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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:48 pm

cartoonsyndicate wrote:In terms of per capita contributions the USA is shamefully at the bottom of the list.
That's because you haven't given your fair share! ;)

So could you explain to me why a "per capita" accounting is somehow better than a total dollar amount? Or was that the only statistic you could find to make the USA look "evil"? More and more as I read your arguments, CS, I think you hate America as much as you hate Bush. How you slice-n-dice statistics matters because you can make anyone look "evil" with the "right" (wrong) statistic. You could also poo-poo the USA by looking at our aid as a percentage of our GNP. But the bottom line, when you don't look at it "per anyting", and instead just rely on the total dollars given (which are what ultimately buy improvements and infrastructure) you can't argue that we give more than any other nation:

Image

And I always think it is more instructive to notice which names are NOT on this list! Where are:

Russia?
China?
Saudi Arabia?

Why do I get the feeling that people who love to hate America always seem to think it is the West's job to fix everything (often because these people see the West as the causer of all problems). China is bringing in LOADS of capital these days. And giving aid to.... NO ONE (well, maybe their good buddy the Kim Jong Illin!)

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Postby I.P.Freely » Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:52 pm

Toon don,t bother some people care only about themselves
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Postby ryguy » Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:56 pm

I.P.Freely wrote:Toon don,t bother some people care only about themselves


Please elaborate. Who is this a jab toward this time?
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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:05 pm

yeah- china sucks. i have no problem with that- even though GHWB had a big affair with Deng Ho Popsicle, or whatever his name is. China is the world leader in body-part exports. That good with you? (maybe you need a kidney?) Doesn't seem to worry Dumbya. If it's good for Wal*mart, it's good for suburbia- and for you. I really wanna just tell you that you to eat shit- but this is a family site. See IPF's allusions to Jesus and take a chill-pill. You'll be OK in the morning.
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Postby ryguy » Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:08 pm

cartoonsyndicate wrote: I really wanna just tell you that you to eat s^~t- but this is a family site. See IPF's allusions to Jesus and take a chill-pill. You'll be OK in t6he morning.


That's not debate Toon - that's high-school immaturity. Consider yourself warned...for the 14th...er...15th time. I've lost count. It's the last either way - lighten up. Politics can get heated but there's no reason to take it to the gutter.

-Ry
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:27 pm

You see, CS:

As I have pointed out before, you cherry pick the easy topics and let the more difficult issues slide by, and hope no one notices. I had asked you a question about why you think "per capita" is more important than real dollars in aid.

cartoonsyndicate wrote:China is the world leader in body-part exports. That good with you? (maybe you need a kidney?) Doesn't seem to worry Dumbya. If it's good for Wal*mart, it's good for suburbia- and for you.


No, it's not good with me. But of course you need to make it look like it is all Bush's fault that China sells body parts. Yes, I am sure George gave the Chinese dicator a wink and a nod on that one. But moreover, China is the WORLD'S problem, not just America's problem. You want party polemics... it is your standard fare. But as I pointed out earlier in this thread, Clinton certainly was not doing anything to stop Walmart and China from getting all cozy, now was he? Hell, he is FROM Walmart's home state! If you could get beyond your singular hate for Bush you would see the REALITY (remember, that is what this site is about) is that politicians from BOTH sides are corrupt and do things in their interests. I am an equal-opportunity hater of greedy politicians, but at the same time I see the good that some do.

I really wanna just tell you that you to eat s^~t- but this is a family site. See IPF's allusions to Jesus and take a chill-pill. You'll be OK in the morning.


Yeah, cute. You are such a moral bastion, CS. I guess everyone here knows you are the Mother Theresa of the internet, and I am just used gum on the bottom of your shoe. I'm such a bad boy, and you are so glorious.

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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:40 pm

Ryan,

If that's you're attitude I understand. I can not be anyone other who I am. So I suppose I need to resign my RU position. It's OK. I don't blame you or Steve. I admit that I'm a misfit and I understand your intentions. I realize that I push the envelope. That I'm a pain int he ass. OK. So be it.

But I've 'enjoyed' this forum- in the philosophical sense of 'enjoyment' but I also understand that we're headed in different directions.

On the other hand (and there's always another hand) I've enjoyed my reparte here. Dialectic is the living truth and I dedicate my life to Plato. That there are other world-views, I acknowledge- but, in my opinion, they are
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:19 pm

This reply is not directed at any one person. It is simply to provide more reading material to those who are under the false impression that the US does not do anything to help people in the Middle East:

http://www.usaid.gov/wbg/faq.htm

Specific points of note:

There is a lot of talk about reforming the Palestinian Authority. Does USAID/WBG work with Palestinians on reform issues?

Yes. USAID/WBG has long supported efforts to promote transparency and good governance in Palestinian Authority operations. Specific activities directed at reform include technical and non-cash assistance to the Palestinian Legislative Council, the judiciary, select executive branch ministries and agencies, including the Ministries of Health and Economy and Trade, and independent agencies such as the Palestinian Monetary Authority and the Palestinian Water Authority. In addition, USAID/WBG funds many Palestinian civil society organizations that play a leadership role in advocating for reform and in demanding accountability in the operations of the Palestinian Authority.


And

How much is the USAID WB/G budget?
Since 1994, the regular USAID annual budget has been approximately $75 million. In 2000, the U.S. Congress provided an additional $400 million to USAID for the Palestinian people to facilitate the implementation of the Wye River Peace Accords between Israel and the Palestinian Authority. Therefore, between 1994 and 2002, USAID received approximately $1.1 billion for development assistance programs in the West Bank and Gaza. The $1.1 billion appropriated during this period constitutes the third largest amount provided by the U.S. Government for any foreign assistance program. Moreover, according to the Palestinian Authority Ministry of Planning and International Cooperation 's (MOPIC) comparative data, the U.S. is the highest disbursing bilateral donor in the West Bank and Gaza.


Perhaps part of the solution is that the "gloom-and-doom-focused media" could also report on the GOOD things the US does, instead of just where we screw up! What a NOVEL idea! The WHOLE news, not just the news that makes you think we are the bad guys!

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More paradigm-shattering REALITIES!

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:23 pm

So if the US just gave more aid, we could end poverty and world hunger, right? MYTH!

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelate ... /USAid.asp

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Re: More paradigm-shattering REALITIES!

Postby cartoonsyndicate » Mon Mar 12, 2007 9:35 pm

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:So if the US just gave more aid, we could end poverty and world hunger, right? MYTH!

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelate ... /USAid.asp

Ray


done with you. you win. cs
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Postby I.P.Freely » Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:06 am

ryguy wrote:
I.P.Freely wrote:Toon don,t bother some people care only about themselves


Please elaborate. Who is this a jab toward this time?


Well at Ray because he thinks its not our job to help others which is so wrong , its not our job its our moral duty. I don,t even see the point of haveing lots of money. There is a reason there are no luggage racks on hearses
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:11 am

I.P.Freely wrote:Well at Ray because he thinks its not our job to help others which is so wrong , its not our job its our moral duty.


There you go, putting words in my mouth. I said no such thing! I simply countered your insinuation that we either don't do anything, or don't do enough. And might I add that I backed my statements with DATA. So far, all you have relied on is emotion. Do you have some DATA to back up your claim that Islamic terrorists are all cranky just because they don't have jobs? It had better be good data too, because I can point you to PLENTY of data that their motives are much more nefarious than you seem to believe.

Let's stick to facts, and please ask me what I believe before you state it in a post to someone else. Thanks,
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Postby Max » Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:38 am

Toon, as usual you resort to the last refuge of the scoundrel when backed into a corner. Your usual MO is to post lengthy posts full of BS which has nothing to do with the subject matter in an attempt to overwhelm the other person. But whenever the other person doesn't take your bait and instead replies with factual coherent data, you start to insult and say "I'm done you win" I ought to tell you to eat s#*t! I've been there and done that with you. God certainly gave you a good mind, then you programmed it with microsoft-reject software, but your main problem is you need to start acting like an adult instead of a pouting and hysterical child.
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Postby I.P.Freely » Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:21 am

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:
I.P.Freely wrote:Well at Ray because he thinks its not our job to help others which is so wrong , its not our job its our moral duty.


There you go, putting words in my mouth. I said no such thing! I simply countered your insinuation that we either don't do anything, or don't do enough. And might I add that I backed my statements with DATA. So far, all you have relied on is emotion. Do you have some DATA to back up your claim that Islamic terrorists are all cranky just because they don't have jobs? It had better be good data too, because I can point you to PLENTY of data that their motives are much more nefarious than you seem to believe.

Let's stick to facts, and please ask me what I believe before you state it in a post to someone else. Thanks,
Ray


no problem I,ll try to remember sorry
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Postby cartoonsyndicate » Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:04 pm

Max wrote:Toon, as usual you resort to the last refuge of the scoundrel when backed into a corner. Your usual MO is to post lengthy posts full of BS which has nothing to do with the subject matter in an attempt to overwhelm the other person. But whenever the other person doesn't take your bait and instead replies with factual coherent data, you start to insult and say "I'm done you win" I ought to tell you to eat s#*t! I've been there and done that with you. God certainly gave you a good mind, then you programmed it with microsoft-reject software, but your main problem is you need to start acting like an adult instead of a pouting and hysterical child.


When I said I was done arguing with Ray what I meant was that we, two, have
irreconcilable points of view and that the argument is meaningless since no resolution is possible. For that reason it will inevitably devolve into a meandering pissing contest that I don't choose to engage in. And as for 'the last refuge of scoundrels,' I believe Sam Johnson was referring to 'patriotism' in that aphorism. So, in that spirit, I'd advise you to look for the log in your own eye.

cs

For an excellent analysis of the state of Pax Americana I strongly recommend this essay from the February 26th edition of The American Conservative:

http://www.amconmag.com/2007/2007_02_26/feature.html

It's too long to post here but well worth reading. Maybe this discussion can continue in light of the points raised by Michael Vlahos in this wonderful piece.
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