Im a bit confused??

Discuss what you think really happened in New York on 9/11/2001

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Im a bit confused??

Postby Chorlton » Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:11 pm

I see those people allegedly involved in 11/9 are going to be tried, but in a Military court.
Since when did the military have the right to try civilians?
The military denied those people in Guantanamo bay the right to be called soldiers, hence their denial of rights accorded to combatants.
By doing that they were in fact classifying them as civilians, thereby, in my eyes, losing the right to try them in a Military court.

11/9 was an attack against civilians, they should therefore be tried in a civilian court.
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Re: Im a bit confused??

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:54 pm

Hi Chorlton,

Chorlton wrote:I see those people allegedly involved in 11/9 are going to be tried, but in a Military court.
Since when did the military have the right to try civilians?
The military denied those people in Guantanamo bay the right to be called soldiers, hence their denial of rights accorded to combatants.
By doing that they were in fact classifying them as civilians, thereby, in my eyes, losing the right to try them in a Military court.

11/9 was an attack against civilians, they should therefore be tried in a civilian court.


I could be wrong, but I believe this issue is the very crux of the reason why they were never brought onto US soil.

#1 - None of the beasts that are left are American citizens. Ergo, they are not entitled to receive all the rights of a citizen (or someone brought onto US soil for some crime).
#2 - While one can interpret the 9/11 attacks as being "only on citizens" there are other criteria which make it a military attack, namely, an obvious attempt to harm our economy.
#3 - The Pentagon is NOT a civilian target.
#4 - Al Qaeda has been implicated in other attacks upon military personnel (Khobar Towers and USS Cole, to name just two).

All-in-all, I am quite satisfied that they are enemy combatants. I am not sure what you are referring to when you say the military denied their right to be called soldiers.

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Postby Chorlton » Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:05 pm

The US miltary/government denied they were combatants and denied them their rights as per the Geneva convention.

If one commits a crime on a country then one gets tried by that country, by the civilian courts. It would seem that on the one hand the US is saying that Guantanamo bay is US soilbut on the other it isnt.
If it IS US soil then those people have the right to be tried by a court of their peers and not under any military law. They are civilians according to the US.
If it isnt US soil then the US is guilty of illegally detaining people.

http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/01/us011102.htm
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... _legal.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_X-Ray
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Postby zplix » Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:08 pm

(edited my sarcasm. I am sorry. I love questioning and it was wrong of me.)

http://prisonplanet.com/articles/februa ... atsies.htm

good article, but they tend to still be 'plane hugging'. by that I mean, believing that hijacked Boengs went into the towers, and the media showed what was real.
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Postby caleban » Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:52 am

Since when did the military have the right to try civilians?


Technically, before 12 August 1949. Surely you remember something about
Hitlers Death Camps ?

Geneva Convention relative to the treatment of prisoners of war, AFTER
1949. (Civilians finally covered.)

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm

There has always been a problem with enemy combatants who become spies or disguise themselves in the uniform of the side they are fighting. Historically, they are executed. Non-signatories of the Geneva Convention fall in this category. Especially when you read the following extract:

"To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:

(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;

(b) Taking of hostages;

(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;

(d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples. "

I really like this one:

"The parties to a conflict must at all times distinguish between the civilian population and combatants in order to spare the civilian population and civilian property. Neither the civilian population as whole nor individual civilians may be attacked. Attacks may be made solely against military objectives."

The US miltary/government denied they were combatants and denied them their rights as per the Geneva convention.


These scumbags are neither combatants under the convention, nor civilians. They have NO rights to be denied, and even spit on the Geneva Convention. Your Human Rights Watch references are notable by their failure to even acknowledge the other side. (They are probably afraid they would be be-headed if they were to approach the barbarians.) The Military is the ONLY authority with current power over these rabid psychos. In spite of that, they are humanely treated and eat better than our own troops who captured their sorry hides. As long as they are not in the boundary of the US, no civilian agency has any authority whatsoever. That is as Congress has established it. Only Congress can change it. Here ya go, the Constitution:

Article I, section 8. (Powers of Congress)

To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
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Postby Chorlton » Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:49 am

Caleban, please dont try sabre rattling, is doesnt impress.
Also dont quote your constitution at me. Its valid in the US thats all, the US is not the world, nether is the US the worlds policeman.

Some of the people in Guantanamo bay were illegally kidnapped and tortured.

Seems to me the US is doing exactly what they did and those 'soldiers' in Guantanamo bay should also be classified as illegal combatants and hostage takers.
Bullies with bigger guns than anyone else are still bullies.
You really cant have it both ways.

You dont demonstrate humanity by acting like an animal.
Overall I dont agree with what terrorists do, but if someone invaded my country, I'd do the same thing,

If the US is so convinced that it is right then bring those people in Guantanamo bay to the US and let them have your 'due process' with full and proper legal representation. What is the military so scared of?
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Postby caleban » Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:47 am

Caleban, please dont try sabre rattling, is doesnt impress.


Your questions, not mine.

Also dont quote your constitution at me.


The answer I believe is not what you seek.

Overall I dont agree with what terrorists do, but if someone invaded my country, I'd do the same thing,


I think you are answering yourself. "You really cant have it both ways."

What is the military so scared of?


People who can actually read ? Never mind.

Allow me to compliment your choice of forum topic. Highly appropriate !
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Re:

Postby lost_shaman » Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:28 am

Chorlton wrote:Caleban, please dont try sabre rattling, is doesnt impress.
Also dont quote your constitution at me. Its valid in the US thats all, the US is not the world, nether is the US the worlds policeman.

Some of the people in Guantanamo bay were illegally kidnapped and tortured.


Now hold on,... If 'we' Citizens of the U.S. can't or shouldn't quote 'our' Constitution, then what 'rules' should 'we' (the U.S.) be following?

This is an interesting Idea... What if the U.S. just decided to adopt the Local 'rules of engagement' of the 'enemy' force being engaged? :wink:
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Re:

Postby ryguy » Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:27 pm

Chorlton wrote:You dont demonstrate humanity by acting like an animal.
Overall I dont agree with what terrorists do, but if someone invaded my country, I'd do the same thing,

If the US is so convinced that it is right then bring those people in Guantanamo bay to the US and let them have your 'due process' with full and proper legal representation. What is the military so scared of?


From their actions, it seems pretty clear that they are afraid of the fairness that is part of the nature of the U.S. Justice system. They are afraid that "Due Process" will allow guilty parties to go free. However, in that fear - they are allowing their slip to show. That is - if they are afraid that the Justice System isn't capable of identifying and convicting a guilty party...then how on earth are we supposed to trust our Justice System to be capable of identifying and protecting an innocent party?

They cling to military tribunals because they know that the U.S. Justice system isn't perfect - sometimes innocent people are murdered by the system, and sometimes guilty people walk free. But to think the military tribunal is a "more perfect" form of justice is laughable.

Terrorists need to be punished harshly for their horrible acts against humanity. However - all Muslims or Middle-Eastern Men are not Terrorists. We rounded up the Japanese nationals during WWII and put them into camps to "protect them", we watched as the world went to war with a country that classified all Jews and Minorities into particular "groups" as well....yet we never learn from history. That's the worst part of all of this - that we continue doing the same things, and classifying entire groups of people in bigoted and racist ways, as though we are so damn ignorant of how these same actions caused so much human suffering in the past.

We Never Learn

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Re: Im a bit confused??

Postby uberarcanist » Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:30 pm

I agree. If the US is so sure these men are guilty (hint-these men are NOT guilty), why not just prove it publically in a court of law?
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