Scientific Proof that God Exists

Holographic Universe or Computer Simulation? Big Bang or God?

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Postby ryguy » Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:17 pm

Ok - This discussion (re: Radical Islam) is fine, and interesting, but doesn't belong in this thread. We're detracting from the discussion at hand, and the purpose of this thread, which is:

Scientific Proof that God Exists

If the discussion of Radical Islam is to be continued (as I think it should), it would probably be best as a new thread in the Politics forum.

And Toon - sorry if I insulted you, it wasn't meant as an insult, it was simply how I understood (or misunderstood) your earlier point. My apologies.

Any further posts referring to Radical Islam (not referencing the subject of this thread) will be moved to a new thread elsewhere.

Best,
-Ry
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Postby wetsystems » Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:11 pm

Apology accepted even though not required. We all ought to take a solemn oath to read one another's posts carefully and compassionately. I'm as guilty of not living up to this high ideal as anyone else here. Time for the pledge. "To Clarity!"
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:02 pm

For Serp and others who can appreciate its implications:

http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/audio/newevidence.htm

(You can read as well as listen at the above.)

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Postby I.P.Freely » Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:08 pm

Other then the guy trying to seem like a christian by science rather then a christian scientist if you know what I mean. It was very interesting and confirms some of what I already believed. Though I will never be so naive to believe I could be wrong as long as I remain in this body. I have always had to laugh at people who assume the world was created in 6 solor days now thats naive. Good find ray thanks

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Postby wetsystems » Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:57 pm

I.P.Freely wrote:Other then the guy trying to seem like a christian by science rather then a christian scientist if you know what I mean. It was very interesting and confirms some of what I already believed. Though I will never be so naive to believe I could be wrong as long as I remain in this body. I have always had to laugh at people who assume the world was created in 6 solor days now thats naive. Good find ray thanks

IPF


Thanks for reading this schtick for me! I'm way over this stuff, in spite of what the puppy-boyz present! K
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:18 am

I.P.Freely wrote:Other then the guy trying to seem like a christian by science rather then a christian scientist if you know what I mean. It was very interesting and confirms some of what I already believed. Though I will never be so naive to believe I could be wrong as long as I remain in this body. I have always had to laugh at people who assume the world was created in 6 solor days now thats naive. Good find ray thanks


Thank you, IPF. I agree with your comment about the author's attempt to use this material to support a christian view of religion. The reason for my sharing is the material he shares on information theory, and the fact that information (which is different from the media that carries or propagates information) can only occur "by design from a mind". I would think this material is something that Dan Smith would take liking to. Here is another good page of his specifically with Q & A's on information theory:

http://www.cosmicfingerprints.com/infotheoryqa.htm

I also appreciate the way the author challenges those who believe so many of the parameters for life in our universe could be "just the right value" all by coincidence:

Let me give you an example. If I were to flip a coin 10,000 times and it were to come up heads 10,000 times in a row, you could conclude that the coin has been fixed with a purpose to come up heads. That's the rational bet.


And yet folks like Richard Dawkins wish us to believe that a whole set of parameters are perfectly aligned (with a much lower probability than 1 in 10,000), and we should not assume there is a purposeful design behind it? yeah, right.

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Postby I.P.Freely » Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:21 am

meant to say I would not be so naive to believe that I could not be wrong
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Postby Serpentime » Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:40 am

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:One thing is for certain: Once you close the "next highest loop" you can be certain that a new phenomenon will emerge...


Ray,


As you’ve pointed out before, it seems as if our “strings” are oscillating at similar frequencies. LOL

Just for fun, would you mind if I Share another one of my “odd” Gnostic ruminations with you?


The more that I reflect on the GATHER-REPEAT-SHARE-TRANSFORM paradigm, the more I am drawn back (for some reason?) into my own paradigm of Serponian Logic © 1997 Serpent-Time Productions ;), which postulates: “I perceive, therefore I am”.


According to Webster’s Dictionary, the word perceive is defined as:

1. To attain awareness or understanding of;

2. To become aware of…



In addition the word perception is defined as:

1. A result of perceiving;

2. Awareness of the elements of environment through physical sensation.



Further, Peter Lindsay & Donald A. Norman (Human Information Processing: An Introduction to Psychology, 1977.) describe perception as:

…the process by which organisms interpret and organize sensation to produce a meaningful experience of the world.


To the best of my knowledge, many other descriptions of perception similarly attribute this “phenomenon” to a “loop” of process.



Again, just for fun – and with these definitions (and Gowan and Jaccaci’s fractal matrix) in mind – might I then propose the following meditation regarding (stellar) nuclear fusion?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------


~When one hydrogen atom Gathers another hydrogen atom – through gravity – within our Sun, the two atoms Repeat together and Share energy with their environment.

Seven light minutes away, this energy Transforms the Earth and produces emergent Consciousness.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Or, in other words:

~ When one hydrogen atom becomes aware of (perceives) another hydrogen atom through physical sensation (Gather and Repeat / interpret), the two atoms complete an act of “perception” by releasing energy (Share), and “emerging” into the new physical form of helium (organize), while modifying their extant environment (Transform / produce meaningful experience), and furthering the “chain reaction”.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Concordantly, Serponian Logic postulates that the GATHER-REPEAT-SHARE-TRANSFORM model likely also describes (?) the process of “perception” as defined by Lindsay and Norman, and Webster’s.

Viewed from this perspective, Gowan and Jacacci’s Fractal Organization of Nature, might also emerge as an argument for “Fractal Perception” as the fundamental basis of Cosmology (?).


~ Just curious, but what do you think? Am I making any “sense”? :?


All meaningful critiques are welcome.



While I would be delighted (LOL) if a proper particle physicist could translate my layman’s GSS / “perception” into numbers (…if any of this can be so “validated”?), perhaps – in such a manner – we might be able to postulate that the process of perception (GATHER-REPEAT-SHARE-TRANSFORM?) is the basis for creation, itself?


That being: Perception CREATES reality.

{Hence, implicitly (?), also: the Cosmological requirement for FAITH, the validation of the “power” of Positive thinking, the common adage “you are what you believe”, and so forth… (?)}



Again, Serponian Logic is only my own BPCS, but (for whatever reason?) it strongly suggests to me that the fulcrum of any Grand Unified Theory (or Meta-narrative?) must mathematically describe the unity of Perception to the physical world.


Emerging, hypothetically, from these “numbers” would be the Meta-paradigm of “Fractal Perception” as the basis for all Realization.


Or,

Your nature is pure awareness. You are flowing in all things,
And all things are flowing in you.

-- Ashtavakra Gita 16


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


You Can Call Me Ray wrote:Further to this, if we accept that the tendency of our conscious mind is to decompose the integrated Matrix of Massive SpaceTime into its apparent components (as a rough approach to understanding this Matrix), we could further associate the 3 paths that converge at (emanate from) Malkuth as being the RELATIONSHIPS which the conscious mind uses to understand this Matrix.

…I could provide other thoughts on this topic that would bring in the thoughts of David Bohm and his idea of "Implicate Order" vs. "Explicate Order". But I will hold off until interest is expressed in such an offshoot.


That would be terrific. The more "finely hewn blocks" that you (or others) can bring to my "Pyramid", the better. :)


Speaking of simultaneous convergence and emanation, might “Implicate” vs “Explicate” be compared (metaphorically) to the Integral / Differential, or am I reading something into that that isn’t there?


I’m lucky to add 2+2, sometimes… LOL ;)


You Can Call Me Ray wrote:
Serpentime wrote:”To seek out new worlds, new civilizations… To boldly go where no man has gone before”, as Gene Roddenberry put it.

Such is Realization in motion. ~ Hypothetically speaking, it is also the same “universal” imperative that would bring “Alien” civilizations to Earth.


And with that urge can come both ends of the spectrum of consciousness... by that I mean "good and evil". We would be wise to welcome one, but also be prepared for the other.


Not to belabor the point, but that was exactly what I was inferring through my “Respect the Darkness” observation.


For example:

~ If we are to understand our own essence through the paradigm of Awareness, then I can only infer that any “Awareness” that would be (hypothetically) capable of crossing interstellar space-time to visit the Earth would be – by definition – a SUPERIOR Awareness.

Travel (at the least) is “broadening”, is it not?

~ And with that SUPERIOR awareness may come Intentions and motivations that we mere Humans may find difficult – if not impossible – to fully comprehend and/or “come to terms” with.

Though this may be an extreme instance, I often doubt that the relative Awareness of a lab rat could fully appreciate the SUPERIOR Human INTENTION for growing a man’s ear on its back!! :shock:


It is here, I believe, that an emergent Humanity – that cannot even identify or empathize with its own essence, never mind the “lesser” beings of its own world – may face the greatest challenge it has ever encountered, in the form of SUPERIOR Awareness (i.e. Beings) from elsewhere.

In my own opinion, we have simply NOT YET affected the Spiritual Science to “recognize” how this unprecedented “situation” must be “considered” on its own unique “merit”.


Conventional Reductionism (IMO) will not serve us (well) in such a novel and demanding interface.


You Can Call Me Ray wrote:
Serpentime wrote:Perhaps by way of “systemic” analysis, we may also begin to derive the foundations of a Universal morality?

Those Actions and Intentions that are intrinsically aligned with the spiritual “Whole” may be scientifically (?) qualified / quantified to be “Holy”.


I would like to think that this is, indeed, the social imperative of our time. By appealing to the science of Systems Theory, there is a very real possibility that we can describe a Universal morality that finds its basis in systemic principles (and the fractal algorithms) that should both encompass, and also eclipse the stated goals of any religious INTENTION.


Just for fun, I’m starting to wonder what a TEN COMMANDMENTS of Systems Theory would look like?


Perhaps the FIRST COMMANDMENT might stipulate:

”Thou shall serve no system that does not serve the Supersystem.”

Which would correlate to the FIRST COMMANDMENT of Moses.


Then again, I’m sure that others could probably add a few more ideas… :)




Serp



> BTW, I enjoyed Dr. Ross' lecture. :) In my opinion, there is MUCH to be said for the essence of the fine-tuning and BALANCE that Ross describes as intrinsic to the Cosmological "endeavor".

~ This is where Man falls victim to "Dualism", in my opinion, as he separates himself from the fine "balance" from which he naturally occurs, and enters a self-generated state of IMBALANCE from which he eternally struggles to emerge back into full unity with Godhead.


In simplest terms, this state of "Dualism" may be thought of as a fundamental MIS-PERCEPTION. ;)
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:04 pm

Hi Serp,
Serpentime wrote:Just for fun, would you mind if I Share another one of my “odd” Gnostic ruminations with you?


I'd be sad if you DIDN'T do so! :)

To the best of my knowledge, many other descriptions of perception similarly attribute this “phenomenon” to a “loop” of process.


Yes. My own arrival at this same understanding many years ago is what gave me insight for part of the reason I selected a career focus of "closed-loop control systems". Not simply because it satisfied my technical objectives of designing aircraft control systems, but because it also would come to aid my personal investigation of the link between Mind and Body.


Or, in other words:

~ When one hydrogen atom becomes aware of (perceives) another hydrogen atom through physical sensation (Gather and Repeat / interpret), the two atoms complete an act of “perception” by releasing energy (Share), and “emerging” into the new physical form of helium (organize), while modifying their extant environment (Transform / produce meaningful experience), and furthering the “chain reaction”.


It dovetails very nicely with the human experience, does it not? This line of thinking is also congruent with my own GSS telling me that "networking" is one of (if not the most) important processes which sentient life engages in. Furthermore this thought always brings me back to the statement in Matthew:

Matthew 18:19-20 - "Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

These words, attributed to Jesus, are some of the evidence that I apply that he also was in-tune with his GSS. He understood the "process of perception" and how it lead to Creation. Just my opinion... ;)

Viewed from this perspective, Gowan and Jacacci’s Fractal Organization of Nature, might also emerge as an argument for “Fractal Perception” as the fundamental basis of Cosmology (?).


~ Just curious, but what do you think? Am I making any “sense”? :?


I find nothing to disagree with here. So I guess another way of stating what you are trying to get across might be: "The INTENTION (purpose?) of Matter in Motion is to Perceive." Fair enough?

While I would be delighted (LOL) if a proper particle physicist could translate my layman’s GSS / “perception” into numbers (…if any of this can be so “validated”?), perhaps – in such a manner – we might be able to postulate that the process of perception (GATHER-REPEAT-SHARE-TRANSFORM?) is the basis for creation, itself?


I think the evidence is clear. But I am not sure a "particle physicist" would be the one to see and accept that evidence. This is where I give a nod to Dan Smith's idea that reductionism is a dead end. There are not any extant "particles". We only PERCEIVE them as being particles. In reality (?) what we perceive as reductionist particles are actually interactions. An effect which is the result of an interaction of two or more "things"... there's the throwback to that Matthew citation again! :)


Again, Serponian Logic is only my own BPCS, but (for whatever reason?) it strongly suggests to me that the fulcrum of any Grand Unified Theory (or Meta-narrative?) must mathematically describe the unity of Perception to the physical world.


Yes. It must take into account not only Matter in Motion, but the Perception thereof. The whole ball of wax, as it were! :) This is where David Bohm's ideas were (are) significant, IMO.

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:Further to this, if we accept that the tendency of our conscious mind is to decompose the integrated Matrix of Massive SpaceTime into its apparent components (as a rough approach to understanding this Matrix), we could further associate the 3 paths that converge at (emanate from) Malkuth as being the RELATIONSHIPS which the conscious mind uses to understand this Matrix.

…I could provide other thoughts on this topic that would bring in the thoughts of David Bohm and his idea of "Implicate Order" vs. "Explicate Order". But I will hold off until interest is expressed in such an offshoot.


That would be terrific. The more "finely hewn blocks" that you (or others) can bring to my "Pyramid", the better. :)


Here are a couple of links to read-up on Bohm's ideas of Implicate vs. Explicate Order.

http://www.fdavidpeat.com/bibliography/ ... padova.htm
Rather than seeking a quick resolution between the subjective and objective I feel that it is valuable to hold on to the differences and paradoxes and use them as pointers to something deeper. As Wolfgang Pauli put it, now that psychology has discovered the objective within consciousness (Jung's collective unconscious) so too physics must discover the subjective in matter. He also suggested that physics must come to terms with "the irrational in matter."

Ray's note: The correspondences between Wolfgang Pauli and Carl Jung are also replete with associations to an "information field" that is beyond matter.

What Bohm was speaking about in this context was what he called "active information". Bohm proposed that quantum processes are guided by information - not passive information in the form of encoded data but an actual activity of information. (snip)

For Bohm, information is an activity that acts on both matter and energy. He also connected the idea of active information to the operation of the immune system, which he saw as a form of intelligence delocalized over the whole body. For Bohm a change of meaning in the mind became a change of actual being in the body. (snip)

Discussions of mind and matter always run up against limitations of language and formalism. Much of out thinking and language is based within a world of space, time and causality. Bohm termed this the Explicate Order and proposed that a radically different Implicate, or Enfolded, Order exists. Within this order the duality of matter and mind obtain their resolution. What appear as distinct objects, well separated in space and time are, within the Implicate order, enfolded each within the other. What at one level appears as object at another becomes process.


http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/sci ... at-boh.htm
(This is more a history of Bohm, with some juicy tidbits on his Implicate Order)
In Bohm's view, all the separate objects, entities, structures, and events in the visible or explicate world around us are relatively autonomous, stable, and temporary "subtotalities" derived from a deeper, implicate order of unbroken wholeness.


http://uncletaz.com/library/scimath/pilotwave.html
Underlying the apparently chaotic realm of physical appearances-the explicate order-there is always a deeper, implicate order that is often hidden. Applying this concept to the quantum realm, Bohm proposed that the implicate order is the quantum potential, a field consisting of an infinite number of fluctuating waves. The overlapping of these waves generates what appear to us as particles: these constitute the explicate order. Even such seemingly fundamental conceprs as space and time may be merely explicate manifestations of some "nonlocal, deeper implicate order', according to Bohm.


A couple notes here:

1) The above quote should be viewed in terms of my call to integrate the notion of SpaceTime with Mass...hence the Integrated Matrix of Massive SpaceTime. (c) 2004 Tree-O-Life.org.
2) The idea of overlapping waves that create our percetion of "real electrons" (and thus more macroscopic phenomenon) has been taken further than Bohm's initial ideas by Dr. Milo Wolff in the Wave Structure of Matter. I've had the pleasure of lunch with Dr. Wolff as he is a resident of Redondo Beach.

Speaking of simultaneous convergence and emanation, might “Implicate” vs “Explicate” be compared (metaphorically) to the Integral / Differential, or am I reading something into that that isn’t there?


Serp, I think it is more than "metaphorical". I think it is FOUNDATIONAL! The differential represents how we humans perceive Matter in Motion of the Explicate Order! Example: We observe the sun rising as we go to work in the morning, and we note the sun's new position overhead at lunch time. The differential of these two positions is how we come to infer MOTION of that heavenly body of MATTER.

Further, it should then become obvious (at least it is to me) that because the Integral Calculus is all about "bringing together" (integrating) individual entities, that it becomes a foundation of Bohm's Implicate Order because of the Integral's power to take two things, and bring them together to describe their Wholeness.

The stuff we discuss here is, IMO, the foundational material for an Integral understanding of reality through the Perceptions of both the Scientific and Spiritual Points Of View (POVs).

Since I love math :shock: my idea is to "discover" the hairiest of hairy triple integral equations that serves to fully integrate Mass with SpaceTime. Hence, my GSS tells me that the "definition" of the Integrated Matrix of Massive SpaceTime is given by a triple integral over the total volume (Space), total epoch (Time), and total Mass of our "pocket universe" Cosmos. 8)

More later...
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Postby wetsystems » Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:10 pm

Just a brief note. There actually can be no scientific proof that god exists. Because God is simply a definition.
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Postby wetsystems » Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:19 pm

To wit:

Says Dan Smith:

For better or worse, God gave us the power of reason.


Dan typifies the crap that passes for reasoned analysis in this revealing quote.
He assumes that his god 'gives' us the 'power of reason.' In asserting thus, he assumes the God per se- God as given.

God is always 'assumed' in any proof of, or in regard to, her existence. She is simply defined into existence. God is therefore always a given (a priori) in any regime claiming 'proof.'

Proof of god is an age old fatuity. But if it gives you pleasure, continue on. Puppyboy, Serpo, Dan and Jakereason... carry on if it makes you happy. :D
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Postby wetsystems » Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:53 pm

The sword of truth and reason is double-edged; it will cut both Religion and Science down to size……nay, following Jake, it will cut the Idol of Science and Religion down to size!


Dan has obviously been reading my posts. The master of obliquity.

Come back here and confront me, Father Dan. I am forbidden by the Great Minds of OM to go where you are. I see that you've chosen to deal with the little boys and girls over there. Pathology comes to mind but I'm uncertain. That you've said nothing concerning your antagonist, Fore's, proto-porno avatar has me wondering. While it's very easy to dismiss him as a pervert, it is less easy to dismiss you.
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:25 pm

wetsystems wrote: But if it gives you pleasure, continue on. Puppyboy


No doubt your latest means to insult me, eh? If you cannot refer to me by my proper name, how about you not refer to me at all?

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Postby ryguy » Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:37 am

For the record, the Golden Retriever is one of the most trustworthy, honest, and loyal friends known to humankind.

We could do well with many more Goldens in the world.

-Ry
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Postby dan » Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:41 pm

Wet,
Come back here and confront me, Father Dan. I am forbidden by the Great Minds of OM to go where you are. I see that you've chosen to deal with the little boys and girls over there. Pathology comes to mind but I'm uncertain. That you've said nothing concerning your antagonist, Fore's, proto-porno avatar has me wondering. While it's very easy to dismiss him as a pervert, it is less easy to dismiss you.

Was there something on your mind….from a couple of days ago?

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