final remark concerning the abject evil of Islam, unfortunately. Such conclusions are heroically unhelpful.
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:21 pm

wetsystems wrote:mystical) trinitarianism in a necessary obeisance to the natural law of Dialectic. Where does manecheism lead? ...to Serp's gratuitous final remark concerning the abject evil of Islam, unfortunately. Such conclusions are heroically unhelpful.


You sir, are misquoting Serp. Nowhere did he imply that all of Islam is evil. I would appreciate if you do not take people's words out of context in the course of your debate, or misquote them. For the record, here are Serp's exact words (I would suggest you use the power of quoting to avoid this in the future...unless it was your intent to obfuscate)...

~ By this criterion, is it any wonder that Radical Islam appears Satanic?


Note the qualifier "Radical" attached to "Islam". This has quite a different connotation than you have ascribed in your revisionist comment.

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Postby wetsystems » Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:32 pm

'Radical,' to me, implies 'root'- the basic truth of any ideology, i.e. first principles. The word does not have a pejorative connotation to my way of thinking. Had he used the word 'false' in its stead this would be a different discussion.

But don't feel obliged to take my word for it- you can consult Webster. Oh, never mind, here- I've done it for you:

Main Entry: 1rad·i·cal
Pronunciation: 'ra-di-k&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Late Latin radicalis, from Latin radic-, radix root -- more at ROOT
1 : of, relating to, or proceeding from a root: as a (1) : of or growing from the root of a plant <radical tubers> (2) : growing from the base of a stem, from a rootlike stem, or from a stem that does not rise above the ground <radical leaves> b : of, relating to, or constituting a linguistic root c : of or relating to a mathematical root d : designed to remove the root of a disease or all diseased and potentially diseased tissue <radical surgery> <radical mastectomy>
2 : of or relating to the origin : FUNDAMENTAL
3 a : marked by a considerable departure from the usual or traditional : EXTREME b : tending or disposed to make extreme changes in existing views, habits, conditions, or institutions c : of, relating to, or constituting a political group associated with views, practices, and policies of extreme change d : advocating extreme measures to retain or restore a political state of affairs <the radical right>
4 slang : EXCELLENT, COOL


For further elucidation go here: http://www.strike-the-root.com/
Last edited by wetsystems on Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Postby ryguy » Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:56 pm

As you know, a word has different meanings. For example "yellow" can be a color, or it can refer to someone as a coward. Two very different meanings for the same word. You can't apply the first meaning to the word when someone is calling another person "yellow" for being a coward.

In this case, toon, you've completely overlooked Serp's intended meaning, which is #3 in the list of meanings you've offered:

3 a : marked by a considerable departure from the usual or traditional : EXTREME b : tending or disposed to make extreme changes in existing views, habits, conditions, or institutions c : of, relating to, or constituting a political group associated with views, practices, and policies of extreme change d : advocating extreme measures to retain or restore a political state of affairs <the radical right>


...and have selected meaning #1 instead. Meaning #1 is not even implied in what Serp wrote when the context of his sentence is taken into consideration.

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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:13 pm

wetsystems wrote:But don't feel obliged to take my word for it- you can consult Webster. Oh, never mind, here- I've done it for you:


All this exhibits is that you are willing to quote Webster (and select the incompatible definition) to "make yourself right", but you were not willing to quote Serp directly (and in context). The reason seems clear: Because you wanted to paint something into Serp's words that was not there. Such behavior on your part is heroically distracting (and unnecessary).

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Postby wetsystems » Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:25 pm

Definition #3 works for me as well. Cartoons have ink in their veins and take words seriously. Sloppy thinking pisses them off. Some radicals whom I admire: Sam Adams, George Washington, Tom Jefferson, Marx, Freud, Albert Einstein, Plato, and Jesus Christ, Cartoonsyndicate, et al.

Let's talk English, not ragtime.
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Postby wetsystems » Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:27 pm

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:
wetsystems wrote:But don't feel obliged to take my word for it- you can consult Webster. Oh, never mind, here- I've done it for you:


All this exhibits is that you are willing to quote Webster (and select the incompatible definition) to "make yourself right", but you were not willing to quote Serp directly (and in context). The reason seems clear: Because you wanted to paint something into Serp's words that was not there. Such behavior on your part is heroically distracting (and unnecessary).

Ray


All the definitions apply. A root is a root is a root.

(I feel a banning coming on...)

Here's the quote in question: "...is it any wonder that Radical Islam appears Satanic?"

Satan! OMG!!! Radical! sacre bleu!!! Let's hide before they get us!!!!!!!
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Postby ryguy » Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:42 am

wetsystems wrote:Definition #3 works for me as well. Cartoons have ink in their veins and take words seriously. Sloppy thinking pisses them off.


They must be pretty ticked off at you right about now then.

Osama bin Laden:

"Every Muslim, the minute he can start differentiating, carries hate towards Americans, Jews, and Christians; this is part of our ideology. Ever since I can recall I felt at war with the Americans and had feelings of animosity and hate toward them. "

Interview broadcast on al-Jazira television. December, 1998.

For you to compare the above radical to these "radicals" (Sam Adams, George Washington, Tom Jefferson, Marx, Freud, Albert Einstein, Plato....) is pretty disturbing. In fact, I'd wager that each of them would disagree with you (if they were still alive...and could.)

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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:45 am

wetsystems wrote:
You Can Call Me Ray wrote:
wetsystems wrote:But don't feel obliged to take my word for it- you can consult Webster. Oh, never mind, here- I've done it for you:


All this exhibits is that you are willing to quote Webster (and select the incompatible definition) to "make yourself right", but you were not willing to quote Serp directly (and in context). The reason seems clear: Because you wanted to paint something into Serp's words that was not there. Such behavior on your part is heroically distracting (and unnecessary).

Ray


All the definitions apply. A root is a root is a root.

(I feel a banning coming on...)

Here's the quote in question: "...is it any wonder that Radical Islam appears Satanic?"

Satan! OMG!!! Radical! sacre bleu!!! Let's hide before they get us!!!!!!!


Off topic nonetheless, and indicative of your favorite hobby of thread-jacking. I have a novel idea... why not allow Serp to state his intention, and then decide whether you are right or wrong in your interpretation? Indeed, if you read Serp's entire post (instead of cherry pick for items you can start controversy with) you would have also seen the following point Serp made:

While Mathematics may be the language of God, there is more to language than simple letters or numbers. Shorn of Intention, mere words have no meaning.


So what that means is your proclamations of what Serp meant are subordinate (and I would say likely in error, but we will let Serp be the judge) to what Serp's INTENTION was.

wetsystems wrote:(I feel a banning coming on...)


As a seemingly intelligent person recently wrote to me in a private EMAIL "If the foo s**ts..." I must honestly say I would not shed a tear. :roll:

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Postby Serpentime » Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:00 am

My apologies for the confusion.

My use of the term "Radical Islam" referred to an extant POLITICAL philosophy, not the religion of Islam.

Akin to Nazism - which also harnessed its "legitimacy" to the Pagan religious beliefs espoused by the Thule Society and its cohorts - Radical Islam twists the INTENTION of the Prophet Mohammad (Peace be upon him) and uses the words of the Holy Quran to promote a POLITICAL ideology of religious hatred, murder, and persecution.

In my opinion, it is VERY important to distinguish between the political creed of the Jihadists, and the Intent of the religion that they profane.

~ It is, in fact, this very sort of confusion that the "Radicals" count on to disable the will of their intended targets - be they Muslim or non-Muslim, alike.


Hatred is the tell-tale signature of Iblis at work in the hearts of men; Iblis being the Arabic word for Satan.


Osama bin Laden:

"Every Muslim, the minute he can start differentiating, carries hate towards Americans, Jews, and Christians; this is part of our ideology. Ever since I can recall I felt at war with the Americans and had feelings of animosity and hate toward them. "


Hate is the ("differentiating") philosophy of Radical Islam.



Back to the topic at hand,

Serp ;)
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Re: Closing In On A Meta-Narrative?

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue Jul 10, 2007 3:05 am

Serpentime wrote:Back to the topic at hand,


I agree.

Serpentime wrote:BCPS postulates that Massive SpaceTime Matrix ©2003 Tree-O-Life.org is a simple and elegant descriptor for the physical nature of Reality. Is it correct to assume, therefore, that MSTM corresponds to Malkuth?


Precisely, Serp. Further to this, if we accept that the tendency of our conscious mind is to decompose the integrated Matrix of Massive SpaceTime into its apparant components (as a rough approach to understanding this Matrix), we could further associate the 3 paths that converge at (emanate from) Malkuth as being the RELATIONSHIPS which the conscious mind uses to understand this Matrix. In other words, I would propose that these 3 paths be given the names "Mass", "Space", and "Time", which are the (approximate) metrics used by science to describe the nature of our integrated reality.

I could provide other thoughts on this topic that would bring in the thoughts of David Bohm and his idea of "Implicate Order" vs. "Explicate Order". But I will hold off until interest is expressed in such an offshoot.


In referring to a "Massive Continuum", my allusion was to what Caryn identified as the “Consciousness Continuum”; That is, the sum (or synergy) of all fundamental metrics at a Macro-Cosmic amplitude (?).


Indeed, this is precisely what I view as "all that stuff on the TOL above Malkuth". :) It is this "Consciousness Continuum" that I assign (for convenience) the names "Mind, Soul, and Spirit". ;)

Or, in simpler terms, I AM. The complete Awareness of Matter in Motion.


I couldn't have summarized it better myself.

Might this “Massive Continuum” – in fact – be logically interpreted to suggest that the Cosmos itself is a living “Being”? Or perhaps, even, a “living” component / sub-system / manifestation of an even greater living “Being” – given that logic seeks / demands context?


Yes, this is precisely how I would logically interpret it. But given that I approach all understanding of our cosmos from a Systems Theory perspective, this should come as no surprise. Science has verified for us that all Matter exhibits and/or possesses Motion.

Spiritual Science has its own epistemology (ie, its own theory of knowledge) that recognises that each branch of knowledge has its peculiar and specific manner of investigation appropriate to its field;

ethical or moral stance, namely ethical individualism, that recognises that each act and situation has to be considered on its own merit; and

path of development towards freedom or, rather, the state of 'freehood' that engenders genuine spiritual activity.


To me, these three precepts form the basis for Spiritual Realization – as opposed to simple reductionism – and as such embody the true meaning of Science.


And how interesting that it is an ordered set of THREE... ;)

While Mathematics may be the language of God, there is more to language than simple letters or numbers. Shorn of Intention, mere words have no meaning.


I've already addressed this in my reply to wetsystems, but it is worthwhile to include it again and to highlight the operative word.

And I thought to the Sun:

As you are my body, I am your Spirit;

As you are my mind, I am your Soul.



A Prayer for the Sun; ©1999 Serpent-Time Productions.



To me, this prayer recognized the Sun as the source of my Action and Formation, while enabling – and ennobling – myself as the dream of the Sun’s Creation and the agent of its Emanation.


Ray, where did I go wrong?

Or Right?


I see nothing wrong with this. The Sun certainly emanates energy which has made possible the continuous Creation here on earth. This process of Creation resulted in the Formation of sentient life, such as ourselves, which in turn permitted us (as closed-loop Beings) to take creative Actions of our own.... thus propagates the Fractal Algorithm! ;)


The Sun and I would value your opinion. :)


And it is just my opinion, but it is backed by science in addition to a grand (and extensive) mystical tradition!

I’ll suggest that I’m only musing here, but if I were to consider the “Massive Continuum” as a Dream, then my own Awareness (with all of its Degrees of Freedom) might be seen to constitute dreams within dreams within a Dream.


Fractal embedding, as exhibited all throughout Nature, can hardly be seen as a "dead end". It is, in fact, the process that appears to fuel continuous Creation.

“Lucid Dreaming”, I believe, is the term which is used to describe mastery of the dreaming subconscious. In other words, rather than being held captive to the ebb and flow of the emerging subconscious (as Freud seemed to understand it?), the Lucid Dreamer is able to control and direct these energies toward a conscious pattern. The dreamer takes control of the dream.


Was it not Carlos Castaneda who first wrote about how the first thing the "dreaming student" should attempt to accomplish is to "raise your hands within your dream and focus on them"? Once again I could not find any way to argue with you on this, Serp. As we have discussed in the past, the ability to "close a control loop" is one of the most fundamental aspects of intelligence. And it would appear to be that the "next outer loop" that our consciousness should seek to close is that of the dreaming context.


In fact, I often wonder if this is not the intrinsic challenge of Life itself?


One thing is for certain: Once you close the "next highest loop" you can be certain that a new phenomenon will emerge...

”To seek out new worlds, new civilizations… To boldly go where no man has gone before”, as Gene Roddenberry put it.


Such is Realization in motion. ~ Hypothetically speaking, it is also the same “universal” imperative that would bring “Alien” civilizations to Earth.


And with that urge can come both ends of the spectrum of consciousness... by that I mean "good and evil". We would be wise to welcome one, but also be prepared for the other.

Perhaps by way of “systemic” analysis, we may also begin to derive the foundations of a Universal morality?

Those Actions and Intentions that are intrinsically aligned with the spiritual “Whole” may be scientifically (?) qualified / quantified to be “Holy”.


I would like to think that this is, indeed, the social imperative of our time. By appealing to the science of Systems Theory, there is a very real possibility that we can describe a Universal morality that finds its basis in systemic principles (and the fractal algorithms) that should both encompass, and also eclipse the stated goals of any religious INTENTION.

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Postby Access Denied » Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:47 am

wetsystems wrote:While never intended to brake this discussion I do intend to elevate it.

Did I miss something?
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Postby wetsystems » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:05 am

Access Denied wrote:
wetsystems wrote:While never intended to brake this discussion I do intend to elevate it.

Did I miss something?


Apparently so.
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Postby wetsystems » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:30 am

Serpentime wrote:My apologies for the confusion.

My use of the term "Radical Islam" referred to an extant POLITICAL philosophy, not the religion of Islam.

Akin to Nazism - which also harnessed its "legitimacy" to the Pagan religious beliefs espoused by the Thule Society and its cohorts - Radical Islam twists the INTENTION of the Prophet Mohammad (Peace be upon him) and uses the words of the Holy Quran to promote a POLITICAL ideology of religious hatred, murder, and persecution.

In my opinion, it is VERY important to distinguish between the political creed of the Jihadists, and the Intent of the religion that they profane.

~ It is, in fact, this very sort of confusion that the "Radicals" count on to disable the will of their intended targets - be they Muslim or non-Muslim, alike.


Hatred is the tell-tale signature of Iblis at work in the hearts of men; Iblis being the Arabic word for Satan.


Osama bin Laden:

"Every Muslim, the minute he can start differentiating, carries hate towards Americans, Jews, and Christians; this is part of our ideology. Ever since I can recall I felt at war with the Americans and had feelings of animosity and hate toward them. "


Hate is the ("differentiating") philosophy of Radical Islam.



Back to the topic at hand,

Serp ;)


Here's the difference between you and me on this issue. While agree with you the OBL is an evil man I don't see him as an adherent to, or representative of, Radical Islam. I see him and the Wahhabist cult in general, as false Muslims. In the same sense I see Pat Robertson not as a radical Christian but rather as a false Christian. The most radical Christian is one who adheres to the Beatitudes, e.g. 'blessed are the peacemakers.' There is certainly a counterpart to this teaching in the Koran despite all the mayhem and nonsense otherwise contained in that book. It might be noted that similar dross is contained in our own Pentateuch and is not considered to be the radical essence of those 5 books.
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Postby wetsystems » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:47 am

ryguy wrote:
wetsystems wrote:Definition #3 works for me as well. Cartoons have ink in their veins and take words seriously. Sloppy thinking pisses them off.


They must be pretty ticked off at you right about now then.

Osama bin Laden:

"Every Muslim, the minute he can start differentiating, carries hate towards Americans, Jews, and Christians; this is part of our ideology. Ever since I can recall I felt at war with the Americans and had feelings of animosity and hate toward them. "

Interview broadcast on al-Jazira television. December, 1998.

For you to compare the above radical to these "radicals" (Sam Adams, George Washington, Tom Jefferson, Marx, Freud, Albert Einstein, Plato....) is pretty disturbing. In fact, I'd wager that each of them would disagree with you (if they were still alive...and could.)

-Ry


I never compared Osama Binladen to any of these radical philosophers and to ascribe this point to me is a gross insult. (Thanks a lot.) The man you're quoting is full of hate and therefore evil. But he is not a radical Muslim. He is a false Muslim, a cultist, who has hijacked the religion for his own purposes. While the true message of radical Islam (submission to the will of God) is not my cup of tea I respect it as a religious belief. Osama and his perverse band of dour cut-throats, I reject out of hand.
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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