Capitalism collapses. Time for a change?

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Capitalism collapses. Time for a change?

Postby Chorlton » Mon May 24, 2010 8:22 am

So it looks like Capitalism is collapsing in on itself.
Is it now time for a radical change?
What about Socialism? Not Communism, but socialism.
People working for a company, actually owning it and getting equal pay?
I mean, how many cars and houses can you have, do you need?
I propose all companies be sold to the people that work in them. Shared equity.
Nationalise all healthcare, to be paid for by a small amount deducted from everyone's pay. If you dont work, then you work for your local Authority, and given a basic rate of food stamps and rent untill you can prgress upwards into full time work.
Insurance for cars to be tied to the road tax so all cars are insured, no exemptions. Registrations to be handled by the police. I week late for registration...you lose your car.

Hows that for a start?
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Re: Capitalism collapses. Time for a change?

Postby ryguy » Mon May 24, 2010 3:18 pm

I would like to vote for you for president. Although I suppose that might be difficult considering you were born in the UK. But if Obama can do it.... :)
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Re: Capitalism collapses. Time for a change?

Postby gunter » Mon May 24, 2010 6:33 pm

Hows that for a start?
Pretty good. But the best part is that it'll give Ray a nervous breakdown. I can't wait til we can call him tovarish.
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Re: Capitalism collapses. Time for a change?

Postby Chorlton » Mon May 24, 2010 7:38 pm

gunter wrote:
Hows that for a start?
Pretty good. But the best part is that it'll give Ray a nervous breakdown. I can't wait til we can call him tovarish.


Ahh but you see we wouldnt need any form of Comintern.
Government would be forced to be a Coalition of all political parties, With counties all enclosed into 3 main areas, England Ireland Scotland and Wales. These Councills would each have a central office with representatives in each relevant area. These councils would control Local issues. Central Government would decide large issues and International issues but would be influenced by peoples representatives locally.
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Re: Capitalism collapses. Time for a change?

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue May 25, 2010 3:30 am

Chorlton wrote:So it looks like Capitalism is collapsing in on itself.
Is it now time for a radical change?
What about Socialism? Not Communism, but socialism.
(snip)
Hows that for a start?


Uhhhh..... YOU FIRST! Rather than drag the rest of the western world through your ideological experiments (which are doomed to fail because they do not reflect the inherent nature of humanity, which is to compete and respond to incentives), why don't you and Toon just move on off to Venezuela? You can help Hugo craft the "next great socialist experiment." That way, when it fails, as it always does, we in the west will not have to pick up after you and pay for your failure.

http://www.thefreemanonline.org/feature ... m-failed/#

In a radio debate several months ago with a Marxist professor from the University of Minnesota, I pointed out the obvious failures of socialism around the world in Cuba, Eastern Europe, and China. At the time of our debate, Haitian refugees were risking their lives trying to get to Florida in homemade boats. Why was it, I asked him, that people were fleeing Haiti and traveling almost 500 miles by ocean to get to the "evil capitalist empire" when they were only 50 miles from the "workers’ paradise" of Cuba?

The Marxist admitted that many "socialist" countries around the world were failing. However, according to him, the reason for failure is not that socialism is deficient, but that the socialist economies are not practicing "pure" socialism. The perfect version of socialism would work; it is just the imperfect socialism that doesn’t work. Marxists like to compare a theoretically perfect version of socialism with practical, imperfect capitalism which allows them to claim that socialism is superior to capitalism.


So the reason that all socialist experiments have failed in the past is because they have not had Chorlton and Gunter at the helm? I see. But pray tell how does the socialist model account for natural human traits, which are to compete? Answer: It doesn't. Moreover, the people who still want to compete (and succeed over others who do not wish to work as hard) will ultimately lead to these people cheating, and siezing power wherever and however they can.

Seeing as how you will never see the fallacy of your ways in this regard (think of me telling you this as if it were you telling someone else "there are no UFOs"), then let me just ask one question of you Chorlton:

When the socialist central planners come to your house and decide to take your fine, fancy automobiles away from you because they are not "the state-sanctioned, same car that others have", how will you feel about socialism then?

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Re: Capitalism collapses. Time for a change?

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue May 25, 2010 3:34 am

Chorlton wrote:
gunter wrote:
Hows that for a start?
Pretty good. But the best part is that it'll give Ray a nervous breakdown. I can't wait til we can call him tovarish.


Ahh but you see we wouldnt need any form of Comintern.
Government would be forced to be a Coalition of all political parties,


Exactly. FORCE. And now you will explain to us all just WHO will do the "forcing", yes?

Let us also not forget that the first requirement for installing a socialist government is that the citizens must be disarmed, for they will never give up their property willingly. Looks like you saps over there in the UK already meet this requirement! ;) You have fun with that, now...but don't come scratching around your old colonies, mmmm'kay? We have grown up and come to the realization that perfection and idealism are not reality...

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Re: Capitalism collapses. Time for a change?

Postby Chorlton » Tue May 25, 2010 7:49 am

Gott ato go to the hospital for a lot of tests today so will reply when I get back, but Ray, youre looking at the wrong model of Socialism
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Re: Capitalism collapses. Time for a change?

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue May 25, 2010 2:20 pm

Chorlton wrote:Gott ato go to the hospital for a lot of tests today so will reply when I get back, but Ray, youre looking at the wrong model of Socialism


I hope you pass the tests with flying colors, bud! :) But I know what you are saying, and that was what I was referring to in my reply. Namely, people who want to try socialism again (despite that it has never worked, even once, without failing miserably) will always offer the same apology: "Oh, they just did not do it right. We now have the technology to do it right."

I still want to know who does the "forcing" because that says a lot about how well (or if) free people will ever willingly accept socialism. But do tell me your model...
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Re: Capitalism collapses. Time for a change?

Postby Chorlton » Tue May 25, 2010 3:00 pm

OK In my opinion, after 100 years+ of capitalism its collapsing through greed and missmanagement.
Surely in this day and age we are now capable of sorting out a system, maybe part capitalism, part socialism that actually works.
The US system doesnt work. It encourages greed and the generation of violence to support that greed. It can now be seen to be collapsing in on itself. You cant have the top 2% of the populations having 98% of the wealth. (I think thats the figure, if it isnt its not far out) The Japanese system, created pretty much by the US is also in the process of collapsing in on itself.

To address some of your points Ray. 'Who does the forcing'?.Well if the Government of the day didnt accept the idea then the people do the forcing, either by the ballot box or by revolution. The English people showed they will stand up for what they think is right by closing London when we had the Poll Tax Riots in the 70's and when Bush came over. The Government respected it too by not calling the army out despite over a Million people flooding into the capitol. We dont need guns and arms, sheer force of numbers will work. Its also questionable if the Army would come out against the people. The last timne they tried that we chopped a Kings head off and disbanded them. But it wouldnt need to get to that. In fact I suspect we are now on a more direct route to a more socialistic way of life with the Coalition now in Government. A Coalition of Capitalists, and Social Democrats. First time in a hundred years or so, What it shows is the way the people of England are feeling.
We will soon be asked to vote for a new Electoral system of Proportional representation. That in itself will change the way the UK is Governed, it in itself will FORCE a coalition of parties. They are simply going to have to work together for the betterment of the British people or they will be thrown out, BY the British people. It is OUR House of Commons we have the right to toss the bleeders out, physically or electoraly.

Love it or hate it. The UK system based as it is around socialism is working and has worked for longer than the USA has existed. It aint perfect, but its based around looking after those who cannot look after themselves, Free healthcare and benefits for those who are too sick to work. Yep you have a bigger country but it could still work and it looks like Obama is trying. Dont knock the man for trying.

No one is going to kncok on your door and take your car away. That isnt the idea, the idea is everyone would have a car. People should own the factory they work in. It would give them more of an impetus to work hard and make their factory successfull. Yep there are going to be slackers and we will need people to work out a system to encourage them to work. But if its a choice between a very basic lief on food stamps and basic benefits or work and join the rest of the people I'm sure they will see the error of their ways.
What is going ot happen to the Innovators and the people that start these companies up? The point is there will have to be some sort of pay gradings. I dont know.
What I can see is that the system thats now crumbling around you in the US, and some other parts of the world needs to be sorted. needs a radical change. Ive always despised a European Union but am starting to see some of the benefits now what with Greece being bailed out. Yes theyve been bailed out but it wont happen again. Their Government will HAVE to change. If it doesnt, they are out. Im also impressed with how the Financial collapse in the US didnt have too many repercussions with us in Europe. Thats another benefit of a socialit leaning Union.
Pure capitalism just wont work. You can only piss the people off for so long, then they will rise up.
Politicians of the world are slowly learning they are there to serve the people, not Vice versa. Thats a bitter pill the Government of Thailand has just learned. But theyve only had full Democracy for 20-odd years. They will learn though.

Ahh the tests. Ive got a badly torn cartillage in my knee. Probably delayed action from the car smash that they just didnt look for ! Its showing up now though as the other problems are slowly healing, bloody painfull. But Ill live !
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Re: Capitalism collapses. Time for a change?

Postby gunter » Tue May 25, 2010 8:51 pm

the inherent nature of humanity
The first errant presupposition. This where Ray leaves the tracks.
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Re: Capitalism collapses. Time for a change?

Postby lost_shaman » Thu May 27, 2010 4:56 am

Socialism as opposed to Capitalism, is an absolute failure. It fails everytime it is tried. It fails even when Capitalist economies and International Banks prop it up.

No matter how utopian you try to make it sound Socialism is always a Class based economy that relies on the "Worker" class working harder and harder to achieve State goals while the State promises more and more benefits that will never be realised by the harder working "worker".

Take Greece for instance, people were told they could retire at 52 except now the state is financially failed. Sounds great, but doesn't work.

On the other hand Capitalism works very well in the U.S., as long as we don't screw it up it potentially will continue to work for a long time to come.
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Re: Capitalism collapses. Time for a change?

Postby Chorlton » Thu May 27, 2010 8:14 am

lost_shaman wrote:On the other hand Capitalism works very well in the U.S., as long as we don't screw it up it potentially will continue to work for a long time to come.


The idea isnt pure socialism if you read what was written.
And from where Im sitting your system is falling apart at the seams.
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Re: Capitalism collapses. Time for a change?

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Thu May 27, 2010 3:45 pm

Tattered Liberty by Mark Steyn

No doubt many here will cherry-pick what they agree with and disagree with in this article. Our British friends may not like the stark reality that they have not been leaders, but followers, for so many years. Toon will, no doubt, agree with the facts of our defense spending, but will not admit that the British Nanny State has arisen because they did not need to spend heaps of money on defense because they were protected under America's wing. So then spend it on entitlements...handouts! And the biggest socialist handout? The Monarchy. God save the Queen. Well, it's not so much God saving her as it is every single Commoner paying for her, literally, regal lifestyle. If socialism is what our British chappy Chorlton wants, then is he willing to see the beloved, traditional Monarchy descend into living just as the Commoners?

Euro socialists love to blame America and our hegemonism, but at the same time they sleep safe in their beds because of it. Of course, they would never admit that. In their minds they are as strong as they ever were (the glory days) and they can stand-up for themselves if evil comes-a-knockin.

Well, if the decline of America as the world's cop is indeed on its way, then those who think this way will be given a wonderful chance to prove their strength. But more than likely, they will just blame America for not "being there" for them at their hour of need. Of course by that time the America you once knew will not be there to blame. We will have become the handout-dependent socialists that these Euro socialists have become. Then we can blame each other while we demand more from the nipple that has run out of milk.

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Re: Capitalism collapses. Time for a change?

Postby Chorlton » Fri May 28, 2010 10:24 am

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:Tattered Liberty by Mark Steyn

No doubt many here will cherry-pick what they agree with and disagree with in this article. Our British friends may not like the stark reality that they have not been leaders, but followers, for so many years.

Cheery pick Ray? isnt that what the article itself and your post has done?

But there is no stark reality Ray. After WWII it was obvious to even the most idealistic amongst the UK people that a rearrangement of the world order was taking place and we were probably the first to admit it. Those who like to insult the English think its some sort of incredible realisation, but it wasnt. I'm trying to find a little known speech by Churchill where he stated that, once WWII was over there would be a distinct change in world politics and England, Europe and the world would never be the same.
Toon will, no doubt, agree with the facts of our defense spending, but will not admit that the British Nanny State has arisen because they did not need to spend heaps of money on defense because they were protected under America's wing.

What total and utter bollocks. On the one hand you accuse us of not being leaders any more and on the other you denigrate us because we dont maintain a leaders attack and defense potential? Make your mind up.
Weve had our own Independant Nuclear Deterrent since 1952. In the 60s after an exchange (I love that word 'exchange' what it means is we developed most of the technical stuff for the missiles which you dismally failed to do including rocketry) we agreed to work together and develop a joint Nuclear defence system. Dont forget, in the 60's we were launching very successfull rockets, whilst most of yours were exploding on the pads or 10 ft off the ground. Yes we had problems with Blue Streak. I could say a LOT more about America's involvement with Blue Streak but would probably end up in prison or being extradited to Abu Ghraib. But let it be known, the US did NOT want the UK to develop it.
And Jet engines? Dont worry mate, we invented them then gave the stuff to you. All you lot could do, just like your cars was to put bigger engines in.
Most of the weapons systems you use in the US have a LOT of British technology. Your space programme would probably consist of $2 rockets being launched from pop bottles if it werent for British Guidance systems and associated Rocketry. Yep Von Braun helped you but a lot of the work was done by the Brits too.
I mean take the AH-64 Apache as a simple example. Great machine, SHITE technology. We bought some then realised we could actually make them better and more technically advanced.
So we began making them under license and we now have the Apache AH1 built by Westland.
We junked your crap engine and stuck Rolls Royce engines in, much more pwerfull, invented folding props for Naval use. Completely rejigged the communications sytems, changed systems to stop the Hellfire missiles blowing the tail rotor off !! I am also advised that serious changes were made to the target acqusition and targetting systems too.
But we got our money back as we then sold all that technology back to you. Nice !

The UK is a small Country and our defence spending has to be in relation to our GDP and population and overseas responsibilities which we are slowly reducing, but to say we wer sheltering under the US's wing is total bollocks. After the war we had to spend practically everything we had on rebuilding the country after the bombing by the Germans, We also had to repay you Yanks for the arms you sold us, as well as helping to pay to rebuild Germany and Europe whilst still maintaining an effective army Navy and Air Force. Weve always had our nuclear deterrent and up untill recently a very effective Navy and Army. Funny how your special Forces come to us for training by our SAS?. You accuse our Nanny State of sheltering under your wing? Once more, utter bollocks and total fallcy as created by tosspots who dont like the truth. The UK's National Health system was created in 1948, 3 years after the war. Were we still 'sheltering under your wing' then Ray? No we werent. We were rebuilding our Country, rebuilding our industry and the NHS was created as a Direct response to what the people of England had done for their country.
Youll be coming out with that old nugget about us all speaking German if it werent for you soon, eh?[/quote]

So then spend it on entitlements...handouts!

We have no 'Handouts' in our Country Ray, none at all, please get your facts straight. From the day anyone starts work in the UK they start to pay 'National Insurance. See those words Ray, National INSURANCE
its an Insurance policy, that pays you if you are unable to work. Do you have Insurance Ray?, what we have is the SAME THING, only its run by the State and not a private profiteering insurance Company, with the money generated going into the public purse. One often hears about how much money the UK pays out in Inmsurance, but they like to keep it quiet about the actual figure they actually RECEIVE in payments from the UK people.

And the biggest socialist handout? The Monarchy. God save the Queen. Well, it's not so much God saving her as it is every single Commoner paying for her, literally, regal lifestyle. If socialism is what our British chappy Chorlton wants, then is he willing to see the beloved, traditional Monarchy descend into living just as the Commoners?

Well taking your last point first, it wouldnt bother me at all. I'd be quite happy to have a republic. Effectively thats what we have, as the Queen plays no part in any political decisions.
But lets take your point further, yes the Monarchy is paid a certain amount of money, but one could say that money is returned to the British people, firstly in taxes they pay (they do pay taxes now) the Tourism they and their properties generate, but first and foremost by the maintenance of HISTORY. Something the US just doesnt have. History. As stated, it wouldnt worry me to see the Monarchy abolished, but it would hurt as we would lose a solid, touchable link to thousands of years of linear History.

Euro socialists love to blame America and our hegemonism, but at the same time they sleep safe in their beds because of it.

f---- me Ray stop the bollocks mate.
The combined power of Europe is what protects it. We have 831 million people, 2 countries with Nuclear Capability and a military capability outnumbering the US. The US with its mere 309 million doesnt let us sleep in our beds at all. One could postulate its the other way round. OUR power (us being the combined EU), both militarily and humanly form a buffer enabling YOU to sleep in your beds. If the s^~t hits the fan from the East, its going to be the EU thats hit first.

Of course, they would never admit that. In their minds they are as strong as they ever were (the glory days) and they can stand-up for themselves if evil comes-a-knockin.
Strange when evil comes a knocking at the US door, we are the firt people you pick up the phone and speak to? Aint that strange.

But see above Ray. What you Yanks cant admit is that even now you are a second rate country. At least we ruled the world for a time. The US never has. IF the Chinese get pissed off, you are toast. The Russians too are building up a nice armoury again. America is a bog standard second rate power. Simply because the other countries dont poke their nose into other countries politics doesnt mean they arent powerfull, it just means they have more brains and dont want to impose THEIR idea of Democracy onto the rest of the world..

Well, if the decline of America as the world's cop is indeed on its way, then those who think this way will be given a wonderful chance to prove their strength.

Theres another of your problems Ray. the US never has been considered the Worlds cop. It likes to tell its people it is, its likes to tell itself it is, but that doesnt mean its true. It wades, John Wayne style into other countries politics and territories but that doesnt make it a a cop. It makes it a bully. Yep some smaller countries ask the US to help them but whats the normal result? Failure. Tell me one country that the US has been involved in that came out better after US involvement?? OHH Japan ?? thats after you nuked it twice? hahaha Vietnam? Fail, You also totally negate quiet diplomacy effected by many countries, quietly, peacefully without goiung in, guns blazing.

But more than likely, they will just blame America for not "being there" for them at their hour of need.

You cling on to that thought if it makes you happy. Its totally untrue but I suspect it gives many US citizens that warm fuzzy feeling :D

Of course by that time the America you once knew will not be there to blame. We will have become the handout-dependent socialists that these Euro socialists have become. Then we can blame each other while we demand more from the nipple that has run out of milk.Ray


Hence my suggestion its time for a more socialistic way. Socialism doesnt equate to Communism Ray, but its rapidly becoming clear that there are some things that simply cannot be run competently and fairly by Capitalism. Capitalism is based solely on Greed. its the 'f---- you jack, I'm alright' attitude that was also seen in the UK in the 70's and 80's. Fortunately the evils of that were seen, and the Prime minster who encouraged it was booted out.
Your system is collapsing, your civilisation is collapsing, albeit slowly, but it is, because you havent heeded the lessons of the past, short though your past is.
I am always amazed at how quickly the US is to feed and give handouts to poor Africans etc etc etc and then s^~t on its own people's? Must give the rich a nice warm feeling, but while you are engendering love in one part of the world you are generating hate in you your own.

I know that slagging off the UK is a fun topic, but weve been going a long time and learn our lessons well.Were also big enough to stand up to your laughing as we see you slowly sliding into the s^~t. The US is a mere child of what? 300years old? Fcuk me, my last house was already 200 years old before anyone ever set foot on your mainland.
People seem to put their own spin on what THEY think WE think. WE dont think we rule the waves any more, we know that, WE DONT think we are a world superpower anymore, there is no need. What we DO have is Precedent and History.The basic tactics of war on a Global scale were invented by us and most of those battle plans are still used today.
So, you got any more b.s. and crap to lob out? maybe how youre going to win the World cup? HAHAHAHA
I just cant see how they are going to be able to run what with all that padding and protection on them. I suspect theyll also be too worried about damaging all their plastic teeth and plastic surgery.
But all this from a country who's national game is a game invented by the UK and played by girls?...... Rounders?
BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Gotta go out to the garage. Too much Camber on me front wheels, or I would have posted 3 more pages about my opinions of the US ofA
America is indeed a GREAT Country, its certain pissheads that live there that f---- it up :lol: .
Last edited by Chorlton on Wed Jun 02, 2010 8:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Capitalism collapses. Time for a change?

Postby gunter » Tue Jun 01, 2010 5:06 pm

Well- a heady rant like that deserves a well deserved "God save the Queen!" Well said, cousin- every last word of it.
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