Are people fit to govern themselves?

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Re: Are the American people fit to govern themselves?

Postby lost_shaman » Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:28 am

ryguy wrote:On the one side - the military side - we can say, damn straight we need secrecy for the sake of National Security, and to protect our intelligence and military secrets that give us a strategic and military advantage from the probing and spying efforts of foreign intelligence agents. These are critical and important advantages, and AD makes an excellent point that "full" disclosure would be catastrophic for our country.

On the other side - the public side - we must remain cautious regarding too much secrecy. Human nature tends to not behave very well when actions are hidden by the cloak of darkness and sactioned secrecy. Yes - secrets are necessary for the maintenance of a country's financial and military position in the world. However, too many secrets from the people themselves can lead to a core that becomes rotten - a country that appears ok on the outside but is seedy and disgusting on the inside. That's the fear that I think Torbjon is probably expressing, and it's a legitimate and important concern that all of us should be extremely congizant of.

...IMHO

-Ry


But wait... Let me play my role as Devil's Advocate here.

Does a failure to disclose information pertaining to UAP (NOT, E.T. visitation, but UAP!) indicate some undisclosed National Security issue?

If not, then is the U.S. actually "in the dark" concerning the phenomena compared to European Countries, that once considered the U.S. to be a leader in this field (UFO's), and that now acknowledge the phenomena although the U.S. has to date "publically" failed to do so?
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Re: Are the American people fit to govern themselves?

Postby Access Denied » Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:19 am

ryguy wrote:On the other side - the public side - we must remain cautious regarding too much secrecy.

Absolutely!

“Trust, but Verify”
~ Ronald Reagan

ryguy wrote:Human nature tends to not behave very well when actions are hidden by the cloak of darkness and sactioned secrecy. Yes - secrets are necessary for the maintenance of a country's financial and military position in the world. However, too many secrets from the people themselves can lead to a core that becomes rotten - a country that appears ok on the outside but is seedy and disgusting on the inside.

Agreed, however I wouldn’t place too much blame on the military for that perception… I believe the primary responsibility lies with the Intelligence Community. As I’ve said before there's an appalling lack of oversight in my opinion…
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Re: Are the American people fit to govern themselves?

Postby Access Denied » Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:36 am

uberarcanist wrote:I do want to know, however, why you don't think the government has anything.

Here’s what convinced one well known Roswell researcher…

Skeptics UFO Newsletter -4- July 1997
http://www.csicop.org/klassfiles/SUN-46.html

Jeffrey Is First To Interview Many Former Members Of 509th Bomb Group

Although Roswell book authors such as Schmitt, Kevin Randle, Stanton Friedman and Don Berliner brag about how many (alleged) witnesses they have interviewed, if they interviewed former members of the 509th Bomb Group based at Roswell in mid-1947, their books never quote their skeptical views on a crashed saucer. Jeffrey not only wrote to more than 700 former members of the 509th seeking any who might shed some light on the Roswell incident, but he attended their reunion last September in Tucson. As a result, Jeffrey has talked with 15 former B-29 pilots and two navigators who were based at Roswell in mid-1947. Not one of them had heard anything about recovery of an ET craft at the time, Jeffrey reports.

Jack Ingham, who spent 16 years with the 509th from early 1947 and retired as a Lt. Colonel, stressed to Jeffrey that "the 509th was a very close-knit group and there was no way an event as spectacular as the recovery of a crashed-alien spaceship from another world could have happened at their base without them having known about it."

]In early January of this year, in an effort to use every available technique to enhance the recollections of Dr. Jesse Marcel about the debris that his father had brought back from the Brazel ranch and had shown to him 50 years ago, Jeffrey arranged for Marcel to undergo regressive hypnosis in Washington D.C. It was administered by Dr. Neal Hibler, who has achieved fame for his skill in using the technique for forensic purposes. (Jeffrey underwrote both the cost of Hibler's services and the cost of bringing Marcel to Washington, along with his daughter who videotaped more than six hours of recall sessions conducted over a three-day period.) Jeffrey acknowledges that "hypnosis can elicit memories of things that didn't [really] happen, but it can't take away memories of things that did happen." (Emphasis added.)

Dr. Marcel was able to recall a few unimportant new details of what had occurred during the night his father returned with the debris, but no new details about the debris itself. It still consisted of "pieces of metallic foil, a short beam or stick, and a few pieces of plastic or Bakelite-like substance. Certainly such mundane debris would not constitute the wreckage from any kind of sophisticated vehicle or craft, much less one capable of interstellar travel," according to Jeffrey. "In addition to being mundane, the material recovered from the Foster [Brazel] ranch is definitely reconcilable with the debris from an ML-307 radar reflector [carried by the Project Mogul balloon train which was tracked to within about 20 miles of where Brazel found the debris]--the length and cross-sectional size of the beams or sticks, the pieces of foil, and the plastic-like material (now thought to be part of one of the plastic ballast cases that contained sand). Even the color of the symbols that Jesse Marcel, Jr., remembers is almost identical to the color that Air Force meteorologist Irving Newton remembers seeing in [Gen.] Ramey's office." (Emphasis added.)

Jeffrey also acknowledges that his current views were influenced by once "Secret" and "Top Secret" letters written in 1947-48 by top USAF officials which refer to the lack of any crashed UFO which would help identify what UFOs were. One which particuarly impressed Jeffrey was the Nov. 8, 1948, letter from Col. Howard McCoy, Chief of Intelligence for the USAF's Air Materiel Command at Wright-Patterson AFB to Maj. Gen. C.P. Cabell, USAF's Director of Intelligence. In the letter McCoy said that "the exact nature of these objects cannot be established until physical evidence, such as that which would result from a crash, has been obtained." Many Roswell researchers ignore such hard data or, like Michael D. Swords, foolishly claim that "the McCoy letter has nothing to do with the Roswell incident" [SUN #45/May 1997]. (Emphasis added.)

In Jeffrey's MUFON article he says he still plans to present the Roswell Initiative papers to the White House in early July, seeking declassification of any still-classified UFO material. "If no information is being withheld, such action would, nonetheless, have the positive effect of setting the record straight and clearing up years of suspicion and controversy." SUN disagrees. If President Clinton were to respond by announcing that the U.S. had recovered crashed saucers from 49 of its 50 states, but not a single one from New Mexico, Friedman, Randle, Swords and others would still insist that the government was covering up the Roswell crashed saucer.

For more insight on Kent Jeffrey’s change of heart I suggest reading this…

Roswell: Anatomy of a Myth
http://www.roswellfiles.com/storyteller ... ffrey1.htm

uberarcanist wrote:What do you think is going on with the Ramey Memo, Steve?

If you guys want to talk Roswell (kind of off-topic for the political forum I think) I would encourage you to read the following thread where that and many other issues are addressed and then posting any questions you have at the end…

http://www.realityuncovered.com/forum/v ... f=19&t=772

[fair warning... I am to Roswell as Steve and Ryan are to Serpo] :lol:
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Re: Are the American people fit to govern themselves?

Postby ryguy » Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:51 pm

Wow...thanks for the link to the article on Jeff AD....that's a fascinating read. For anyone with any interest in the Roswell "phenomenon" - that, right there, should be required reading.

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Re:

Postby Shawnna » Sun Apr 20, 2008 7:14 pm

Access Denied wrote:
Shawnna wrote::shakeshead:

I'm tempted to leave it at that but...


I've edited my above entry to more accurately reflect what I was shaking my head to within torbjon's post. My apology for not being more clear in the first place.

torbjon wrote:
One of the things all of the current candidates have in common:

They Want To Lead You.

I have no idea of knowing for certain but am willing to go out on the limb and make the assumption that they 'feel' they are better equipped at leading You than You are. They certainly have made no statements or shown any indications of allowing me to lead myself.

They are going to 'guide' me. Not only that, they are going to 'guide' my daughter as well. They are going to lead her into a 'brave new world'.

I'm sorry but that is MY job and I take it Very Seriously.

I resent it when someone says They are going to make the world a 'better' place for me and mine.

That's MY job. I will make the world a better place for me and mine as I am the Only one capable of doing that. Passing that responsibility on to someone else is irresponsible.

I agree with uberarcanist: They are all liars. They are marketing themselves in order to win votes. They will say and do Anything to Win Votes.

They are all Desperate for Your vote.

Desperation is a very ugly thing and does not instill trust or confidence with me.

I should probably go back to the latrine now. My brand of politics has Never been very popular with the masses.

sorry I'm such a pinko,



You are NOT a pinko and I think your input here is VERY important!

I agree ........ "they 'feel' they are better equipped at leading You than You are."

Why does every topic digress to UFO Disclosure???

The topic of this thread - "Are the American people fit to govern themselves?" - is more important to explore. Jimmy Carter's UAP experience aside.

:roll:
Last edited by Shawnna on Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are the American people fit to govern themselves?

Postby Shawnna » Sun Apr 20, 2008 7:20 pm

Access Denied wrote:
“Trust, but Verify”
~ Ronald Reagan



Well......

Not wanting to ruffle too many feathers here but...... for an interesting look at the individual's integrity you are quoting, I recommend reading Lost History: Contras, Cocaine, the Press & 'Project Truth'
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Re: Are the American people fit to govern themselves?

Postby ryguy » Sun Apr 20, 2008 9:04 pm

Shawnna wrote:Not wanting to ruffle too many feathers here but...... for an interesting look at the individual's integrity you are quoting, I recommend reading Lost History: Contras, Cocaine, the Press & 'Project Truth'


OUCH....rofl...

**Ryan hands AD a towel to stem the bleeding and pats him on the back in encouragment...**

:)

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Re: Are the American people fit to govern themselves?

Postby Access Denied » Sun Apr 20, 2008 11:54 pm

Shawnna wrote:Not wanting to ruffle too many feathers here but...... for an interesting look at the individual's integrity you are quoting, I recommend reading Lost History: Contras, Cocaine, the Press & 'Project Truth'

Ouch is right, touché Shawnna, and welcome back. :)

Of course it should be noted RR was talking about the USSR.

And for the record, I don’t consider RR a particularly great president… in fact I don’t think we’ve had a truly great president since well… I don’t know when. I do however credit RR with leading the charge for “Star Wars” (SDI) which I believe effectively ended the insane stalemate that MAD was and helped lead to the fall of the "former" Soviet Union.

”Outwit, Outlast, Outplay, and Outspend!”

I agree, this is an interesting topic to explore.
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Re: Are the American people fit to govern themselves?

Postby uberarcanist » Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:31 am

Well, I wasn't aware that Star Wars had ever been deployed. Do you know otherwise, AD?
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Re: Are the American people fit to govern themselves?

Postby Access Denied » Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:01 am

uberarcanist wrote:Well, I wasn't aware that Star Wars had ever been deployed.

If you're talking about the X-ray laser DEW I’m afraid that turned out to be a little too erm... ambitious, so you're right, it wasn't.

I think what mattered most was that in our enemy’s mind we were perusing it and given enough resources there was no reason not to believe that we couldn't eventually achieve it. ;)
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Re: Are the American people fit to govern themselves?

Postby uberarcanist » Fri Apr 25, 2008 4:16 pm

Actually, Tom, I've heard that the REAL goal of Star Wars was simply to spend an exhorbitant sum of money knowing the Soviets would try to match it...and, of course, since the Soviet economy was in much worse shape than the American one, the Soviets wrecked their finances trying to keep up.
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Re: Are the American people fit to govern themselves?

Postby torbjon » Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:02 am

AD

This is one of the many reasons why I tend to avoid these types of conversations... I take a brief hiatus and come back to discover that I have now Authored a thread, which in turn was derailed, sidetracked, back peddled, flipped over, and then muddled before being lost in the works...

all I can say to that is mmph.

mmph.

So, before I blather on about the 'Libertarian' thing I wanna gloss over the 'freedom' thing.

You made this statement:

"Last I checked this is still a free country and you’re free to live entirely self sufficient (off the grid) if you want… all you owe the government is some property tax in exchange for keeping anybody you don’t want in out right?"

to wit I quipped:

"When was the last time you checked and what is your definition of "freedom"? "

and your clever response:

"1. Today.
2. Whatever flips your switch as long as it doesn’t infringe upon anyone else’s freedom."

Okay, up to the here and now...

In reply to your (off the grid) comment:

CHECK AGAIN.

I don't have a clue who you are, where you are, or how often you get out, Maybe dropping off the grid is a viable option in your corner of the world... if so Please Tell Me where you are so I can move there ASAP because dropping off the grid is Not an option in the USA, Canada or Mexico, at least, that is what the people with guns (we don't need no stinking badges) informed ME.

YES, there is still land to homestead in Alaska... like I wouldn't know that? I've Been there. I stomped around on it. It's TUNDRA. The land is incapable of supporting Any life let alone Human life. And that's the catch-22. In order to get a land grant you have to live on the land for two years. The land won't support you so you have to mule Everything in. IF you can afford to haul everything in and survive for two years then you can also afford to purchase the entire state of Hawaii... why blow your wad on worthless tundra when you can own a tropical paradise?

Ergo, there is still land to homestead in the USA.

Same goes for Mexico and Canada.

There is land available for homesteading in both of those countries (or at least there was last century when I was trying to do that) but the land won't sustain you and you have to jump through certain hoops in order to squat there or else the guys with guns come and chase you away.

The rest of the land is 'owned' by some numb nut who doesn't have clue one how to work it but Gods Forbid you should squat there and try to eek out a living because that is mine Mine MINE and YOU can't 'have' it so go away or I'll call they guys with guns.

IF you have the wealth to 'own' the land and pay for protection then you can have a few illusions of privacy and freedom, but it's spendy and they are only illusions. The option to just walk off into the sunset and make a go of it on your own ended well over a century ago in this country.

There's simply too many people on the face of this planet, the 'grid' is too big, there's no place left to go if you (I) don't want to be a part of it anymore. "Primitive" peoples in the middle of nowheresville are being (or have been) pushed off the land by 'grid makers'.

So much for the 'off the grid' thingy...

Next, Freedom.

I asked 'what is your definition of Freedom' to wit you replied:

"2. Whatever flips your switch as long as it doesn’t infringe upon anyone else’s freedom."

Honestly? I Know you are smarter than that... MUCH smarter than that... That was just a glib little fortune cookie quip to impress some noobie hippy chick, yes? (how'd that work out for you, btw?)

"As Long As It Doesn't Infringe Upon Anyone Else's Freedom" is the death of that concept and you Know it *pokes*

Just Existing is an infringement as far as many peoples are concerned. What about the bozo or bimbette who smothers themselves in toxic foul smelling chemicals? It's Legal. It's totally morally and ethically Acceptable, 'ell, it's even Encouraged! Smear this sweet smelling toxic slime all over your body and clothing and then go pack yourself into a subway car, that is Not an 'infringement'...

Lite up a Camel in same subway car to mask said Toxic Waste Foulness and you go to jail bub.

here it comes, I'll beat you to it:

"oh, but numbnut, second hand smoke is a known killer"

Yep, it sure is. And so are the synthetics used to produce alla those funky scented cleaning and grooming supplies.

here it comes again, so I'll just nip it in the bud...

"But Doofus, second hand smoke kills More people than second hand perfume"

Yep, right again...

So?

So Freeking What?

Where does the Mob, the Masses, the Majority get off on telling the Minority what they can and can't do? The ONLY thing the Mob has going for it is More People.

More People does Not equal More Correct.

More People equals More Guns equals we Can Indeed do whatever we want to you because We can Kick Your Ass if you don't like it so there.

So THAT'S the highly evolved way to run a society? *rolls eyes* Who ever has the biggest stick makes and enforces the rules... I see. How clever of us. Why, I doubt that the cavemen had anything anywhere Nearly as advanced as that, ya know?

Screw the minority, they don't matter.

The concept of "it's okay for this 100 people over here to die so that 1,000,000 people over there can live" seems to be cool these days... the old "needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" thing....

bah.

I'll tell you a little secret about Freedom. It ain't a right. It ain't a privilege. No man, no person, no group of people can Grant you your Freedom.

You were Born Free and from that moment onwards people have been Taking your freedoms away from you (and you, in turn, have been taking freedoms away from other people)

Freedom is a battle that you And Only You can fight. Soldiers can't fight it for you. Cops can't fight it for you. I can't fight it for you. You. *pokes* Yer it, bub. If you are happy with what you got and what you can do, great.

I'm still fighting.

Now then, the Libertarian thing...

No. Libertarianism is too tame by far, and entirely too short sighted and narrow minded for me...

Currently it seems to me that the political arena hasn't evolved much past the point of where it was at over 2000 years ago: A buncha bozos clanging their swords against their shields in a pathetic display of national patriotism defending a tract of land loosely defined by geological features and nebulously defined by political borders, with common linguistic heritage thrown in for good measure...

wow

Again, THAT'S a highly evolved way to run a society. Boy, aren't we clever. We should be Proud of how far we've advanced since the good ol' mud hut and pointy stick days.

We are getting ready to elect a new president here in the USA. Only citizens of the USA get to vote on who the next bozo will be...

We all have our own thoughts and feelings on that subject but there is One thing we All can and will agree on:

WHOEVER gets the dubious honor of being the next American President that person, whether they want the title or not, Will be considered a "World Leader" by the rest of the world...

What the people of America do or don't do has a direct impact on the people of the World.

But the World has no 'vote' in what we do or who the next "World Leader" is going to be...

That doesn't sound very democratic to me... sounds rather Dictatorial, actually.

Why don't people in the U.K. get to have a say? Whatever we decide to do over here WILL have an impact on that country... Same goes for every other country on the planet.

No.

All current political systems seem obsolete to me. They are 2000 year old concepts and have not evolved any since then.

MY political party would be something more like "The Radioactive Unrelenting Cloud of Unity" (or, as I prefer to call it, the TRUC U! party.)

TRUC U doesn't give a rats tail about geo/political borders, race, religion, creed, age, gender, or what horse you all rode in on. It is unbiased, non discriminating and Global. TRUC U, like radioactive fallout or a good strain of plague only recognizes One Thing:

Human Beings.

ALL Human Beings.

Until such a time as the World has a say in what the World does we will continue to be an Infant civilization... a Baby with a Poopy diaper crying for Mommy to Fix It for Us.

I don't know about the rest of you but I am DONE with poopy diapers.

There. That oughtta be enough dribble to keep things lively for a while.
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Re: Are the American people fit to govern themselves?

Postby Shawnna » Sun Apr 27, 2008 6:24 am

Bravo, torbjon!

That is probably the most articulate post I've seen anywhere in a good long while!

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Re: Are the American people fit to govern themselves?

Postby torbjon » Sun Apr 27, 2008 6:38 pm

*laughs*

well, um, Thank You, but I gotta say, I have to conclude that either you don't get out much or else yer just really really bored because I read that Now, a day later, and man oh man was I caffeinated *blush*

I can definitely edit that down to a more fortune cookie like format:

I'm Done with Penny Ante Politics.

*shrugs*

And since I'm just starting my first cup o' the day and am liking it, I'll ramble on:

The entire Global political arena seems incredibly short sighted to me. It seems to me that every system everywhere is Designed to foster an "Us versus Them" mentality, both within the individual nations And globally.

On a national level it keeps us divided (and easier to control) and on a global level... well, maybe I'm the only bozo on the planet who feels this way, but I feel the world is going to 'ell in a handbasket and that it is the Average Humans Fault NOT our political leaders.

There is simply too much historical data which indicates that when Average Humans get FED UP with something, REALLY FED UP, they pick up their pitchforks and Deal With It themselves.

Since people don't seem to be doing that now I can only conclude that they are Not as fed up as I am about the current state of affairs. *shrugs* Which is FINE. If folks are cool with their lot in life okay, cool.

But I have this sinking sensation that sometime in the not too distant future folks Will become fed up with how things are going and that by then it will be Too Late. The resources will be too far gone, or global weather will have tipped past the point of repair, or Something, ya know?

The ol' "The fish in the trap begin to think" kinda thing... sure, they are thinking now, but it's waaay too late by then... shoulda thought of that Before you swam into the trap bub.

Usually around this time someone shouts "okay wiseguy, so whadda we do? What's The Solution?"

*smiles*

I actually have one.

A Simple one.

One so simple that even my four year daughter can understand it...

One that has been Proven to work again and again and again since the dawn of time...

But nobody 'likes' it because it is 'hard' and 'dangerous'.

To my Alaska comrades I'd say "Just Do It" and that would communicate Volumes of valuable information... however I feel that most western round eyes lack the life experiences to truly understand the complete ramifications of those three little words... So I'll use a Bruce Lee quote instead, it's a little longer but should communicate to a wider class of people:

“If you want to learn to swim jump into the water. On dry land no frame of mind is ever going to help you” -Bruce Lee-


YES, You Personally may very well sink like a rock and Never been seen or heard from again *shrugs* so it goes, ey?

BUT

Most folks, 51% or more, Will Float. And that's what it's all about, right? The 'Majority'?

oh, I sooo need more coffee now...

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Re: Are the American people fit to govern themselves?

Postby Shawnna » Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:16 pm

You're right TJ - I am definitely bored and I do not get out much!

That said - I still like the way you express yourself!

8)
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