The collapse of the WTC Towers 1, 2 and 7

Discuss what you think really happened in New York on 9/11/2001

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Postby Hydden » Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:12 pm

(just playing devil's advocate here...)



...unless those thousands of people were running for their lives trying to dodge walls of rushing ash and debris. It's not like when they do it in Vegas and people *know* where the safe areas are and can watch from a safe place.

It was mass chaos that day and there are conflicting reports even between firefighters in their own squads about what happened in certain situations. Some say they heard what sounded like detonations going off, others say they heard debris falilng and hitting obstacles in their path. Some firefighters say (about building 7) that they were told to evacuate because "they" were going to "pull it," while others say that when they heard "pull it" that it meant for them to get their men out of there. Some people accused of being forewarned deny it while mayor Guilliani (sp?) admitted from his own lips that he received a call to stay out of the building that day.

You do have to admit that even if you don't believe any of the conspiracies about 9/11, that alot of the data that's been brought forth doesn't make sense with some of the things we've been told.

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Postby ryguy » Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:34 pm

Hydden wrote:(just playing devil's advocate here...)

...unless those thousands of people were running for their lives trying to dodge walls of rushing ash and debris. It's not like when they do it in Vegas and people *know* where the safe areas are and can watch from a safe place.


That's right - demolition of a building, or "imploding" a building requires a lot of safety precautions to be put in place, typically. A lot of shielding around the demolition sites inside and around the building are put up to prevent flying debris from flying a few blocks down the road and crushing someone - as well as virtually destroying buildings around it.

So - whether it's "possible" that teams covertly entered the building, planted enough explosives to take down two huge towers (ignoring the safety precautions...since this was to "look" like an accident, right)...and then detonated the explosives after the two planes hit... Possible? I think so. IPF said to ignore whether it was probable, only whether it's possible - so I'd say even though it would be near impossible, yes, it's still possible.

Some say they heard what sounded like detonations going off,


If you watch the documentary with the live footage from the lobby of one of the towers, you actually hear some of those sounds. And I can completely understand why people would confuse the "BOOOM" of a body falling on the ceiling of the lobby and the connecting tunnel with the sound of detonations.

Some people accused of being forewarned deny it while mayor Guilliani (sp?) admitted from his own lips that he received a call to stay out of the building that day.


Now that's interesting. Do you happen to have a quote or source for that?

...that alot of the data that's been brought forth doesn't make sense with some of the things we've been told.


I don't know...I've yet to see anything that really convinces me that what occurred on that day was more than two planes being flown into two buildings, and those two buildings coming down, creating mass hysteria, confusion, and then the usual myths, stories and conspiracy theories that typically go along with such earth-shattering events... I've yet to see anything that's really at all convincing that there were any explosives or anything "planned" about it at all.

Except the fact that U.S. foreign policy in the middle-east made such an event necessary. So as far as whether or not events on 911 were orchestrated by U.S. "interests" - I'm not saying that they weren't. I actually suspect that they were orchestrated. I just haven't seen a single piece of evidence that is at all convincing that anyone went in and planted explosives. The planted explosives were middle eastern militants piloting planes hundreds of stories up. Only IMHO...

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Postby I.P.Freely » Mon Jan 08, 2007 3:59 pm

I was only asking about building 7 I won,t even touch the subject about the tower with ten foot pole(at least not yet) My whole purpose here is to 1. To gain a better understanding on some of the issues that are floating around from those here who understand these things better and 2. See if its unreasonable or not to suspect something is not as we are being told.
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Postby Zep Tepi » Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:13 pm

Hydden wrote:(just playing devil's advocate here...)


I like it when someone does that ;)

...unless those thousands of people were running for their lives trying to dodge walls of rushing ash and debris. It's not like when they do it in Vegas and people *know* where the safe areas are and can watch from a safe place.


The area had already been evacuated because of the well-documented danger of collapse. Many cameras were pointing at building 7 because all of the experts agreed it would collapse, which it eventually did. It is extremely relevant that not one of those cameras detected the tell-tale signs of a controlled demolition, and that no one present heard the tell-tale signs of controlled demolition.

It was mass chaos that day and there are conflicting reports even between firefighters in their own squads about what happened in certain situations. Some say they heard what sounded like detonations going off, others say they heard debris falilng and hitting obstacles in their path.


I've seen a documentary where one of the firefighters said "it sounded like explosions going off, boom, boom, boom". He was referring to the floors collapsing on one another and simply made a reference to what it sounded like, and not what it was.

As Ryan mentioned above, the sound of the many jumpers hitting the canopy and the ground was something else that must have been horrific for those present. It was an almost constant barrage of falling bodies. One firefighter was killed after being hit by someone.

Some firefighters say (about building 7) that they were told to evacuate because "they" were going to "pull it," while others say that when they heard "pull it" that it meant for them to get their men out of there.


There was only one "pull it" reference, and that was by Larry Silverstein on a documentary that aired on PBS. That particular reference has been used by the majority of conspiracy sites in a way the original comment was clearly not intended.

Some people accused of being forewarned deny it while mayor Guilliani (sp?) admitted from his own lips that he received a call to stay out of the building that day.


Sorry to be so blunt, but that is quite simply not true.

You do have to admit that even if you don't believe any of the conspiracies about 9/11, that alot of the data that's been brought forth doesn't make sense with some of the things we've been told.

Hydden


I agree with you, especially in the context of the big picture. The majority of the sites that promote the idea that "this happened" or "that happened" are being extremely dishonest both to themselves and to their readers. Far too many people simply accept what they have to say without looking at the data. I believed a lot of the nonsense regarding 911 because I was lazy and it sounded like it could be true. I will be presenting a lot of my own findings in the near future.

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Postby Hydden » Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:10 pm

As far as Guilliani goes.....I actually remember seeing a video of this somewhere where someone (reporter?) asked if he had received a call prior to that day and he did, in fact, say that he was told to change his plans from being downtown that day. Now, whether this was just a meeting reschedule that coincided with what happened or not, because of that call, he was nowhere near downtown on that day when he normally would've been.

It's been so long, I have no idea where to even find that video - you may want to contact Alex Jones and see if he has anything on this. I remember that, though, because I've always wondered why no one followed up on that statement (and other statements from people who were warned to stay away that day)

There was also (supposedly) a child in a school classroom downtown that made a statement to a teacher, while pointing at the towers, that they wouldn't be there "next week." I never heard a follow-up on that one either, but the child was said to be of middle-eastern descent.

Anyway....not sure about the child, but I remember seeing the video of Guilliani.

It's been said, "Truth is sometimes stranger than fiction."
So, don't be too quick to dismiss a conspiracy theory just because it's been labeled as such. If you (meant in general) do that, you're no better than mainstream media talking about UFO stories and making jokes about it on the 11 o'clock news. (flipping the bird to O'Reilly, you putz!)

Hydden

P.S. I know mentioning Alex Jones to some people will stop them from reading the rest of what's said after it, but if anyone would have a copy of that video, it would probably be him....which is why I mentioned him.
Last edited by Hydden on Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Zep Tepi » Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:21 pm

If there does exist a video where he says that, you can bet your life on his comments having absolutely nothing to do with the attack. Like you said, *IF* he had said in this context it would be used by all and sundry to promote the idea of fore-knowledge.

If I remember correctly, and I will have to look this up, he was at the building 7 command center for a short while prior to the first tower collapsing.

As far as the comment by the middle-eastern girl goes :shock:
I think I will refer you to www.snopes.com (The Urban Legend website) - They have that particular story there as well as a few others of a similar "bent".

As for Alex Jones, I will reserve comment ;)

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Postby Hydden » Mon Jan 08, 2007 8:50 pm

I wouldn't doubt that the little girl story is on Snopes....or if was just made up. Like I said, I wasn't too sure on that one.

But, again, I did see the video of Guilliani saying that shortly after the attack, and it was in the middle of a slew of questions he was being asked, so I don't think I took it out of context. I really wish I had a copy of that video. I think it would shock you (or anyone) to see it, because I know it shocked me......that's why I continue to wonder why nothing else has been said about it.

Other known names were mentioned in this interview too about being fore-warned but he said he couldn't comment on those, only his own.

Then...it's like that whole aspect of the story was never mentioned again.

With ALL due respect (cause I love you guys here), please try to be open minded that this really was said instead of "knowing" it's not true, or couldn't be possible. I saw this video with my own eyes - it's not second hand rumors.

Granted, if the video was found and I was drunk off my ass when I watched it (and I don't drink), I would apologize for even bringing it up. It's just something I thought was interesting to mention and see if anyone else might know more about why it was dropped so suddenly.

Hydden

EDIT: I forgot to add...

During the anniversary of the event, a CNN (I believe?) reporter was busted in an interview because he was talking about how there definately was a plane that had crashed into the Pentagon...that he remembered it because he covered it "Live" just after it happened.

Then, when they rolled the old clips of that day, he kept saying over and over that he didn't see a tail, a fuselage or any kind of plane debris at the scene and wondered what had hit it. He stammered his way out of it and said that he was told later by investigators that it *was* a plane....but recently was claiming that he, himself, saw these things when he never did.

I loved that interview....
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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Mon Jan 08, 2007 10:57 pm

Then, when they rolled the old clips of that day, he kept saying over and over that he didn't see a tail, a fuselage or any kind of plane debris at the scene and wondered what had hit it. He stammered his way out of it and said that he was told later by investigators that it *was* a plane....but recently was claiming that he, himself, saw these things when he never did.


so where are the passengers? killed or captured by the illuminati to shut 'em up? yeah! good work, lucifer!! you da man!
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Postby Zep Tepi » Tue Jan 09, 2007 2:22 pm

Hydden, I think I have found what you were referring to.

I haven't been able to find anything that suggested Giuliani was forewarned about the actual attacks. That would have been massive news to be honest and it's quite apparent that none of the conspiracy sites even mention it.

However, I have found numerous references that he was forewarned that the South Tower was going to collapse, and for some reason these conspiracy sites think that is significant - it isn't.

For example, at Alex Jones's website Prison Planet (with video)

We first reported this 15 months ago but we have now received the video where then Mayor of New York Rudolph Giuliani admits to Peter Jennings that he got a warning that the South Tower was about to collapse.

Why is this important?

No steel framed building had ever collapsed from fire damage before in history. The event was unprecedented. To know the building was about to collapse would require inside knowledge of 'the 9/11 script' and how it was supposed to unfold on that fateful day.


What complete and utter BS. What Alex fails to mention is what I mentioned in an earlier post. No steel framed building has ever been hit by a fuel-laden Jetliner before in history. To suggest the towers collapsed from fire damage alone is extremely dishonest and outright wrong.

No "inside knowledge" is needed either. Taken from "102 Minutes - The Untold Story of the Fight to Survive Inside the Twin Towers" by Jim Dwyer and Kevin Flynn, Arrow Books ISBN 978-0-09-949256-6

Pages 203-204
Not only were the rescuers unable to communicate with the people they were trying to help, they often could not communicate among themselves. A number of city agencies sent representatives to 7 World Trade Center, the headquarters of the Mayor's Office of Emergency Management, about 300 yards from the main fire command post on West Street.

By the time John Peruggia, the Fire Department's delegate, reached 7 World Trade Center, that building was being evacuated because of worries that a third plane was bound for New York. So instead of using the mayor's bunker, the emergency-response officials huddled in the lobby. Over the next few minutes, Peruggia heard a warning that he could scarcely believe, but did not dare to dismiss.

An engineer from the Department of Buildings reported that the structual damage appeared to be immense. The stability of both buildings was compromised. In particular, the engineer was worried about how long the north tower would stand.

This was an astounding possibility. Like many others, Peruggia was a veteran of the 1993 bombing, and after that attack, he had heard the presentations about the strength of the two towers. No one could forget he claim by Leslie Robertson, the structural engineer, that the towers were designed to stand up to the impact of a Boeing 707.

The Buildings Department engineer did not care what had been promised a decade earlier, or three decades earlier. In glimpses when the flow of smoke parted, he could see the damage.

Peruggia summoned an emergency medical technician, Rich Zarillo, who was working for him as an aide. He was to go immediately from 7 World Trade Center to the command post where the senior fire commander, Chief of Department Peter Ganci, was located, on West Street, across from the North Tower.

"You see Chief Ganci, and Chief Ganci only," Peruggia said. "Provide him with the information that the building integrity is severley compromised and they believe the building is in danger of imminent collapse."

Peruggia could not communicate with the chief by radio. He simply did not have the means. The emergency operations center had been shut off because of fears that terrorists would fly a third plane into it. The expensive 800-megahertz interagency radios were all in the trunks of cars, unused, because no one with clout in the city government ever got around to pressing the issue. Peruggia himself was not carrying a fire ground radio that morning, because his ordinary assignment did not call for it. In the world capital of communications, he had only one way to get the engineer's assessment to the chief of the Fire Department: to send a messenger dodging across acres of flaming debris and falling bodies. He would have to deliver this warning in person.


Like I said, there are a many other sites that claim Giuliani having foreknowledge the south tower was going to collapse as being significant information. Hopefully I have shown why that is not the case.

The only person I had heard of as having received a warning, in this case "not to fly", was SF Mayor Willie Brown. He wasn't actually warned not to fly, however. Just "Americans should be cautious about air travel." Again, a lot of conspiracy sites jumped on this as if it is significant news.

There are a huge number of small snippets like this that are used by these people who want everyone to believe their view of events on 911. When one starts to crack the surface of the particular 911 conspiracy, it doesn't take long to discover most of the "evidence" is simply based on lies and omission of vital information.

And people wonder why the mainstream press don't touch this? :roll:

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Postby Max » Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:35 pm

cartoonsyndicate wrote:
...so where are the passengers? killed or captured by the illuminati to shut 'em up? yeah! good work, lucifer!! you da man!


Yes, that is exactly right, Toon. That is what many people believe! I have to laugh at the memory of a recent experience of mine on another forum. The thread's theme was that a missile had struck the pentagon. I tried to throw some facts into the discussion from an Air Traffic Control perspective, since I was still working on 9/11, to show how that was virtually impossible. First, I was told I didn't know what I was talking about (don't confuse me with facts). Then they attacked all of the military as non-thinking robots, then they attacked me for holding contrarian views, and by the end of the evening I was banned! Probably a Guinness record for fastest banning ever. That's the passion of some of these conspiracies.

Zep/RY, I could try to write an article on the subject if you all are still interested in old news.
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