Are people fit to govern themselves?

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Re: Are people fit to govern themselves?

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Thu May 22, 2008 2:31 am

Hey Torb,

I think we need to recalibrate! After reading your last post it is very clear to me that we are talking past each other. We are probably a lot closer than you might have thought. But first:

torbjon wrote:okay, we Are kinda getting off onto "what is reality" and I do kinda want to stay more on "politics"...


I kind of agree, but devising a new form of politics and government should be based on reality, no? :) Now let me point out a few things and then suggest a recalibration. When you say things like:

I'm still not seeing any need for a 'closed system' and I'm not sure you are either, if I'm reading you correctly...

(snip)

Anytime we 'close the loop' we limit not only the individual, (something I wish to avoid) but also put a limit on the possible outcomes of the system... An infinite system doesn't do this...

(snip)

No, the system needs to be Open... the Sub Systems need to be closed with focused intentions (build a bridge, educate doctors, develop space faring technologies, etc.) but the overall System needs to be Open, all inclusive, with infinite expansion...


We need to recalibrate with respect to two DIFFERENT concepts which we may have been thinking were the same thing between us:

"Closed vs. Open System" is NOT NOT NOT the same thing as saying "Closing the loop (or several loops) within a system." The former, which you are using, is something I agree with. In other words you don't build a wall around the system, and not let things in or out. No, you MUST have an "open system". But this is VERY different from "closing loops" within the system. This term is a control systems term. It means nothing more than using feedback to constantly and consistently correct what you do to the system (as in "just do it") such that the system dynamics use the feedback to get closer and closer to your intention. Closing loops is a REQUIREMENT to take something that is unstable and out of control, and stabilize it and make it controllable (so that you can achieve a goal...intention). Moreover, when we close loops, we do NOT limit the dynamical state space of the system. We make it more ordered, in some cases, or more intelligent in others. But actually, when you compare the richness of an open-loop system (no corrective feedback) vs. a closed-loop system, we find that a closed loop system is MUCH MORE RICH as a result of the loop closure.

Again, I would point you to Chaos Theory. This form of science is, in fact, based upon the richness that occurs within a system when loop closures ARE present (either natural loop closures, or ones introduced by mankind). So before we go any further, I'd like to hear from you and see if we have "recalibrated", and that you understand that I am completely with you with respect to a system being "open", and that when I am talking about "closing loops" I am talking about something very natural, but very different than "closing off a system" from free inputs and outputs.

This may get us a lot farther. Oh and one more thought to ease your mind:

On a closing note that has little to do with politics, I gather you are a linear time person, yes? Past to Present to Future, right? *sighs*


Incorrect. In fact, again, because of my background in control systems engineering I know that non-linear systems are MUCH more rich...and, in fact, I DO view the actual concept of Time in the universe as non-linear. Rather, it is just the human mind, which always wishes to impose linear organization for reasons of comprehension, that forces time to be linear....when it is not.

I don't perceive it that way... In fact a very large group of people I used to hang out with don't perceive it that way either... many of the 'primitive' peoples I've hung out with are of the opinion that time is circular in nature, not linear.


Consider me in that group of friends, because this is EXACTLY how I view time! And another interesting thing to note: When you view time in this manner, you can easily see that TIME IS A CLOSED-LOOP SYSTEM! :) (Which is NOT the same as saying it is a "closed" system...only that feedback is used to make each time through the cycle of time "better"...closer to one's intentions).

We cool?
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Re: Are people fit to govern themselves?

Postby torbjon » Thu May 22, 2008 6:50 am

oh ya, we be cool...

but I have GOT to get some sleep...

and I'm going to be overly swamped with real life crap these next ten days or so, more than the normal insanity that is my life...

just a heads up

later mater
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Re: Are people fit to govern themselves?

Postby torbjon » Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:28 pm

(I moved this from another thread. I don't wanna derail that conversation... but it IS something I would have blurted out then had I been 'in the room' as it were...)
===
(not targeting you Ray, but this is a beautiful line)

Ray sez:
And both parties just want to stir your emotions to get your votes.


and here you guys are falling for that, getting Emotionally involved, and debating with your hearts more than your heads.

Ray, you're a god, plug the Numbers from the past 100 years of Politics into that super system analyzing brain of yours and run the equations... what do you get? I'm not yanking your chain man, I'm serious. I (and I'm pretty sure many many others) would Respect your findings IF you (or anybody) would just step back and examine this from a Scientific viewpoint as opposed to an emotional one.

100 years ago the American market place was primarily NEED driven. Folks only bought a new pair of shoes when they Needed them, not when they Wanted them. Industry reflected this, producing primarily quality goods in small quantities. People's purchasing habits were driven by Rational thought processes as opposed to Emotional Desires.

Politics functioned the same way. Politicians would explain their platforms in Rational and Logic terms and allow people to make Informed decisions based upon Facts.

We had a pretty kick ass country back then and in general the citizens enjoyed an incredible amount of Freedom and Personal Liberties.

In steps Edward Bernays and ALL of that Changes. We are no longer a collected group of Individuals that can be trusted to make the 'correct' decisions, but rather a bunch of Troggs that need to be lead by an 'elite' group of people who know what's 'best' for us.

Manipulation of the emotions of the masses via psychological warfare becomes the norm in both the economic and political arenas. The manipulation was done by an incredibly small group of people (and still is).

You guys seem to be arguing the 'lesser of two evils' which is a 100% Emotional argument. If this were Any other type of 'problem' both of you would be crunching numbers and running the math and discussing this in a detached manner.

Look at it from this angle:

Problem:
We need to get this bird to Fly.
These are the materials we have to work with.
This is the current schematic on the drawing board THAT MAY OR MAY NOT BE VIABLE.

IF we change the schematic then YES some manufacturers (people) are going to throw a tizzy fit for losing those contracts.

So? So What?

The problem is not to please the contractors. The problem is to get this bird to fly.

Are ANY of the political candidates seriously discussing methods for solving that problem or are they ALL simply pandering to the desires of their pet contractors?

C'mon comrades, yer the brains on this board....

Work The Problem.

(me, chatting politics! Whoda thunk it!! *laughs*)

sorry for the fatuous outburst, carry on.
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Re: Are people fit to govern themselves?

Postby torbjon » Sun Aug 10, 2008 3:53 pm

Bear with me, first cup of the day...

So, the underlining principle of 'We The People' is that sovereignty of this country is in the hands of its citizens. ALL of its citizens. Right? I mean, I know it doesn't work that way, but the concept is that those at the top represent our will... they are a random sampling of the masses intended to generate the most accurate reflection of the entire societies will and desires.... A focus group.

You don't Vote on a focus group.

Part of the privileges of citizenship is the price of Conscription into Public Service.

Citizens are being conscripted on a daily basis in the form of Jury Duty.

Juries are chosen at random and represent a random slice of the community (in theory)

And everybody is cool with the jury system, it's pretty groovy.

So why not Draft Government?

We draft juries, we draft armies... They're Public Service gigs. And those folks are determining the fates our country in the court room and on the battle field. We TRUST the Average American with those responsibilities...

So draft the three branches of Government... they're Public Service gigs too, right?
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Re: Are people fit to govern themselves?

Postby torbjon » Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:30 am

sheesh, you guys just won't Touch this, will you?

It's too logical, too rational, huh? It makes too much 'sense' so Obviously it Must be flawed, right?

Besides, if we Draft politicians then what the 'ell would we have left to Argue about, yes? *laughs*

Okay, ponder this and run the numbers too.

Here's a list of presidents from 1900 to today, and what they did Before they got to be "the prez"

McKinley = Congress
Roosevelt (Teddy) = Governor, Vice President
Taft = Federal Circuit Judge, Secretary of War, etc.
Wilson = Governor
Harding = Senator, Lt. Governor
Coolidge = Governor
Hoover = Secretary of Commerce
Roosevelt (F.D.) = Senator
Truman = Senator
Eisenhower = Supreme Commander of NATO
Kennedy = Senator
Johnson = Senator, Vice President
Nixon = Senator, Vice President
Ford = Congress, Vice President
Carter = Governor
Reagan = Governor
Bush (G.H.W.) = Congress + many offices
Clinton = Governor
Bush (G.W.) = Governor

Taft, Eisenhower and Hoover were the ONLY ones Appointed to high profile positions prior to taking office... ALL THE REST did the "Vote For Me" thing at one time or another prior to taking office...

People who do the "vote for me" thing fall into a very specific Personality Type catagory. A personality type that is Not indicative of your 'average' American.

A quick look at the list shows that Prior Political Experience seems to be a Requirement for landing the title of "prez" and being allowed to determine the fate of this nation...

However, prior jury experience is NOT required before you are allowed to determine the fate of an individual (or corporation or even a State) nor is prior military experience required before they will hand you weapons of mass destruction and allow you to kill in the name of the State...

But to get the Washington DC job, to be labeled "the voice and will of the people", look at how far removed from those people you have to get!

Average People do not aspire to be Jurors, but they make the best ones and the system would crumble without them

Average People do not aspire to be soldiers, but they make the best ones and the system would crumble without them.

Average People do not aspire to be politicians....
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Re: Are people fit to govern themselves?

Postby Access Denied » Thu Aug 14, 2008 9:01 am

OK I'll bite...

torbjon wrote:Besides, if we Draft politicians then what the 'ell would we have left to Argue about, yes? *laughs*

Gives a whole new meaning to "public service" doesn't it?

OK so what sort of minimum qualifications do you think there should be if any?

Who will make up this pool of people with the potential power to “push the button”?

This is interesting…

List of United States Presidents by college education
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Un ... _education

Most are undergrads but…

Law school (lot of dropouts here)
Albany Law School - William McKinley (withdrew)
Columbia Law School - Theodore Roosevelt (withdrew), Franklin Roosevelt (completed requirements but did not officially graduate)
Duke University School of Law - Richard Nixon
Georgetown University Law Center - Lyndon Johnson (withdrew)
Harvard Law School - Rutherford B. Hayes
University of Cincinnati College of Law - William Taft
University of Missouri - Kansas City School of Law - Harry Truman (withdrew)
University of Virginia School of Law - Woodrow Wilson (withdrew)
Yale Law School - Gerald Ford, Bill Clinton

Business school
Stanford Graduate School of Business - John Kennedy (did not graduate)
Harvard Business School - George W. Bush

Medical school
University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine - William Harrison (withdrew)

Doctorate
Johns Hopkins University - Woodrow Wilson

Other graduate education
University of Oxford Rhodes Scholarship - Bill Clinton
Union College Nuclear Studies - Jimmy Carter

Did not graduate from college
Andrew Jackson
William Harrison (attended college but never received a degree)
Zachary Taylor
Millard Fillmore
Abraham Lincoln
Andrew Johnson
Grover Cleveland
Harry Truman – went to law school but did not receive a degree

Also, very few presidents did not serve in the military, Clinton being the most notable example in the last 20 years…

List of United States Presidents by military service
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Un ... ry_service


P.S. I want to say every American male should have to serve at least one term in the military (or law enforcement, coast guard etc… anything that includes boot camp) but no doubt there would be some objections.
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Re: Are people fit to govern themselves?

Postby torbjon » Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:22 pm

"P.S. I want to say every American male should have to serve at least one term in the military (or law enforcement, coast guard etc… anything that includes boot camp) but no doubt there would be some objections."

Ya, I object to that. It should read "every American Citizen" *pokes* sexist bastard.
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Re: Are people fit to govern themselves?

Postby Access Denied » Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:14 am

Yep ya’ got me there…

I actually debated over how to word that but figured I’m more concerned about offending the ladies than I am the women… many women feel they are perfectly capable of defending themselves. I know better than to disagree.

No worries though, I think I have a solution that would be fair to everyone…

AD’S LAW (ver. 0.1)

1. All persons over the age of 18 must serve one term of military service (or other public defense related activity such as law enforcement) beginning before the age of 25 with the following exceptions:

2. Females may choose military service or they may choose public medical service. (I hear that can that be like being in a war zone)

3. Unmarried persons with children are prohibited from combat service or they may opt out entirely.

4. Married persons with children may opt to perform the service themselves or their spouse may opt to perform it but not both.

5. Conscientious objectors may opt out but then they must leave the country immediately and permanently or volunteer for target practice and/or organ donorship.

No?

I would be interested in reading Torbjon’s Law for political service.
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Re: Are people fit to govern themselves?

Postby torbjon » Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:49 pm

AD:

Ya, I'm not sure about any of that... all of those "laws" still strikes me as somewhat sexist and I'm not sure that citizens need or should be conscripted into those services unless it's a state of national emergency. (I feel our current political climate IS a state of national emergency ergo conscription into "politics" is a requirement at this time)

However, I do feel (and always have felt) that the Skills those services provide the individual should be mandatory and taught in the public education system (ie. basic survival skills, basic first aid, and basic offensive / defensive tactics)

I have found that people in possession of all three of those "skills" tend to be more self reliant, more independent, and less terrified of their environment, which, in MY book is a "good" thing... however if you are trying to Control a population then those basic skills need to be kept difficult or expensive to obtain... which they are here in America.

As far as my "laws" for being inducted into political service goes; be of such and such an age (25 for the lower houses, 35 for the hot seat) and be a natural born American Citizen. I think that's it, right?

Both jury and military duty are preceded by a cursory "physical" exam... ("Are you whack?" uh, no... "How many fingers?" uh, three... "Turn your head and cough" Ahem. "Yer in. NEXT!")

This is followed by a brief training period... an explanation of what a jury is and how it works and your part in it or "this is your rifle, it is your friend, there are many like it but this one is yours..." etc.

Political duty would be the same.. brief physical exam, brief training period on how it all works (I'm reminded of those School House Rock vids from way back... "I'm just a Bill, yes I'm only a Bill, and I'm sittin' here on Capitol Hill..."

The actual Jobs themselves are already clearly defined, just plug people into them, follow the procedures, and there you, yer now "governing".
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