McCain v Obama

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McCain v Obama

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:48 pm

[Mod Edit: the following is in response to this thread]

MikeJamieson wrote:Especially in this extraordinary year, where if
present trending continues through election day, Barack Obama
will become our 44th President of the United States!)


God help us. Sorry, Mike. But the gloves are coming off. I know you are all for Obama, but his energy policy (or lack thereof) seems ready to further erode our lifestyle, while China pollutes, continues its industrial and militarization march, and our economy goes down the tubes.

Look at what Pelosi hath wrought in just under 2 years!?!?! The speculation in energy markets is happening for a reason. That reason is because all the DEMS are lining up behind Gore, and they KNOW that his policies (which Obama has/will adopt as political payback) will do nothing but drive energy costs higher. Furthermore, Obama ahs made his intentions clear on capital gains. If you think the markets are not planning to build and then take their gains right up to the day Obama MIGHT be declared the winner, then you are not keeping a close eye on what is going on. If Obama takes office, why would people keep their $ in the stock market if they KNOW he is going to tax them on their gains? There will be a mass movement out of stocks and into other vehicles...most likely OUTSIDE the USA.

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Re: Exopolitical News.

Postby MikeJamieson » Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:14 pm

Hi Ray! I just happened to have Obama's summary of his energy policy in my backpack here, and thought
I would share one small part of that pdf here since it somewhat, loosely, relates to Greer's (spurious, in my
opinion) efforts:

Clean Technologies Deployment Venture Capital Fund: Barack Obama
will create a Clean Technologies Deployment Venture Capital Fund to fill a critical
gap in U.S technology development. This Fund will partner with existing investment
funds and our National Laboratories to ensure that promising technologies move
beyond the lab and are commercialized in the U.S. The risks and associated costs
of commercializing a new energy technology often prevent critically important
technologies from ever seeing the light of day. The gap between the lab and the
marketplace is sometimes referred to as the "Valley of Death", because many
technologies enter but few ever make it out the other side because of the
prohibitive costs of building the first commercial-scale facility that processes
that energy source. Currently, U.S. venture capital funding is doing an effective
job promoting research and development stage, but far too often, technologies
invented here in the U.S. such as wind turbines, solar panels, and compact
fluorescent bulbs are commercialized overseas and then sold back to American
consumers.

The Clean Technologies Deployment Venture Capital Fund will be modeled on the
highly successful CIA In-Q-Tel program. In-Q-Tel is a non-profit, independently-
managed venture capital fund led by seasoned venture capital professionals to
developnew intelligence technologies for the CIA. The first five years of In-Q-Tel
funding led to 22 new technologies being used in 40 government programs.

Couple with an Obama Administration's increased investment in renewable energy
research and development, this Fund's efforts to quickly deploy new new technologies
like cellulosic ethanol, carbon capture and sequestration, and other clean technologies
like bio-based plastics will help ensure that the American economy and environment
benefit from clean technologies in the next five years, as opposed to the next several
decades. Obama will invest $10 billion in this fund for five years, and reinvest profits
back into the fund.


http://forestwanderernotes.blogspot.com
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Move to Politics Forum?

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:57 pm

Hi Mike,

We may wish to carry this over to the Politics section given where it is going. However, let me say that I know you are the kind of person that can have a good, spirited political discussion (with disagreements) and not take it all personally.


MikeJamieson wrote:Hi Ray! I just happened to have Obama's summary of his energy policy in my backpack here, and thought I would share one small part of that pdf here since it somewhat, loosely, relates to Greer's (spurious, in my opinion) efforts:


Thanks for sharing. It does sound good. But I would ask why has the junior Senator not proposed or sponsored such bills and legislation such as this in the Senate? But the biggest concern I have for what Obama is saying right now about our energy problems tends to completely ignore the ECON 101 rules of supply and demand. It is a well borne-out fact that when you increase supply to a commodity market, the prices come down. In fact, in complete contrast to what Obama said regarding "opening up drilling will not have an effect on prices for over 5 years", what he says is NOT borne-out by how markets work. ALL commodity markets are driven by speculation about the future. Indeed, many have said we have moved from a real estate bubble and now are sitting on an energy (more specifically, oil) bubble. Many things could cause the speculators to begin to deflate that bubble, and certainly one of them would be even the beginnings of increased oil drilling by the US, thus ensuring that the market will soon see more supply.

I just see too much of Obama buying into the whole Al Gore thing, and it is apparant to me that Gore's rock star days are starting to dry up. Especially since he not only is a total energy hog himself, but his energy usage continues to rise, not go down. The worst person you want attached to a political campaign is a hypocrit.

Currently, U.S. venture capital funding is doing an effective
job promoting research and development stage, but far too often, technologies
invented here in the U.S. such as wind turbines, solar panels, and compact
fluorescent bulbs are commercialized overseas and then sold back to American
consumers.


There is a very good reason why this is done. There is great risk in commercializing ANY product. The whole idea of a (small) "test market" is intended to build the commercial product in a smaller domain, where you can recover from screw-ups and errors fairly easily. This serves to burn-down risk by solving the problems before your market base becomes huge. Having lived in New Zealand for awhile I came to learn that MANY products are first commercialized there as a test market before they are brought to the US. Once they hit the US market the products, and their delivery/support system are MUCH more optimized than if they would have developed them here from scratch. By forcing commercialization to take place within the vast USA market, you are also forcing those who develop the product to swallow ALL those risks which could be burnt-off before "going live" as they say in the database world.

The Clean Technologies Deployment Venture Capital Fund will be modeled on the
highly successful CIA In-Q-Tel program. In-Q-Tel is a non-profit, independently-
managed venture capital fund led by seasoned venture capital professionals to
developnew intelligence technologies for the CIA. The first five years of In-Q-Tel
funding led to 22 new technologies being used in 40 government programs.


If we could only get DETAILS of these from the CIA (which are scarce, if available at all) we could validate such claims. But what is the difference between Venture Capital (a private market term) and what the FED already does with organizations like NASA? Essentially, NASA *is* supposed to be a "VC-like" incubator for US aviation and space development. But look at what such FED agencies become...bloated bureacracies which are VERY good at spending money, but terribly slow at producing a product, or getting it to a "commercialized" state. It is just the nature of FED bureacracy. To think anyone can change it...even a president... well, talk to the guys who have tried to change NASA to make them more efficient.

Couple with an Obama Administration's increased investment in renewable energy
research and development, this Fund's efforts to quickly deploy new new technologies
like cellulosic ethanol, carbon capture and sequestration, and other clean technologies
like bio-based plastics will help ensure that the American economy and environment
benefit from clean technologies in the next five years, as opposed to the next several
decades. Obama will invest $10 billion in this fund for five years, and reinvest profits
back into the fund.


Again, sounds great. But don't you see the contradiction? This investment takes time to sprout and grow. So the exact same argument Obama uses to avoid opening up drilling (it will take at least 5 years) plagues this approach. He says he wants to tax big oil. Do you have ANY reason to believe those taxes will not be passed on to you at the pump, thus making the plight of average Americans worse? He also says he wants to regulate commodity markets to "prevent speculation." Sorry. You cannot regulate speculation. People do it all the time and will continue to do it. But even if you could, that is NOT going to make prices go down in the near term. Heck, it would take at least a year to forumulate such a bill, get it into law, and then start enforcing it.

I have not heard anything from Obama with regard to energy TACTICS (not strategy, which is the long-term planning element) that will address the real bottom line right now... price at the pumps.

Rebuttal?
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Re: Exopolitical News.

Postby MikeJamieson » Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:33 am

Okay, I'll open up a McCain v Obama thread at the Politics place.

I haven't been to McCain's issue pages yet, but plan to. I know some
of his proposals from paying close attention. I am sure both
candidates go into a lot of detail! (Obama does).
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McCain v Obama

Postby MikeJamieson » Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:42 am

One place where we can see the status of this race:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com

At the moment, Obama's electoral vote edge is pretty good. He's in good
shape (at this moment anyway) to capture previously Republican states,
including my own of Nevada.

Will be back in a minute with the urls for the issue pages from McCain's
and Obama's websites.
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Re: McCain v Obama

Postby MikeJamieson » Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:50 am

John McCain's issue page:
http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues/

Barack Obama's issue page:
http://www.barackobama.com/issues/

Let the games begin!!!!
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Re: McCain v Obama

Postby MikeJamieson » Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:05 am

Real Clear Politics poll average:
Obama: 48.3
McCain: 40.8

Electoral Vote (with toss up states not factored in, despite slight edges here and there):
Obama: 238
McCain: 163
Toss Up: 137

With no Toss Ups:
Obama: 317
McCain: 221
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Re: McCain v Obama

Postby Chorlton » Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:19 pm

Slight detour, but do you really think, if Obama gets in, he will be there that long?
I suspect there are some ''good ol boys' somewhere over there already checking their sights and reloading some decent ammo
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Re: McCain v Obama

Postby ryguy » Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:39 pm

Chorlton wrote:Slight detour, but do you really think, if Obama gets in, he will be there that long?
I suspect there are some ''good ol boys' somewhere over there already checking their sights and reloading some decent ammo


haha! I agree...like the lobbiest's hitmen, the drug company hitmen, the oil company hitmen.....

I will be likely be doing my part to help the Obama campaign through volunteer writing and local campaigning. He's the one chance our country has to change direction from the current downward slope of poor foreign policy, poor domestic policy, poor energy policy, poor financial policy...etc...etc...etc....

I'm a moderate republican, but the republicans have failed miserably on so many fronts that I'm willing to vote for the other party just to get some balance back. Of course it'll take our country decades to recover from the damage that's been done over the past eight years.

-Ry
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Re: McCain v Obama

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:41 pm

Chorlton wrote:Slight detour, but do you really think, if Obama gets in, he will be there that long?
I suspect there are some ''good ol boys' somewhere over there already checking their sights and reloading some decent ammo


And what if he selects Hillary as his Veep? We are all aware (I hope) of the trail of dead bodies behind the Clintons (Vince Foster was ONLY one)... would that be Hillary's plan to get the reigns of power?

Jus sayin'
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Re: McCain v Obama

Postby ryguy » Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:48 pm

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:And what if he selects Hillary as his Veep? We are all aware (I hope) of the trail of dead bodies behind the Clintons (Vince Foster was ONLY one)... would that be Hillary's plan to get the reigns of power?


If he's stupid enough to do that....my man is McCain. ;)

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Re: McCain v Obama

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Wed Jun 25, 2008 3:19 pm

ryguy wrote:
You Can Call Me Ray wrote:And what if he selects Hillary as his Veep? We are all aware (I hope) of the trail of dead bodies behind the Clintons (Vince Foster was ONLY one)... would that be Hillary's plan to get the reigns of power?


If he's stupid enough to do that....my man is McCain. ;)


For the record, I do NOT hate Obama (but I do hate Billary). And I do not deny that he MAY put together a foreign policy team that could heal some wounds. But right now where I am questioning his speeches and promises is with respect to the economy. Not only do I NOT see much "change" in this part, I see blatant ignorance of supply & demand and, what is worse, I see him adopting the Party Line on the rabid environmental movement. What I have been pointing out in the Global Warming politics thread is that there is a dovetail happening here. It is bogus science, they go out of their way to IGNORE the sun's contribution to weather (the largest influence of ANYTHING!), and Obama seems to be falling in line with the Party Power Elite.

Tax "big oil"? Yet he does not even address the fact that the most likely scenario is that big oil will pass that tax on to us at the pump. So how does taxing big oil help relieve the price of gas again? Oh, it won't! But it WILL fill the government coffers with a bit more of OUR money.

I see a junior Senator who seems to exhibit no knowledge and understanding of market-based economics. But then again, the DEM Party's solution to everything has always been "tax and spend".

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Re: McCain v Obama

Postby Shawnna » Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:32 pm

ryguy wrote:
You Can Call Me Ray wrote:And what if he selects Hillary as his Veep? We are all aware (I hope) of the trail of dead bodies behind the Clintons (Vince Foster was ONLY one)... would that be Hillary's plan to get the reigns of power?


If he's stupid enough to do that....my man is McCain. ;)

-Ry



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THAT is what the Republicans hope you will do my friend.
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hey! Barack heard me and Ray talking.

Postby MikeJamieson » Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:51 pm

The Obama website now has a page comparing McCain and Obama on energy policy:
http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/newenergy/

VP speculation: Probably Evan Bayh, maybe Kathleen Sebelius (my personal choice, but
I like Evan too).

When Patti Solis Doyle took over as chief of staff for VP vetting, that was a signal
it won't be Hillary Clinton.

Two new polls mirror the recent Newsweek poll, showing significant DOUBLE DIGIT
lead over McCain.
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Re: hey! Barack heard me and Ray talking.

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:02 am

MikeJamieson wrote:The Obama website now has a page comparing McCain and Obama on energy policy:
http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/newenergy/



Unfortunately, this is tired, old "politics-as-usual" that has been practiced by BOTH parties for many years. All of Obama's "solutions" tell you the "happy" side of the story (or the part they would like you to BELIEVE is happy), but they cleverly omit the "downside" to each and every one. This is not "change" but more of the same old, same old. Let's not forget that the same "DEM brains" that run the party pump out the smooth, political propaganda. Here, let me show you. Just for fun, I will go in reverse order of his "solutions:

Windfall Profits Tax
Supports implementing a well-designed windfall profits tax on profits made over $80 per barrel to help families pay energy bills


The part Obama's Machine is not telling you: (1) The specifics of "well-defined. (2) That they cannot legislate away the ability for oil companies to pass that tax on at the pump. It will not help families pay energy bills because it will drive prices up. That feeds inflation, which is not what this economy needs right now. Ask the FED.

Energy Efficiency
Plan will reduce the energy intensity of our economy 50% by 2030, through improvements in building efficiency, smart grid, and giving utilities an incentive to invest in efficiency rather than new production.


The part Obama's Machine is not telling you: All of this will cost money (again, the consumer will pay for it), and for Obama to deride that new oil drilling "will take 5 years to impact oil prices", this will take MUCH longer. A good long term goal, but it does nothing in the near term except (again) fuel inflation.

Fuel Economy v Offshore Drilling
Supports doubling the fuel efficiency of autos within 18 years, saving American consumers from purchasing a half trillion gallons of gas.


The part Obama's Machine is not telling you: Once again, they do not want to tell you that the price of these autos will go up. And more than $1-2K for most vehicles. Again the long timeline, so by his own criticism of offshore drilling, it does nothing for consumers now, or who will not buy new cars for years! Same inflation pressure. (Seeing the recurring theme? Not telling you the COST of each proposal!)

Ending Excessive Speculation in Oil Markets
Supports fully closing the Enron Loophole and eliminating offshore loopholes that encourage excessive speculation. Obama's Plan will ease the impact of rising prices.

Sen. Phil Gramm – one of Senator McCain’s chief economic advisors – was responsible for sneaking the Enron Loophole into law.


The part Obama's Machine is not telling you: (1) McCain also supports closing the same loophole. (Want you to think their positions are different, but they are not). (2) He cannot show how it will ease prices, and he will not tell you what should be obvious: A US president cannot control speculators that are not subject to US laws.

The Next 10 Years of Oil
3 million barrels of oil savings. The plan will reduce U.S. oil consumption by about 3 million barrels of oil per day by 2018.
Not a drop more. McCain's plan to open up our coastlines to drilling would not bring meaningful new production on-line for ten years.


The part Obama's Machine is not telling you: (1) That savings requires a $150Billion investment...again, someone is going to pay for it... and more inflation pressure. (2) It is amazing how bold Obama people are to criticize McCain's plan will take ten years in the exact same issue where they admit the 3 million barrel savings will not hit until 2018. By my math, that is exactly ten years from now!!! WTF??? He just nullified his own point (and showed some hypocrisy at the same time!) This does not instill trust in my mind, but rather reinforces he is just as much a lying, deceitful sack of sh** as any other politician!! (or at least the staffers who prepared this are!)

Making America’s Economy Vibrant and Competitive in the Long Haul
Supports an Apollo-scale investment of $150 billion over 10 years to jumpstart renewable energy technology development and deployment.


The part Obama's Machine is not telling you: There is that $150Billion I just mentioned. Where is that coming from? Likely raiding NASA (among others) and essentially shutting down the US manned space program. What will motivate kids to study science and engineering then? Your taxes will go up at a time where we are worried about inflation.... indeed, NONE of his "solutions" bother mentioning their potential impact on inflation. Why is that? Could it be they don't want to admit this could end up like interest rates during the Carter administration?

Green Collar Jobs
Comprehensive plan for renewables, fuel economy and energy efficiency will help create as many as 5 million new green jobs.


The part Obama's Machine is not telling you: Uhhh. Those jobs are already being created RIGHT NOW by market forces. The rise in oil prices make more entrepreneurs jump in to provide energy solutions. Since I installed my solar PV system in 2003, I have watched the solar PV industry grow. And it is still growing. He could do NOTHING as president and there will be jobs added in this sector. You can take that to the bank (which was why I invested in diversified energy mutual funds back in 2004!)

Providing Immediate Financial Relief for Families This Summer
Supports a second round of rebate checks to help families offset the cost of $4.00 gas this summer.
Worth: $300 per family


The part Obama's Machine is not telling you: Those rebate checks (like the first ones) will not help ALL DRIVERS. It discriminates against single people (like me) who are only ELIGIBLE for half of what a couple could get. And just like the first stimulus, there is a PHASE OUT for people making over $70K. Drivers here in California who make over $100K (which is NOT THAT MUCH when you take into account our mortgage payments for a meager house) will see NO RELIEF. And just how much "relief" is $300? I am driving to Colorado early tomorrow morning to work on the development of my retirement property. The gas cost alone for driving ONE WAY is well over $300. Oh, but I am single, so I will not get $300. And I am "wealthy" (ha) so I will not get anything! Meanwhile, I am spending money to develop property when the construction industry is in a downturn (doing my part to stimulate the economy) and yet I get punished for doing that because I do not qualify for a "stimulus rebate".

Again, do not get the idea I am ONLY singling out Obama. This is just the same old "half story" rhetoric that politicians tell you all the time when they are trying to get elected. Politicians NEVER like to tell you the bad news that goes with the good (if it is even good!). By these statements of his energy policay, Obama is NOT change, he is nothing new. It is the same old same old. And it infuriates me even more that he tries to pass himself off as something new. He is toting the party line...

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