Are people fit to govern themselves?

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Re: Are the American people fit to govern themselves?

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue May 13, 2008 3:45 am

Follow up:

lost_shaman wrote:
You Can Call Me Ray wrote:2) Defining METRICS by which we can agree that, when measured, will show evidence that the contemplated law has actually achieved our stated intentions.



Impossible, again, in our current two Party system. This would require one Party to admit the other Party was right about something!


Exactly! And now review the reply I just gave to Shawnna...about evolving our 2-party system into a 3-party system. And yes, you are right, the 2 parties will not like it, will try to foil it, and try to swindle the electorate that it is not something they want. But... it really is NOT their decision to make, now is it???

WE THE PEOPLE, when we wish to change our government, have been given the vehicle to do so in our Constitution. NOWHERE in the Law does it REQUIRE a 2 party system. We are FREE to change it...and I'd say it is about time to do just that.

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Stating & Agreeing Upon INTENTION...

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue May 13, 2008 4:15 am

... BEFORE crafting laws!

As you can guess, I am passionate about this "new idea" (which is really not new...just an old idea reapplied in the world of today).

IMO, WE THE PEOPLE are the ones who should be "taking care of business" of the government. What I mean by that is not that we the people become the legislators of law. But rather WE THE PEOPLE "set the bar" or, stated otherwise, STATE THE INTENTION of what WE THE PEOPLE want to be the next, best manifestiation of our Republic.

In the future I would like to see come to pass, WE THE PEOPLE would vote upon well-formed statements of INTENTION. What we wish government to go away and make real. We would also vote on METRICS of how any laws that result to achieve the INTENTION would be measured. We tell them what we think is a reasonable result, and they, the legislators now know what they must do, and how they will be "graded" in their results and come next election time.

I know it may be difficult. But IMO as we move into the AGE OF INTENTION that I speak of, I think this is something that should come to pass...as a change in how we govern ourselves.

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Re: Stating & Agreeing Upon INTENTION...

Postby torbjon » Wed May 14, 2008 8:59 pm

I'll reply here although I feel this belongs in the other thread...

Reading your post and I'm not seeing any "change" at all. Not even a little one.

Reading the above post I still see the exact same system of "leaders and followers" that the Americans currently have.

I Know what my intentions are. You Know what your intentions are. Shawnna Knows what her intentions are. Springer Knows what his intentions are. Joe Blow Nodody knows what their intentions are.

Query:

Why do we all have to tell a Middleman what our intentions are and allow said Middlemen to act upon OUR intentions in OUR name FOR us?

This conversation started in the thread called "are the American people capable of governing themselves?", yes? First, I'd like to see the word "American" removed from that title as that wasn't my choice and that's not really what we are discussing... Are PEOPLE capable of governing themselves?

Why the overwhelming desire to Follow a Middleman? No matter how many rules, regulations, guidelines, penalties, punishments you put on said middleman in order to Force them to abide by Your intentions, they are still Middlemen.

As Middlemen they are simply one more bozo with their finger in the pie, one more bozo to misinterpret or mess up... their Sole Purpose, as 'middlemen' is simply to get in the way of Our Intentions.

I FULLY agree that having a clearly defined goal, purpose, Intention if a very clever and enlightened thing, don't get me wrong on that...

But I Strongly Feel that relinquishing control, power, authority of Your intentions to a third party simply because "you HAVE to" to be very unwise and immature.

IF groups of people with similar intentions wish to band together to fulfill those intentions, GREAT. But what about the folks that don't want to be a part of that? It used to be that if you didn't like the way things were going in your neck of the woods you really could just up and GO someplace else... sure, that option sucked big time but at least it Was an option.

Today there is No more habitable land that is not already inhabited.

There's no place left to go if you don't like the way things are where you are at.

This means that folks like me, and many other Minority peoples (be it from race, creed, color, gender, wealth, or thought processes) are effectively the Slaves of a Majority driven empire.

Not cool in my book.

But I'm a Minority. I don't count. Nobody who matters cares, and those who care don't matter.

Very unenlightened way to run a society if you ask me.

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Re: Stating & Agreeing Upon INTENTION...

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Thu May 15, 2008 3:02 am

I may be wrong in my assessment of what you are saying Torb, and let me know if I am. However, it sounds like you are calling for anarchism. The idealist anarchy really sounds great, but as we know there are always corrupt people that will ruin any attempt to realize Utopia. Whether you call them politicians or not, they are still out to take advantage of others. ;)

If you are not calling for anarchism, help me understand the difference in what you are calling for. It sounds like what you are calling for is revolutionary, whereas I am trying the evolutionary route.

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Re: Are people fit to govern themselves?

Postby Access Denied » Thu May 15, 2008 5:12 am

Ray, I hope you don't mind but I merged your new thread into this one since it didn't seem to be a fundamentally different topic from the one it started in. You do make a good point about intentions I think but didn't we (our forefathers) hash that all out over 200 years ago here in America with the signing of the Constitution?

Anyway, to answer the question posed by the title of this thread (now changed to be less specific per TJ’s request) and considering all the responses so far, I’d have to say no, I don’t think everybody is fit to govern themselves… many are, but then I think those are the people who are fit to be leaders.

[given their intention to uphold something like the following little ditty signed on July 4th, 1776 that is]

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

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Re: Are people fit to govern themselves?

Postby torbjon » Sun May 18, 2008 4:09 am

Ray,

Anarchy, no. Anarchy is "every man for himself". I am Not advocating that as that does not seem to function well in large groups.

Anti-Anarchy is more like what I'm proposing, "all for one and one for all". Unity of Intention. The current systems seem to Force division upon people. Political division, spiritual division, economic division, racial division, sexual division, and so on... very unhealthy...

Picture a living organism at odds with itself in the same way a political organism is at odds with itself... the inevitable outcome is death of the organism. ALL the parts need to work together for a "happy whole", right?

Evolution versus Revolution... evolution is a slow process that IS happening no matter What we do (or don't do). Society IS evolving right now... it WILL evolve towards a "happy whole" (or die) no matter what we do. Evolution is Passive and inevitable.

Revolution is a quicker process, usually quite shocking and violent for those caught up in it. Revolution is a more Proactive process than Evolution. I'm also getting older, am impatient, and don't mind being proactive about things I feel strongly about, so yes, I could be labeled a "revolutionary" and am calling for "revolutionary actions" in order to fulfill MY PERSONAL dream of Human Unity of Intention.

Again, I don't think it makes a wet slap one way or the other what we do or don't do... on the one hand things will change slowly and people can say "not my fault, I didn't do anything radical"

On the other hand things can change quickly and folks can say "this is Totally MY FAULT as I did something radically different from the norm."

does that make sense?

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Re: Are people fit to govern themselves?

Postby torbjon » Sun May 18, 2008 4:46 am

AD:

When those words were written they were good words and they made sense and were practical... American population base was only a few million and land base was only the Eastern seaboard...

Things have Changed since then.

Representation has Changed dramatically since then and it's never really been an accurate or "fair" representation of "the Intentions of the people"

When those words were written a bunch of folks were ticked off at some "leader" 3000 miles away making all of the rules, spending all of the taxes, providing for defense, etc...

Well, what about the West Coast of America and those pesky "freek states" of Alaska and Hawaii today? They are under the thumb of some numbnut 3000 miles away making all of the rules, spending all of the taxes, providing for their defense and basically Decreeing what is "best" for Them...

huh?

WHY?

Doesn't that seem a little Whack and Dictatorial to you?

If Texas wants to succeed from the Union and have a go at it on it's own, why can't they? Why do the people in Maine get to have a say on what the people in Texas do or don't do?

Why does everything have to be funneled through a Middle Man first? A Middle Man far removed from the actual situation at hand...

Most Americans today really sicken me.

"Look! There's a helpless human being getting their brains bashed out by a hoodlum! Let's all stand here and do nothing until the Officially Sanctioned Soldier Boy comes to deal with this problem because if WE try to deal with it on our own we might get hurt or thrown in jail or get a splinter in our little fingers!"

YES. If you do something you might get hurt, you might die, you might go to jail, you might get a paper cut... not only You but your family, your Children, your friends... being proactive is Incredibly Risky and Dangerous business, no doubts about it.

If you Don't do anything except sit around and wait for the Official Bozoboy to do it for you chances are High that the helpless human being is going to get Really Messed Up... maybe even Die...

So the question is: You or Them? Who is MORE important in the Cosmic Scheme of Things? What makes for a Healthier Whole? Self Centered "me first" or Self Sacrificing "you first"?

The current system here strikes me as dictatorial, with unfair representation, and no frontier left to expand into for nut jobs like me who just want to get the 'ell outta here.

On top of that, all of our effective implements of destruction have been taken away from us so we can no longer 'overthrow' the current regime via violence and the 'legal' tools for change are controlled by those who ARE the problem and are therefore also not a viable option...

that leaves "just do it" *sighs*

Not the greatest slogan on the face of the planet but the best I could come up with...

so much for 'break time', duty calls, I go.
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Re: Are people fit to govern themselves?

Postby Access Denied » Sun May 18, 2008 6:48 pm

Torbjon, can't say I disagree with you. Your "just do it" slogan makes even more sense now that I more fully understand your thinking behind it. It's the antithesis of Apathy… and Americans are far too apathetic these days.

You make a great a point about population and representation… how many people have ever actually met their elected officials at any level (local/county/state/federal) of government? How could they possibly know what their constituents really want or don’t want? Your average citizen probably doesn’t know what the issues they’re voting on are really about beyond what they hear in paid political advertisements on TV and how many people do you know “write your Congressman if you don't like it” and get involved in the political process? You can be damn sure $pecial Interest$ do! That’s what government has become about these days…

Not sure about the rest of the planet…

Anyway, appreciate the brain food... tasty stuff.

Off to take care of business...

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Re: Are people fit to govern themselves?

Postby torbjon » Mon May 19, 2008 7:05 am

Here's an image that just floated through my sleep deprived head...

Massive Super Government successfully controlling everything everywhere equals a totally focused, total 'Unity of Intention' single celled organism... say an amoeba. Talk about blissed out harmony and the ultimate in perfection.... pretty dull to look at though.

Compared to:

Many Micro Provincial Governments successfully working with everything everywhere equals a massive Super Organism, embracing and rejoicing in the vastness of its individual differences, no longer a dull lump of single minded unity but a chaotic collection of focused oneness... say a ballet dancer.

Now There's something to look at.
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Re: Are people fit to govern themselves?

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue May 20, 2008 2:01 am

torbjon wrote:Massive Super Government successfully controlling everything everywhere equals a totally focused, total 'Unity of Intention' single celled organism... say an amoeba. Talk about blissed out harmony and the ultimate in perfection.... pretty dull to look at though.


It's a double-edged sword, Torb, and I am sure you have thought of this:

Hitler was working towards a single, "Massive Super Government successfully controlling everything, everywhere." And indeed, there are even people who think that nothing "good" can come from a One World Government. The problem is, of course, that absolute power corrupts absolutely. You, or a group of yous, can have the best of INTENTIONS for mankind, and it only takes a few, or even one, person who wants to steal, cheat, and take advantage of others (anyone they can take advantage of) and Utopia turns to fascism.

If you've read any of my other posts here, there should be three themes that shine thru:

1) Systems Theory WORKS because it is the way of nature.
2) The most effective way to control something, anything, to achieve a goal is by CLOSING LOOPS (comparing what you want with what you've currently got).
3) The next highest loop that mankind is moving to close is the CLOSE THE LOOP OF INTENTION.

To me, these are the guiding principles. And the first one tells me that a government that is a "system of systems" is simply more robust. A government that is a single system has a single-point failure. In fact, the structure of the US government was established based on a VERY sound systems theory model. It is a 3x3 structure (fed-state-local x executive-legislative-judicial). In fact, there are many of us who know that these "sacred geometry" concepts are taught to all Masons... because not only do they work, but they reflect Nature's systemic structures.

So how do we build a government that can "close the loop of intention", while using the best aspects of Systems Theory, and at the same time make it "fascism-proof" or at least reasonably so?

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Re: Are people fit to govern themselves?

Postby torbjon » Tue May 20, 2008 6:06 am

Ray,

I feel we are on the same wave length but speaking a different language.

I was endeavoring to illustrate how a Massive Super Government is, in general, an unhealthy thing (single system = single point failure) and it seems we are in agreeance on that.

Sidebar:

"If you've read any of my other posts here..."

I've read the whole freekin' thread a few times over dude *grins* this is the ONE thread here I'm actually digging on big time, all the others seem more like work, this one is fun.

End Sidebar

Okay, I'm gonna go WAYYYYY out on a limb here and very probably make a total ass of myself so I'm begging you now to Please forgive me if I'm off the mark and to Please understand that I mean no disrespect or slander or any other bit of nastiness as I very much enjoy our conversation and respect you deeply, 'kay?

so, here I go.

I perceive you to be a bit of a brainiac. Brain the size of a planet. I imagine you as the type of dude who not only owns a slide rule, but actually knows how to use the bloody thing. I envision you as wearing a pocket protector not because they look spiffy but because you actually Need one. Chicks see you walkin' down the street and the first thing they think of is "there's a nice clean cut looking man with a solid career and a promising future" guys see you walkin' down the street and the first thing they think of is "geekazoid". When you "talk shop" 99 out of 100 folks fall asleep 'cause they Can't follow the conversation. Maybe there's some "in country" military time, Maybe there's some Boyscouts, Maybe there's a six month sabbatical or field research trip to the middle of nowhere under your belt but so far I'm not Feeling that... If I'm way off the mark or have offended again, please forgive me, because this is Not my intention, I'm actually going somewhere with this. I perceive you to be a guy with clean fingernails, a clean shirt, a clean office, a more or less steady paycheck, and you are Not working in the biological sciences...

I feel that your concept of "nature" is more theoretical than practical. I feel that your knowledge of nature is at least one step removed from the subject matter if not more so... you've read the book but haven't stepped in it, you are familiar with the procedure but haven't done it, you've seen the picture but not the real thing, etc. (again not a slam and I very well may be waaayyy off the mark here, if so a thousand apologies)

But yer a brainiac... I feel that in the realm of smarts you could totally run circles around me if you wanted to and not even break into a sweat... as such I feel you'll be able to dig the next bit:

Everybody has seen the time remapped movie of the flower blossoming and tracking the sun, right? But how many folks do you know who have actually Done That? I mean,'ell, even the freekin' Camera Man just sets up his stuff and then goes off for coffee and donuts, ya know? Well, I'm one of those numbnuts who has actually sat on a log from sun up 'till sundown and just Watched a flower do it's thing. We've all seen they guy in the movies start a fire by rubbing sticks together but how many folks have actually Done It... in the rain... with wet tender? I've spent right at 30 years of my life hip deep in "nature"... I've watched TREES grow, how whack is That? *laughs*

So, whereas I feel that you posses the intelligence, the cognitive ability, the logic and reason needed to have an understanding of "nature", I feel that I posses the practical experience (and I hate to use the word but it's the only one that I can think of) and the wisdom to have a very different understanding of "nature".

NOT saying one is 'more right' than the other, just that the two are very very different and yet equally as 'correct'...

Which brings me to your "3X3" statement.

"3X3" is indeed 'sacred geometry' and way groovy and all, but it ain't natural bub. Not from where I'm standing, and not from what I've seen. The BEST math I've seen to describe natural processes is Fibonacci sequences and Fractal geometry and both of those are Sorely Lacking when it comes to the Real Thing.

Inorganic static systems (no matter how active and vibrant that system may be) follow predetermined, cast in stone, Inorganic Rules, and therefore, as whack as the math gets, they are, ultimately, Predictable.

The same cannot be said about an Organic System. Life is Whack. It seems to simply Refuse to be quantified. You think you've calculated every single possible and impossible outcome for an organic scenario and Life finds ten trillion more for you that you Never imagined. It truly is Magic Stuff.

"3X3" (or any other inorganic sacred geometry pattern) is way way groovy, way way cool, way way helpful, totally Necessary, and makes for really Solid inorganic systems / structures / artwork / etc. But they are finite and limited and Inorganic.... which means we are living in / under a finite, limited and inorganic system doomed to (someday) fail, or, at the very very least, reach the limits of possible permeations.

Whereas an open, infinite system of say 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, etc seems to generate More solid systems / structures / artwork... Systems that have withstood the tests of time as measured in the billions of years (if not forever).

If a little dinky group of cells that make up a flower can THRIVE under such a system, why can't big strong smart enlightened Human Beings do it too?

Why Close The Loop?

Crystals close the loop.

Benzene closes the loop.

Life does Not close the loop.... and yet it Thrives. It thrives because it functions on an infinite system, an open system... an infinite open system can adapt / evolve in order to cope with Any situation... a rigidly defined system will (sooner or later) run out of options.

In closing I have a thought problem for you... and anyone else who wants to ponder it... no running to wikki or playing with google, just use your noodle. As near as I can tell no one really "knows" anyway.

Query: WHY are there any trees alive on this planet?

think about it. Trees live for hundreds if not thousands of years and perhaps even Forever if given the chance...

Yet they have predators. Predators with short life spans who Evolve into Better Predators with each successive generation. Some of the microscopic and insect predators go through Numerous life cycles each year... and some trees are Thousands of years old... Many Many Many Thousands of generations of predators attacking the same tree, rooted to the same spot, year after year after year...

Evolution states that each SUCCEEDING generation is the one that gets the evolutionary advantage but that each individual organism is stuck with the genetic package it was dealt.

That thousand year old tree is the same gene pack now as it was when it came out of the seed... but its predators have evolved and mutated many times over... into Better Predators...

There are indeed a handful of creatures that found / have found perfect environmental niches to dwell in for ages on end (trilobites, roaches, sharks, etc.) but trees ain't one of 'em. Along with perpetually evolving predators the climate or other geologic conditions has changed dramatically for some of these trees... sometimes more than once...

And yet there they are, firmly rooted to the ground, still ticking away...

WHY?

By rights they should have been eaten up Long before humans hit the scene and started messing things up, yes?

okay

beddy bye for bozoboy.

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Re: Are people fit to govern themselves?

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue May 20, 2008 3:08 pm

Hi Torb,

torbjon wrote:Okay, I'm gonna go WAYYYYY out on a limb here and very probably make a total ass of myself so I'm begging you now to Please forgive me if I'm off the mark and to Please understand that I mean no disrespect or slander or any other bit of nastiness as I very much enjoy our conversation and respect you deeply, 'kay?


No prob. I'm having fun too!

Which brings me to your "3X3" statement.

"3X3" is indeed 'sacred geometry' and way groovy and all, but it ain't natural bub. Not from where I'm standing, and not from what I've seen.


Well then we had better exterminate every human (indeed every mammal) on this earth and beyond! :shock: Because yep, our systemic structure is indeed based upon 3x3. Now, some may claim "ah, but then this might be evidence of ourselves being DESIGN rather than NATURE." But I ain't going down that wabbit hole. The point is that the human body is the most complex, yet functional thing we know of...so much so that it developed the highest level of self-contemplative (there's a loop closure) conscisousness that has permitted us to reason about ourselves and our environment. And you cannot escape the geometrical design that your human body *pokes* is a 3x3...from head to nether regions. :) Need more "evidence" for 3x3 as an inherent structure of the universe? Check this out:

Mass (+0-) = Proton Neutron Electron
Space (+0-) = X Y Z (or rho, theta, phi if you are spherically inclined!) ;)
Time (+0-) = Past Present Future

Now you could make the claim that "oh, this is just how we classify things, and humans love to classify things in 3's", and you could be right. But what if Nature herself "talked to us" to validate that space is 3 dimensions? That is precisely what Nature does with a thing called a gyroscope. Here is how the gyroscope talks to us and tells us there are 3 spatial dimensions:

1) Take a spherical mass and spin it at a constant velocity about some axis...Let's call that the "X" axis.
2) Now apply a torque to try and tilt the spin axis, essentially trying to rotate the spinning mass about another axis, we will call "Y".
3) What happens is fascinating... in response to the torque trying to rotate the mass about "Y" we actually see a motion called precession and that motion acts at right angles to both the X (spin) and Y (torqued) axis.

Right there. Nature telling us how important "threes" are via the simple law of conservation of angular momentum. But when you look deeper you see that the "real power" of 3 comes from the (active,neutral,passive) "team". Chaos is usually a struggle between opposites that is without rhyme, reason, or predictability. Stability results from chaos as a result of the 3rd, neutralizing actor. Happens all around us *points to the stars and Torb's belly button*.

The BEST math I've seen to describe natural processes is Fibonacci sequences and Fractal geometry and both of those are Sorely Lacking when it comes to the Real Thing.


Oh I agree!!! These are also part of the "sacred geometry" mix. And let's not forget Chaos Theory, which is linked to fractals in some evident (and some not-so-evident) ways. Chaos Theory also validates how the universe organizes itself around loop closures. (The loop closures create the order from the chaos).

Inorganic static systems (no matter how active and vibrant that system may be) follow predetermined, cast in stone, Inorganic Rules, and therefore, as whack as the math gets, they are, ultimately, Predictable.


Need to add a qualifier to the end of this sentence: "...down to the Planck length (or alternatively the Planck Horizon)."

The same cannot be said about an Organic System. Life is Whack. It seems to simply Refuse to be quantified. You think you've calculated every single possible and impossible outcome for an organic scenario and Life finds ten trillion more for you that you Never imagined. It truly is Magic Stuff.


Yep. That is where Chaos Theory takes over. You seem pretty well read, so I will just ask if you have looked into Chaos Theory as yet? Predictability is "there" but it comes in infinite series differential equations, which we humans don't like to deal with... so we linearize everything. In other words, we only take the first (dominant) term in this infinite series Diff Eq and say "this describes reality". Moreover, that linear approximation does NOT take into account loop closures. ;)

"3X3" (or any other inorganic sacred geometry pattern) is way way groovy, way way cool, way way helpful, totally Necessary, and makes for really Solid inorganic systems / structures / artwork / etc. But they are finite and limited and Inorganic.... which means we are living in / under a finite, limited and inorganic system doomed to (someday) fail, or, at the very very least, reach the limits of possible permeations.


Not when you comprehend what "3x3" is telling us from a systems standpoint. The "base magic" is 3 (meaning: active pole, passive pole, neutraling factor). This "base magic" even shows up in the closed loop structure because you have "command" dukeing it out with "feedback" (alternate poles), and the summing junction (which forms the difference between command & feedback) creates an "error" signal which is the composite (balance) of the two extremes. So what "3x3" says then is "take the magic and permutate it" or in a more Biblical sense "go forth and multiply!" :) So when you claim "3x3" is static, or closed, then I would ask if you have considered:

3x3x3? (in fact, this speaks to a whole larger subject on higher dimensions...and is even hinted at in the sacred geometry interpretations of Genesis 1).

Whereas an open, infinite system of say 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, etc seems to generate More solid systems / structures / artwork... Systems that have withstood the tests of time as measured in the billions of years (if not forever).


Oh by all means! In phact, phibonacci brings up another phavorite scared geo concept of mine: PHI! In phact PHI is the perfect guide for HOW you "go forth and multiply". It gives major clues into how you integrate systems. So yes, indeed, we are talking the same language. And I did not mean that "3x3" is the do-all and end-all. But it IS an important organizing principle in Nature...and as such should not be thrown-away, but propagated to higher levels.

Why Close The Loop?


Because closing the loop is what allows you to reach your intention. CLosing the loop allows you to converge to a solution (that meets intention). CLosing the loop permits you to say "I want A" and then examining feedback we may see "you've currently got B", and then by closing the loop (gap) between them we can make informed decisions about how to get from B to A!

Life does Not close the loop.... and yet it Thrives. It thrives because it functions on an infinite system, an open system... an infinite open system can adapt / evolve in order to cope with Any situation... a rigidly defined system will (sooner or later) run out of options.


Oh but life DOES close the loop...in many different ways! Your body would be a jiggling jar of jelly if it didn't have loop-closures "built in" to your design. Loops are closed in macroscopic senses too...the food chain is really more like a food cycle. I could go on and on (and create another living cycle!) :)

Query: WHY are there any trees alive on this planet?

think about it. Trees live for hundreds if not thousands of years and perhaps even Forever if given the chance...


How could I have asked for you to pick a better example than the humble TREE? WHile yes, indeed, the tree is "programmed" to grow in accordance with the Fibo sequence, its systemic function is as part of a loop-closure (an interdependence) in the carbon cycle. The tree's branches penetrate the firmament to gather CO2 and sunlight. The tree's roots penetrate terra firma to gather water and nutrients. And right there in the middle is the trunk...The defaco interface between firmament and terra firma!

Indeed, I think we are talking the same subject...and I like where this collaboration is going. I'm with ya on your inputs, Torb, and I hope you can get a little closer to what I am saying with this reply.

And oh BTW, I can tell you are quite the Brainiac yerself! *pokes* So don't go thinking that by flattering me you can get a leg up on me! :lol:

keep it coming, man!
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Re: Are people fit to govern themselves?

Postby torbjon » Wed May 21, 2008 1:18 am

like I said, brainiac can run circles around me without even breaking into a sweat...

Look, I just GLANCED at the above, It's gonna take me a while to digest this and do you justice

But I can tell right off the bat we're gonna bump heads Hard on a basic building block of how we function...

linear vs non linear / east vs west kinda stuff...

I need to digest and ponder...

catch you on the flip side.

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Re: Are people fit to govern themselves?

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Wed May 21, 2008 4:28 am

No problem, Torb. I'm not going anywhere and good things come to those who wait! :)

And as for bumping heads, I have no problem in disagreeing with someone as long as I learn something. You've got a unique take on things. And then there is the nature of tension between opposites that sets up a dynamic for change. Ya never know what can happen when heads bump, as long as the heads remain cool. 8)

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Re: Are people fit to govern themselves?

Postby torbjon » Wed May 21, 2008 9:51 pm

Dancing Dualities...

okay, we Are kinda getting off onto "what is reality" and I do kinda want to stay more on "politics"...

I just want to babel a bit as I truly am brain dead now, bear with me on this...

"Nature" is all inclusive, it's everything, organic, inorganic, falling apples, etc. The "nature" I'm focusing on for a political / societal system is strictly the Organic parts, which is a subset of the 'bigger picture'.

Sure, the rules of the 'bigger picture' play a part in the subset, but the subset has it's Own special rules which do not necessarily play a part in the 'bigger picture', right?

Just because certain types of math work on the bigger picture doesn't mean that math will work on the subset and vice versa.

I'm still not seeing any need for a 'closed system' and I'm not sure you are either, if I'm reading you correctly...

Like, this line:

"Predictability is "there" but it comes in infinite series differential equations, which we humans don't like to deal with... so we linearize everything."

That's it in a nutshell...

Anytime we 'close the loop' we limit not only the individual, (something I wish to avoid) but also put a limit on the possible outcomes of the system... An infinite system doesn't do this...

The infinite system can be composed of a series of closed loop systems, but the overall system is limitless and unbounded...

Funny you should mention Pi... I actually wrote some on that then deleted it before posting as it seemed too glib and cheeky, but it is probably THE MOST classic example of a bounded / unbounded, finite / infinite, open / closed system there is...

It just 'feels' to me like you're advocating a political / societal system with limits... things like, fascism bad, racism bad, slavery bad, etc. ergo devise a system which puts a limit on those 'bad' things...

I'm saying No to that. If we do that, close the system and put limits on things, then No, people are Not fit to govern themselves, they simply Can't under those conditions. They system has to be open and unbounded. In the past this has worked because there have always been frontiers for malcontents to expand into and form their own societies... today some other form of expansion is required...

Whereas you and I may very well agree that "racism is bad" that doesn't mean everybody everywhere at everytime feels that way. Devising a system which limits what Some individuals (even if it IS the majority) deem as 'bad' puts limits on Other individuals (even if it's only One person) and therefore the Potentials of that individual (for 'good' or 'bad', and really, those are concepts I'll have no truck with) can never be realized...

I was hoping you'd ponder the tree thing a little more and in a different light as I perceive it to be a good example of the type of system I'd like to see happen and feel Will happen regardless of what we do barring wipe ourselves out.

Most folks see a tree as an individual unit... from roots to tree top, it's a Tree. One Tree.

My observations have led me to believe that a tree is really a Society. Some bits (branches, roots, bark, leaves, etc) are Fascist, some are Democratic, some are Dictatorial, some are Crazy, some are Sane, some Slavers, some are Free Lovers, some are This, some are That, and so on and so on and so on... Nothing is really limited... the society which makes up the tree practices Everything from ultra conservative to ultra liberal and everything both in between and beyond those two 'limits'.

This is how the tree survives each successive wave of ever evolving predators...

This year the swarm of predators descends upon the tree and just totally devastate the 'liberal' section of that society... next life cycle of predators comes along but the 'liberal' sections of the society have been so decimated that the predators can't survive, evolution kicks in and the Next life cycle of predators now attack the 'fascist' section of the tree society and totally devastate That section of the society... next life cycle of predators comes along, same thing, not enough 'fascists' to support them so evolution kicks in. Also at this time the 'liberal' society is starting to make a comeback... but the next batch of predators are now targeting 'slavers', 'liberals' are growing strong again, 'fascists' start to make a comeback, and so on and so on and so on... forever.

The society that is the 'the tree' survives because of it's all embracing infinite non closed diversity of societal structure.

I've watched plants do what by all rights should be deemed "crazy"... I've watched plants expend incredible amounts of energy to send branches into shady spots that NEVER get sunshine when it would be so much "wiser" to spend that energy on branches that get sunlight...

But then some years down the road here comes a swarm of predators, or a natural disaster, or Something that wipes out whatever was causing the shade and now that tree that was doing the 'crazy stupid dangerous' thing now has an advantage over those that Didn't do the 'crazy' thing... Now that tree is perceived as not being 'stupid' but 'clever', it had 'foresight', it had 'wisdom', it was one smart cookie...

It's so easy to say 'pollution bad', 'slavery bad' 'racism bad' etc... and Yes, in the here and now those things may very well seem really Crazy, a total waste of energy and potential... just like the tree sending a branch into the shade...

No, the system needs to be Open... the Sub Systems need to be closed with focused intentions (build a bridge, educate doctors, develop space faring technologies, etc.) but the overall System needs to be Open, all inclusive, with infinite expansion...

"Expansion" on a political / societal level is purely conceptual, not physical...

If we conquer space and find physical room for human expansion we can remain in our barbaric state of awareness forever, I think, but I don't see that happening soon enough...

On a closing note that has little to do with politics, I gather you are a linear time person, yes? Past to Present to Future, right? *sighs*

I don't perceive it that way... In fact a very large group of people I used to hang out with don't perceive it that way either... many of the 'primitive' peoples I've hung out with are of the opinion that time is circular in nature, not linear. They (and I) feel that tomorrows actions can affect yesterdays events... but that's another subject.

I gotta go, sorry so disjointed.
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