Does this matter?

Everything Political

Does this matter?

Postby cartoonsyndicate » Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:49 pm

FBI abuse: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11100916/

You were warned about the potential for abuse built into the so-called "Patriot Act."

Does it matter to you that the FBI has free reign to over-ride the entire Bill of Rights?

I think even Ray will have to be concerned. (Even though he's done nothing wrong and has no reason to fear the examination of his ass.)

What the hell is happening to our Republic? We're now all presumed 'terrorists.'

(except Ray, of course)
amidst the growing ripples and wiry bamboos, broken in youth like the teeth of a mutant.. Afterburn, ca 1978
User avatar
cartoonsyndicate
Suspended
 
Posts: 851
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 12:10 pm
Location: The Borg


Re: Does this matter?

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:04 pm

I take it you are trolling for a flame war, CS? Moreover, I wonder what this has to do with Serpo... Oh yes, I forgot, it's because you hate Bush.

cartoonsyndicate wrote:Does it matter to you that the FBI has free reign to over-ride the entire Bill of Rights?


Perhaps a sleight exaggeration, no?

I think even Ray will have to be concerned. (Even though he's done nothing wrong and has no reason to fear the examination of his ass.)


Dude, I work on advanced military aircraft flight control systems, and have a Secret clearance to do so. I am quite sure the Feds know every feature of my ass quite well... and apparantly they still trust me. And I don't have any problem with them knowing what they know about me.

What the hell is happening to our Republic? We're now all presumed 'terrorists.'

(except Ray, of course)


Cute. But instead of constantly complaining about the "wrongs", perhaps you could pony up your own ideas on how to combat terrorism and espionage? Oh that's right... in the ideal world of CS, we just trust everyone, no questions asked, right?

In the rush to hype abuses of power it is easy to miss the fact that:

1) There were oversights and audits required by law.
2) Those audits uncovered abuse, just as they were intended to do.
3) Problems will be corrected, and I also suspect some heads will roll.
4) The process worked and this shows the Republic is not as "broken" as some might make it out to be.

Ray
The Universe is an Integrated System. Operational, Functional, and Physical.
User avatar
You Can Call Me Ray
Uncovers Reality
Uncovers Reality
 
Posts: 1914
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:49 pm
Location: Huntington Beach, CA, USA

Re: Does this matter?

Postby cartoonsyndicate » Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:36 pm

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:I take it you are trolling for a flame war, CS? Moreover, I wonder what this has to do with Serpo... Oh yes, I forgot, it's because you hate Bush.

cartoonsyndicate wrote:Does it matter to you that the FBI has free reign to over-ride the entire Bill of Rights?


Perhaps a sleight exaggeration, no?

I think even Ray will have to be concerned. (Even though he's done nothing wrong and has no reason to fear the examination of his ass.)


Dude, I work on advanced military aircraft flight control systems, and have a Secret clearance to do so. I am quite sure the Feds know every feature of my ass quite well... and apparantly they still trust me. And I don't have any problem with them knowing what they know about me.

What the hell is happening to our Republic? We're now all presumed 'terrorists.'

(except Ray, of course)


Cute. But instead of constantly complaining about the "wrongs", perhaps you could pony up your own ideas on how to combat terrorism and espionage? Oh that's right... in the ideal world of CS, we just trust everyone, no questions asked, right?

In the rush to hype abuses of power it is easy to miss the fact that:

1) There were oversights and audits required by law.
2) Those audits uncovered abuse, just as they were intended to do.
3) Problems will be corrected, and I also suspect some heads will roll.
4) The process worked and this shows the Republic is not as "broken" as some might make it out to be.

Ray


ok ray- the government uber alles. i got your point.

And I don't have any problem with them knowing what they know about me.


i can see that. i have a certain inclination towards jefferseronian freedoms. the 4th amendment comes to mind.

i realize that you and dumbya feel that the bill of rights is just a piece of paper, but i disagree.
amidst the growing ripples and wiry bamboos, broken in youth like the teeth of a mutant.. Afterburn, ca 1978
User avatar
cartoonsyndicate
Suspended
 
Posts: 851
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 12:10 pm
Location: The Borg

Re: Does this matter?

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:52 pm

cartoonsyndicate wrote:ok ray- the government uber alles. i got your point.


No, you missed my point because you just keep up the polemics. As usual you ignore the tougher questions, such as what YOU would do, and instead just take pot-shots at me. Pretty cushy life you live there, CS...

Riddle me this: Which would you find to be worse - FBI abusing domestic surveillance powers or... a president approving nuclear technology transfer to China (for campaign buck$)?

Ray
The Universe is an Integrated System. Operational, Functional, and Physical.
User avatar
You Can Call Me Ray
Uncovers Reality
Uncovers Reality
 
Posts: 1914
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:49 pm
Location: Huntington Beach, CA, USA

Postby cartoonsyndicate » Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:59 pm

Riddle me this: Which would you find to be worse - FBI abusing domestic surveillance powers or... a president approving nuclear technology transfer to China (for campaign buck$)?


The violation of the Bill of Rights is the very worst thing possible. That GHWB transfered technology to China is a non-starter. He did what he needed to do in order to establish peace. And I say this as a Walker. You may think that your petty security clearance has some meaning- but it does not. There is but one sacred document in America and it is the Bill of Rights. Violate it at your peril.
amidst the growing ripples and wiry bamboos, broken in youth like the teeth of a mutant.. Afterburn, ca 1978
User avatar
cartoonsyndicate
Suspended
 
Posts: 851
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 12:10 pm
Location: The Borg

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:02 am

cartoonsyndicate wrote:That GHWB transfered technology to China is a non-starter.


It most certainly is not, for many reasons. The most important being that the perp was Clinton. And now Hillary is warning us about China? Guess she ought to know from her dirty dealings with them in the past, huh?

Ray
The Universe is an Integrated System. Operational, Functional, and Physical.
User avatar
You Can Call Me Ray
Uncovers Reality
Uncovers Reality
 
Posts: 1914
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:49 pm
Location: Huntington Beach, CA, USA

Postby I.P.Freely » Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:24 am

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:
cartoonsyndicate wrote:That GHWB transfered technology to China is a non-starter.


It most certainly is not, for many reasons. The most important being that the perp was Clinton. And now Hillary is warning us about China? Guess she ought to know from her dirty dealings with them in the past, huh?

Ray


come on now if this where true why did they not try to impeach him for this? I guess A bj is a more major offense. Or maybe its hard to prove a lie. And here is an idea on how to combat terrorism. Make sure everyone has a job, a means of supporting their family. Give them hope in a future where their children can grow and perhaps have a better life then them.

It is so stupid of some people not to realize that no matter the color of our skin or name we use for god we all love our children the same no more, no less. And what would you do if you had to watch children deprived clean water and starving, with no hope for a better future. Without hope you have nothing, and so nothing to lose. Just think of all the lives that could have been made better with money that has been spent on this war instead of used to kill them. Sad very very sad. And If you can,t understand that you don,t deserve the blessed life you have.

Do you really think that if they had a home and family to go home to after an honest days labor they would chose to blow themselves up.
Last edited by I.P.Freely on Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
"You can either trust people or not. I choose to trust what people say and sometimes I get lied to. If I were to trust no one I would never hear the truth." - James (IPF) Martell
I.P.Freely
Clearly Discerns Reality
Clearly Discerns Reality
 
Posts: 611
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:48 pm

Postby ryguy » Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:34 am

Wow...we really need a politics section. lol

-Ry
---
"Only a fool of a scientist would dismiss the evidence and reports in front of him and substitute his own beliefs in their place." - Paul Kurtz

The RU Blog
Top Secret Writers
User avatar
ryguy
1 of the RU3
 
Posts: 4920
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:49 am
Location: Another Dimension

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:35 pm

IPF,
I.P.Freely wrote:
You Can Call Me Ray wrote:
cartoonsyndicate wrote:That GHWB transfered technology to China is a non-starter.


It most certainly is not, for many reasons. The most important being that the perp was Clinton. And now Hillary is warning us about China? Guess she ought to know from her dirty dealings with them in the past, huh?

Ray


come on now if this where true why did they not try to impeach him for this?


Are you saying this is not true? And are you implying that "they" did not send Clinton a clear warning about this? You might want to do some homework before your next rant:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/po ... 052198.htm

In a series of nearly unanimous votes, the House yesterday said President Clinton failed to act in "the national interest" earlier this year when he gave permission for a Chinese satellite launch to a U.S. aerospace firm with close Democratic ties, and moved to block him from approving similar exports.

Loral's corporate political action committee has been a generous donor to the Democratic National Committee, and its chief executive, Bernard Schwartz, gave more money to Democrats than any other individual in the 1996 election cycle.

By a vote of 417 to 4, the House also passed a damning, although nonbinding, "sense of the Congress" resolution offered by National Security Committee Chairman Floyd Spence (R-S.C.) and International Relations Committee Chairman Benjamin A. Gilman (N.Y.). The resolution urged the president not to enter into new agreements with China involving space or missile technology during the upcoming summit in June. It also declared that the administration's decision to issue the Loral waiver this year was "not in the national interest of the United States," and instructed the president to indefinitely suspend all U.S. satellite exports to China, including the latest Loral deal.
Emphasis mine.

I guess A bj is a more major offense.


He wasn't called "Slick Willy" for nothing. He perjured himself. Of that there is no question. And if he perjurs himself over something as inconsequential as a BJ, what else is he lying about?

My point here is that all you "Bush Bashers" are simply liberal Democrat, Howard Dean-loving finger-pointers who refuse to admit Democrats have been just as crooked as Repubs when the tables are turned. Face the reality. Clinton did things that are just as "bad" for America as things Bush is being held accountable for. I'm asking you to grow-up and realize that Power Corrupts on both sides of the political aisle. No one's hands are clean, and the partisan wrangling is exactly what the "powers that be" want you to do so they can work their deals secretly while you are arguing the two sides.

And here is an idea on how to combat terrorism. Make sure everyone has a job, a means of supporting their family.


So is this America's responsibility? To ensure every Islamist fascist has a job? Have you seen the lifestyle that Arabs in oil-rich states enjoy? Are you telling me these people have no opportunities? You have to put the gun and the explosives down if you want to go to work!!

Give them hope in a future where their children can grow and perhaps have a better life then them.


It's called America, and why do you think so many people want in? And again, who's job is it to "give them hope in a future"... their government or the US government? For all the wailing about how "criminal" the Bush Administration is, I can find a helluva lot more criminal acts coming from governments in the Middle East.

It is so stupid of some people not to realize that no matter the color of our skin or name we use for god we all love our children the same no more, no less.


If that were true then you would see Americans raising their kids to be suicide bombers to combat the Islamist suicide bombers' kids! Apparantly, we do NOT love our children equally well if one side wants to send their kids to college while the other side wants to send their kids to an early meeting with Allah and to collect his 72 virgins. Are you also ignoring the "fatwas" that these sects of Islam issue that deny women the same rights as men?

And what would you do if you had to watch children deprived clean water and starving, with no hope for a better future. Without hope you have nothing, and so nothing to lose. Just think of all the lives that could have been made better with money that has been spent on this war instead of used to kill them. Sad very very sad. And If you can,t understand that you don,t deserve the blessed life you have.


I suggest you look into how much US aid is already flowing to Muslim and Arab countries before you spout off. Do you honestly believe that NONE of the money the US gave to Arafat (in his day) went to suicide bombers, their weapons, or their families? My question is quite the opposite from yours: When do we STOP just giving them FREE MONEY without asking for FULL accountability as to where it goes and for what it is used? I think both you, and the entire world that feeds off of American handouts would be quite surprised if all of a sudden we CEASED ALL US Federal aid to other countries. The problem is the governments on the receiving ends are EVEN MORE corrupt than what we see in this country. And if you don't understand that, you don't deserve the brain you have. ;)

Do you really think that if they had a home and family to go home to after an honest days labor they would chose to blow themselves up.
So all those terrorists hiding in caves with Binny are just looking for a job? Gimme a break. They can come do my landscaping! :) Study their radical religious beliefs and I think you will see that indeed they DO CHOOSE to blow themselves up, not because they don't have jobs, but because they think by killing "infidels" they will be blessed by Allah. They kill in the name of God, don't you get that?

Ray
The Universe is an Integrated System. Operational, Functional, and Physical.
User avatar
You Can Call Me Ray
Uncovers Reality
Uncovers Reality
 
Posts: 1914
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:49 pm
Location: Huntington Beach, CA, USA

Postby ryguy » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:40 pm

Moved thread to our new Politics section. ;)

-Ry
---
"Only a fool of a scientist would dismiss the evidence and reports in front of him and substitute his own beliefs in their place." - Paul Kurtz

The RU Blog
Top Secret Writers
User avatar
ryguy
1 of the RU3
 
Posts: 4920
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:49 am
Location: Another Dimension

Postby cartoonsyndicate » Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:59 pm

So all those terrorists hiding in caves with Binny are just looking for a job? Gimme a break. They can come do my landscaping! Smile Study their radical religious beliefs and I think you will see that indeed they DO CHOOSE to blow themselves up, not because they don't have jobs, but because they think by killing "infidels" they will be blessed by Allah. They kill in the name of God, don't you get that?
This premise is true.



And what would you do if you had to watch children deprived clean water and starving, with no hope for a better future. Without hope you have nothing, and so nothing to lose. Just think of all the lives that could have been made better with money that has been spent on this war instead of used to kill them. Sad very very sad. And If you can,t understand that you don,t deserve the blessed life you have.
This premise is also true.

Are these divergent positions irreconcilable? Perhaps. But there may be a middle ground outside of the argument.

We insinuate ourselves into our operative world-views. In the case of IPF- one based upon the Beatitudes of Jesus, and in the case of Ray- one based on the Likud Party platform.

Is there then no middle way in this dialectic? I think there is. I call it disengagement and I've pontificated here about that position to the point of self-inflicted nausea. It is not a liberal democratic position, nor is it a Likudnik-neocon position. It is simply a way out of the quandary that has the potential of destroying the world. They fish on their side and we fish on ours. Simple.

It is a position that I share with that notorious commie Pat Buchanan and that notorious fascist Noam Chomsky. It may be termed 'come home America.' Is this the road to synthesis? I think so.

cs
Last edited by cartoonsyndicate on Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
amidst the growing ripples and wiry bamboos, broken in youth like the teeth of a mutant.. Afterburn, ca 1978
User avatar
cartoonsyndicate
Suspended
 
Posts: 851
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 12:10 pm
Location: The Borg

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:03 pm

As a follow-up to my previous comments about those who think the US is not doing enough to help others in the world (and thus making some sort of twisted excuse for terrorism), please examine this chart:

Image

Why are we still giving so much $ to Egypt? Don't they have jobs there? Ever see bunches of products with "made in Egypt" emblazoned on them? What are they DOING FOR US for this "aid"?

And Jordan is hardly a country of economic poverty. Are people there starving for jobs? Yet we give them money, mostly because they are a representative form of government who aligns with our ideals for how people should be treated. They even treat their women well in Jordan.

And look! We are also providing aid to the Palestinian administered areas! Wouldn't we all like to know exactly how every penny is spent?

If we are going to cry rivers and blame terrorism on these countries not having enough jobs, then why are they all too happy to take our $? The answer is because terrorism has nothing to do with how much $ we give. Indeed, wouldn't it be interesting to see what would happen if we cut off all aid to any ONE of the countries on this list? You can bet they would begin to complain about how "evil" the US is... for taking away free $!!!

I am a bit fed-up at people who want to insinuate that somehow everything that is wrong in the world is the fault of America! Could it possibly be that the majority of terrorists are just plain, old murderous thugs?
Ray
The Universe is an Integrated System. Operational, Functional, and Physical.
User avatar
You Can Call Me Ray
Uncovers Reality
Uncovers Reality
 
Posts: 1914
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:49 pm
Location: Huntington Beach, CA, USA

Postby cartoonsyndicate » Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:10 pm

In terms of per capita contributions the USA is shamefully at the bottom of the list.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0930884.html

Per Capita Foreign Aid Assistance by World's Wealthiest Countries, 2002
Country Per capita
government aid Per capita
private giving
Australia 14¢ 3¢
Austria 18 2
Belgium 28 2
Canada 17 2
Denmark 64 1
Finland 24 1
France 25 1
Greece 7 0.1
Germany 18 3
Ireland 28 6
Italy 11 0.2
Japan 20¢ 0.4¢
Netherlands 57 4
New Zealand 8 1
Norway 102 24
Portugal 9 0.1
Spain 11 1
Sweden 61 1
Switzerland 35 7
United Kingdom 23 2
United States 13 5

Only Greece, Italy, Spain and Portugal gave less than the US. Shame on us.

cs
amidst the growing ripples and wiry bamboos, broken in youth like the teeth of a mutant.. Afterburn, ca 1978
User avatar
cartoonsyndicate
Suspended
 
Posts: 851
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 12:10 pm
Location: The Borg

Postby cartoonsyndicate » Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:17 pm

Oh- and New Zealand...
amidst the growing ripples and wiry bamboos, broken in youth like the teeth of a mutant.. Afterburn, ca 1978
User avatar
cartoonsyndicate
Suspended
 
Posts: 851
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 12:10 pm
Location: The Borg

Postby cartoonsyndicate » Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:28 pm

ryguy wrote:Moved thread to our new Politics section. ;)

-Ry


Thanks for the new thread.

Everything is ultimately politics. So this thread will necessarily meander. But so be it.

It is much more than a poisonous reparte among Ray-Shawna-Max and IPF,CS,Hawk, MJ and Drew.

There are transcendent issues here that require redress.

cs
amidst the growing ripples and wiry bamboos, broken in youth like the teeth of a mutant.. Afterburn, ca 1978
User avatar
cartoonsyndicate
Suspended
 
Posts: 851
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 12:10 pm
Location: The Borg

Next

Google

Return to Politics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 8 guests

cron