McCain v Obama

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Re: McCain v Obama

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:05 am

No matter what happens tonight, I would like to suggest that we turn this thread into a manifesto for "campaign promises broken" as we go forward. Because no matter which Party wonk idiot wins the big jawb, if there is one thing that is easy to predict about the future it is that they will break several significant campaign promises.

I am still looking forward to the year when we tire of the Repblicrat BS and flip both parties the bird. [-X (that's the closest emoticon I could see to the bird!)
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Re: McCain v Obama

Postby Zep Tepi » Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:09 am

Sounds like a good idea to me. Methinks there will be quite a few more pages added to this thread though... ;)

Any predictions?
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Re: McCain v Obama

Postby Access Denied » Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:08 am

Sound likes a plan to me too Ray… hopefully you won’t be as busy as Steve predicts. :P

Is four years of smooth sailing too much to ask? Never mind, don’t answer that. :)

From page 2 of this thread…

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:No problem. And allow me to continue Obamawatch '08! :D

On to “Obamawatch” period!

I’m just glad it was all over by 8 PM my time… I thought it might be a landslide but part of me wasn’t sure. You know how us skeptics are. ;)

As I’m writing this (12 AM) Obama is ahead by some 5,000,000 in the popular vote so it looks like we won’t have to endure a nationwide recount and mass rioting. :D

Great victory speech too… =D>
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Re: McCain v Obama

Postby Zep Tepi » Wed Nov 05, 2008 1:17 pm

I agree, I've just heard the speech in full and it certainly hit all of the right spots. Now let's hope he can put those words into action.
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Re: McCain v Obama

Postby ryguy » Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:14 pm

One thing that struck me during his speech (it really was amazing, wasn't it?) is an overwhelming sense of uniting the country. Not in political terms...as Ray has pointed out well in this thread, I don't think that's really possible, considering how politics works. But if you consider the fact that Obama truly won the election, not so much on the "black vote" (I read this morning that blacks did not turn out in any significantly greater numbers than any other election) - but he won it because he appealed to communities that are very mixed racially. He overwhelmingly won in those communities - and many of those were formerly Republican strongholds.

The fact that he won there means that he stood for the kind of change that both white and black America hopes for - a diverse America that embraces a person based truly on the worth of their character and not the color of their skin. All politics aside - that is honestly an amazing moment for both black communities and white communities in this country. White communities have stood up and voted alongside black communities and they did so, in part, to show that we believe that children of every race, black or white, who choose to get up and make something of themselves...who choose to get active in their communities, and go to school even if they grew up in a community where the majority of children never go to college....we, as a nation, have made a united statement that if you choose to make a difference in your own life and the lives of others - then we will also believe in you too...regardless of the color of your skin. That's a big part of what last night represents to me...

I asked my 8 year old daughter what she thought of the speech (she'd stayed up late and snuck the TV on without my knowing just to watch the speech...lol) and she actually quoted part of his speech word for word. I felt very proud to watch my two little girls get so excited about our next president and the whole democratic process...

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Re: McCain v Obama

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:04 pm

I see the stock market is really excited about Obama's win today!! :lol:

The time for words is over. Let's see what he accomplishes in his first 100 days.

My predictions? Well, I already gave you one: Tax break promises will be the first to go. And indeed, Obama's surrogates have already been socializing that very fact in talking-down the cutoff number that "defines wealthy."

My other prediction was referred to many pages back. For sake of clarity: Pelosi and Reid will really be in control. They will begin shotgunning bills through their newly-reinforced Dem-controlled Congress. There will be no need for Obama to reach across the aisle, because Pelosi and Reid will keep the Repub voices stifled. All Obama will have to do is sign the bills they bring to him. And if you think he is going to veto things coming from his more-experienced Congressional mentors... then I have some waterfront property in Arizona to sell you.

Specifically, you will, no doubt, see many "Global Warming" packages come up for vote and be sent on to Prez Obama...all to make sure Al Gore gets his next award, and the US economy is further suppressed in accordance with the wishes of the greater Euro bourgeoisie (and I do NOT include our UK allies in this group).

You heard it here first...
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Re: McCain v Obama

Postby ryguy » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:07 pm

Ray, I agree. I'm hoping against hope that Obama's administration takes a good, hard look at what "power politics" did to the Republicans. I believe Obama is intelligent enough to recognize that taking advantage of power will lead him down the same path as Bush, and it will turn the country against him and the Democrats. I am hoping that he's intelligent enough to remain in the middle, and to greet moderate Republicans and moderate Democrats with open arms - and generate some powerful changes. That's the hope, and I do think he's smart enough to recognize that if he makes the same mistakes as Bush and the right-wing conservative base, he'll end up out in 4 years. In fact I'll be the first to encourage people to vote against him.

He better get the mandate that the people of this country have set in the overwhelming way that they've voted. It'll be a fascinating few months moving forward. Either way it's going to be a difficult period for the country and the world in order to recover from the damage inflicted both domestically and internationally by the last eight years of the Bush regime.

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Re: McCain v Obama

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:49 pm

ryguy wrote: Either way it's going to be a difficult period for the country and the world in order to recover from the damage inflicted both domestically and internationally by the last eight years of the Bush regime.


(big sigh). I hear you saying that you "get it", Ryan, but I really don't think you do (at least not from your rhetoric). Bush was not a dictator, and he didn't do all those "bad things" without help, and that includes help from the Dems. I have always pointed out that I can always find things about any president that I like, and things I don't like. That includes Bush, and I am hopeful I will find things about Obama that I like as well. But one guy does not evil (or a savior) make in our system. Obama has a Dem machine behind him, just like Bush had a Repub machine behind him. And are you so insenced at Bush (or just embarassed because YOU voted for him too) that you cannot acknowledge even the few things he did right? Was he a "bumbling idiot" when we were going thru 9/11? Was he "screwing up" when he and his admin worked to cut taxes and keep our economy going after 9/11? Was it "wrong" to go into Afghanistan and clean up that mess that Clinton allowed to fester? And yes... let's even talk Iraq! I am sure revisionists really enjoy saying how "the mess in Iraq is all Bush's fault, because he lied to take us into a war for oil....blah blah blah." But you know what? I don't believe it is us, the American people, who are really in the best position to determine if going into Iraq was "the right thing to do". Perhaps the Iraqi people are in a better position to answer that? After watching several documentaries on the absolutely gruesome acts of that TRUE dictator Saddam Huessin and his waste-of-space sons, I am pretty sure that the vast majority of Iraqis (esp. Shias, who the propaganda says "hate us") are quite relieved to have that long phase of oppression and murder over and done with. Do you hate Bush so much (or is it just your embarassement disguised as hate for him?) that you cannot acknowledge the price that US soliders have paid to rid the Iraqi people of a terrible, nightmarish TRUE dictator?

And let's not forget that this economic mess was also not ALL of Bush's doings. Have you really taken the time to look at the Community Reinvestment Act, and how it was changed under Clinton to force risky lending practices (otherwise banks would have to pay big penalties)? Have you looked at the economic FACTS that clearly show that after Clinton's "beefing up" of the CRA that this is the time when home prices stopped tracking inflation? And then there is Barney Frank and Christopher Dodd who blatantly refused additional regulation of Fannie and Freddie! PLEASE try to be a bit more unbiased that you are currently exhibiting, Ryan.

The problems are NOT about singular people.... the problems stem from two gigantic political machines, each one always hell bent on "getting revenge" when they get power back from the other. The Republicans wasted their own "mandate" from the late 90s and early 2000s on doing stupid things. I predict that because the pendulum has swung so far back to the left, that the Dems will over-assess their power, and you will see Pelosi stifling the Republicans....the exact same thing she and her cronies complained about during Republican rule.

You are a controls engineer, Ryan. Apply some of that knowledge to the oscillations between two opposing states that is our political system. Is it REALLY healthy for the overall system performance when it breaks out into such wild, back and forth swings? To continue the analogy, the root locus plot of our political system seems to have dualing sets of oscillatory poles in the LHP and RHP, and there appear to be absolutely NO zeros on the complex plane to help temper the oscillatory responses induced by these poles. As a controls engineer, would you EVER stand for a root-locus that looked like that and call it a "healthy system"??? Because that is exactly what I see in our effed-up political system... and no single person, whether you deem them "bad" or "good" is ever going to change that.

You only think we got change. Because the Dem machine will be in control of Congress, and will "mentor" Obama in his job, we've got the same old BS. Once the honeymoon wears off, I am sure it will be clear... I just want them to keep their stinking, greedy, power-hungry hands out of my pockets! We won't get REAL change until we break the Dem/Repub backbiting & abuse of power cycle...

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Re: McCain v Obama

Postby ryguy » Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:17 pm

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:(big sigh). I hear you saying that you "get it", Ryan, but I really don't think you do (at least not from your rhetoric). Bush was not a dictator, and he didn't do all those "bad things" without help, and that includes help from the Dems.


I do agree with that - that he didn't do it alone. Cheney played a very big part in the abuse of power within the administration as well, as did the Republican majority who pretty much did everything they wanted to within the confines of their majority power...obviously the Democratic minority had some power to fight back, but not much. The same danger exists today, of course, but only time will tell whether or not they learn from the mistakes of the Bush administration.

I have always pointed out that I can always find things about any president that I like, and things I don't like. That includes Bush, and I am hopeful I will find things about Obama that I like as well. But one guy does not evil (or a savior) make in our system. Obama has a Dem machine behind him, just like Bush had a Repub machine behind him. And are you so insenced at Bush (or just embarassed because YOU voted for him too) that you cannot acknowledge even the few things he did right?


Yes, I'm embarassed I voted for him in 2000...lol. To be honest, I wanted McCain - but the power of the Bush family attacked McCain's character and his military record and booted him out of the Republican primaries...I was furious that they did that to McCain, but I was also a staunch anti-tax, anti-government spending Republican. I even listened to Rush Limbaugh every morning - and loved his rhetoric. Right on man...damn non-working, wino/druggy government assistance leeches.... So yeah, I voted for Bush in 2000 because I believed in the Republican rhetoric, the party platform, their religious strength and faith, and their steadfast belief that the government should be smaller and tax less. God bless em....

Then, I watched Bush closely during that first term. He took more vacations than most any president before him...the man practically lived in Crawford more than he was in DC. I was astounded watching him give the State of the Union. My first thought was...by god, we've elected a man with a 2nd grade vocabulary. "Okay," I told myself, "it's just a weird language/speech impediment...I'm sure he's a very intelligent man who will step up and lead."

The start of 2001 comes around...more vacations, golfing, talk about a tax refund (yay!), and the Republicans start flexing their political muscle...passing some odd religious-related legislation...Bush injecting a great deal of religion into speeches...the Republicans focusing so much on religion... I started to sweat. What's going on here? What about the important issues - health care, social security for Pete sake...what's going on?

Was he a "bumbling idiot" when we were going thru 9/11? Was he "screwing up" when he and his admin worked to cut taxes and keep our economy going after 9/11?


Yes and Yes. His true colors came out after 9/11. The actions of this president the minutes, hours and months following the attack revealed his rich-boy, self-preserving nature. He takes forever to react and take control and command (much like Hurricane Katrina), he stands in the middle of the wreckage with his bullhorn shouting out we're gonna get you back you terrorists, he starts out doing the right thing and going after Bin Ladin and the terrorists at their home base in Afghanistan...driving them into the mountains and into Pakistan.

And then the true blunder...the true moment in 2002/2003 when everything I previously believed about the Republicans was shattered forever. Before completing the mission in Afghanistan...suddenly the administration is talking about Iraq. Say what? Oh yeah....yeah Saddam has WMD...uh-huh...see people, Saddam is a terrorist to! Yeah, it's true! Forget Bin Ladin...yeah he's just some shmuck in the mountains...THIS war is larger than one man...come on folks...let's go get Saddam first! Yeah...see those trucks on the ground, those are chemical weapons...um...oh and by the way we're quite certain that the Iraqis were helping the terrorists somehow...yeah...you see we have intel you don't know about, so trust us.

Trust us.

Saddam was certainly a dictator, he had been for a very, very long time. But what the country needed in those critical months following 9/11 was a swift, conclusive, and final blow to Bin Ladin and his specific fighters. After completing that mission, the case for toppling Saddam could certainly have been made, for the national security of the country in securing the oil, and for the human rights issues of the suffering under his dictatorship. However, Bush blew the Afghanistan mission and instead chose to race for the source of middle east oil. His family roots explain a lot of the reasons why...but we won't get into that, it was discussed enough in another thread.

And let's not forget that this economic mess was also not ALL of Bush's doings.


No economic mess is ever the doings of a specific president. Neither Bush nor Clinton had 100% ability to completely grow or harm the ecnomony. However, the action (or horrible inaction) of a President during his watch has a significant impact on it in the following months and years. His politics and economic policy has crippled an economy that was already suffering from the economic toll of the Iraq conflict.

The Economic Consequences of Mr. Bush
from Vanity Fair

Here's just a sample from this article that lays out the evidence & facts fairly well:

I can hear an irritated counterthrust already. The president has not driven the United States into a recession during his almost seven years in office. Unemployment stands at a respectable 4.6 percent. Well, fine. But the other side of the ledger groans with distress: a tax code that has become hideously biased in favor of the rich; a national debt that will probably have grown 70 percent by the time this president leaves Washington; a swelling cascade of mortgage defaults; a record near-$850 billion trade deficit; oil prices that are higher than they have ever been; and a dollar so weak that for an American to buy a cup of coffee in London or Paris—or even the Yukon—becomes a venture in high finance.

And it gets worse. After almost seven years of this president, the United States is less prepared than ever to face the future. We have not been educating enough engineers and scientists, people with the skills we will need to compete with China and India. We have not been investing in the kinds of basic research that made us the technological powerhouse of the late 20th century. And although the president now understands—or so he says—that we must begin to wean ourselves from oil and coal, we have on his watch become more deeply dependent on both.


That's the tip of the iceburg anyway...I don't really have the time right now to go into everything, but dissecting what's wrong with the Bush policies of the last 8 years is pretty obvious to anyone who examines the evidence in an unbiased manner.

PLEASE try to be a bit more unbiased that you are currently exhibiting, Ryan.


Will do...didn't realize I was being biased...I was just posting my opinion based on the facts about what has gone one over the last 8 years under failed political/economic/military policies.

The Republicans wasted their own "mandate" from the late 90s and early 2000s on doing stupid things. I predict that because the pendulum has swung so far back to the left, that the Dems will over-assess their power, and you will see Pelosi stifling the Republicans....the exact same thing she and her cronies complained about during Republican rule.


I hope your wrong. I'm not going to say you are because they haven't had a chance yet. I'm not going to damn the Obama administration before he has a chance to even choose who will be in his cabinet. All we can do is hope that he will recognize how Bush's abuse of power failed, and not make those same mistakes. You know what...I think based on the overwhelming anti-republican election results...he, and the democrats, probably got the message loud and clear.

You are a controls engineer, Ryan. Apply some of that knowledge to the oscillations between two opposing states that is our political system. Is it REALLY healthy for the overall system performance when it breaks out into such wild, back and forth swings?


I agree - that's the point of a control system isn't it? To inject counter-force (in whatever form) at just the right moment to push-back against the current direction and speed of the oscillation. Those counter-forces, injected at just the right time, bring the system back to a steady-state, rather than an acceleration like a runaway train. The injection of this election came at just the right time.

To continue the analogy, the root locus plot of our political system seems to have dualing sets of oscillatory poles in the LHP and RHP, and there appear to be absolutely NO zeros on the complex plane to help temper the oscillatory responses induced by these poles. As a controls engineer, would you EVER stand for a root-locus that looked like that and call it a "healthy system"???


I do see what you're saying Ray...but I don't see all Republicans and all Democrats as the same. You've got to keep in mind that I'm a moderate Republican. I can't stand Pelosi (hopefully they get rid of her as leader SOON), but I very much like moderate Democrats and moderate Republicans - that's why I voted for Susan Collins in Maine. She's one of the few Republicans who still got voted in...by a majority Democratic state, mind you. This isn't about which party has power, it's about what type of leader is in place...we elect leaders not based on party (hopefully) but based on the balance of their rhetoric and the history of their actions.

So yes, I'm hopeful that Obama will practice the "unity" he's talked about in his acceptance speech, and will embrace moderate Repubs and Democrats (and those of every other party) moving forward to improve the economy that's been destroyed by the last 8 years of the abuse of power.

Because the Dem machine will be in control of Congress, and will "mentor" Obama in his job, we've got the same old BS. Once the honeymoon wears off, I am sure it will be clear... I just want them to keep their stinking, greedy, power-hungry hands out of my pockets! We won't get REAL change until we break the Dem/Repub backbiting & abuse of power cycle...

Ray


You could be right, Ray. I very much hope that you're wrong. But we'll have to watch. First thing the Dems need to do is vote someone else to replace Pelosi ASAP, but first Obama needs to make sure Dems and Repubs are equally represented in his cabinet choices. We'll have to wait and see.

Cheers,
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Re: McCain v Obama

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Fri Nov 07, 2008 6:17 am

ryguy wrote: The injection of this election came at just the right time.


Unfortunately, you cannot possibly know that until/unless you have identified the system dynamics or have the characteristic equation. What I am getting at is, without knowing the system dynamics, this response could be much too high-gain (swing too far back to the left), and could be too far out of phase with the economy. And if this is so, it could induce worse oscillations. Without system dynamics all we can do is see what the time-domain looks like in the coming years. My gut feeling is we are too high gain and too out of phase with the economy.

First thing the Dems need to do is vote someone else to replace Pelosi ASAP


Here is one place we can certainly agree. Unfortunately, I do not see that happening, and Obama will have no power over that (and heck, he may actually like her in the job). The reality is she has had two years to DO SOMETHING, and she has done NOTHING (at least nothing positive). She had all these promises of "common sense ways to bring the prices of gas down" (which anyone who understands market economics knows is just a load of hot air BS she was spewing). We saw none of them, which even proves it was just campaign rhetoric. Instead, it takes economic contraction and the resulting effects on supply and demand to abate gas prices. She did NOTHING. Moreover, at the time when Congress is TRYING to pass a "bailout" bill to calm markets, all she can do is lay blame (and again, she laid blame all on Repubs/Bush when there is clear data that shows Dem complicity due to Community Reinvestment Act and Rep Frank and Sen Dodd resisting Repub moves and Greenspan recommendations for additional Fannie/Freddie regulation). She is a vitriolic, uber-left bitch. No nice words for her. And Harry Reid is either just her puppet or just as bad as she is. I am concerned that Obama is too close to these leftist idiots... I could always be wrong, but only time and actions by Obama will prove me wrong.

On a lighter note: Now that the election is over there is a terrible malaise coming to light in the lives of the Obamatrons... I hope you are not suffering, Ryan!

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/o ... EMTF_Onion

hee hee hee :lol:

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Re: McCain v Obama

Postby ryguy » Fri Nov 07, 2008 4:19 pm

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:
ryguy wrote: The injection of this election came at just the right time.

Unfortunately, you cannot possibly know that until/unless you have identified the system dynamics or have the characteristic equation. What I am getting at is, without knowing the system dynamics, this response could be much too high-gain (swing too far back to the left), and could be too far out of phase with the economy. And if this is so, it could induce worse oscillations. Without system dynamics all we can do is see what the time-domain looks like in the coming years. My gut feeling is we are too high gain and too out of phase with the economy.


Oh right...I see what you're saying. Yeah, I don't know, I mean it certainly does feel like we hit a peak in terms of economic crisis, in which case you'd be right. If the new administration starts going full force at this point in the system, we'll see an even worse crisis at the other swing of the pendulum. Absolutely. I just hope that the new administration chooses a financial advisor who's savvy enough to see that and act accordingly (and Obama listens). Of course the other part of the equation is the rest of Congress...can a Democratic controlled Senate and House restrain themselves? I don't know...history doesn't reflect kindly upon either party in those circumstances - again, I keep hoping Obama isn't blowing hot air and keeps his promise to unify the moderates within each party.

Here is one place we can certainly agree. Unfortunately, I do not see that happening, and Obama will have no power over that (and heck, he may actually like her in the job).


oh...please, no...lol

The reality is she has had two years to DO SOMETHING, and she has done NOTHING (at least nothing positive).


Yeah - actually she's been successful at making the Democratic party look like a bunch of left-wing nuts...they couldn't have picked a more divisive leader. I doubt there will be any "unity" or cooperation as long as she's at the helm.

Moreover, at the time when Congress is TRYING to pass a "bailout" bill to calm markets, all she can do is lay blame


Yup - I read about that. Even at a moment when there was *almost* a plan in place, which many of the moderate Republicans were going to support - she goes and opens her big mouth and claims the Democrats have to bail out the country "yet again"....and that's it...they lost those critical votes. It was such a stupid speech, and at the absolute worst possible time. I know I blame Bush often for sleeping at the wheel, but I don't blame either party as a whole. I blame the radicals of each party, but for her to blame the Republicans as a party does absolutely nothing to promote progress and move forward on the economy.

She is a vitriolic, uber-left bitch.


Couldn't have said it better myself...haha.

No nice words for her. And Harry Reid is either just her puppet or just as bad as she is. I am concerned that Obama is too close to these leftist idiots... I could always be wrong, but only time and actions by Obama will prove me wrong.


Yeah, I'm hoping that's not the case. I'm pretty sure most of that was only character assassination related to campaign tactics. The proof will be in the pudding either way. He'll either step up and prove his worth, or he'll walk the left-wing party line and lose the trust of all of the moderates throughout this country who voted him in there. Time will certainly tell - I'm watching him very closely, especially this first year.

On a lighter note: Now that the election is over there is a terrible malaise coming to light in the lives of the Obamatrons... I hope you are not suffering, Ryan!

http://www.theonion.com/content/video/o ... EMTF_Onion

hee hee hee :lol:

Ray


omg....that's a riot... haha!

-Ry
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