Trying to use Science to spin a political agenda!

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Trying to use Science to spin a political agenda!

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:54 pm

Just a few more resources to study hypocrisy and the global warming doomsday cult. First let's enjoy another example of Gore's hipocrisy:

http://www.skepticism.net/articles/2002/000052.html

And the following page from the above site has quite a lot of good reading about the issue:

http://www.skepticism.net/faq/environme ... l_warming/

An older, but no less relevant, National Policy Analysis (note this was prior to the big, bad George W Bush coming to power):

http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA203.html

There's two sides to every analysis, and right now I just see a huge push by environmental groups to drown-out the side that they don't like. But wait, there's more!

Would anyone like to see some data that show, in the long run, that it is more environmentally friendly to drive a Hummer than a Toyota Prius? Have a read:

http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editoria ... NewsID=188

Ray
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Live Earth - What did it really accomplish?

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:15 pm

I must admit that I watched some of the Live Earth coverage on Saturday. But I was not watching because I liked many (any?) of the performers, and I wasn't silly enough to think that my watching was going to somehow magically reduce greenhouse gases. No, I guess I was watching for a more cynical reason: To spot hypocrisy and those "feel good statements" that famous folk love to issue to make you believe they are "doing what it takes" (which to them amounts to performing their music, and getting publicity, for free).

One question that immediately came to mind that should be answered (but doubt that it would be) is: What is the "carbon footprint" of all of these Live Earth concert activities? In between concert snippets on the satellite feed they had short segments from artists either decrying the state our globe is in, gloom and doom predictions for our future, or "helpful hints" as to how we can all (except the elite) do our part to lower greenhouse gases and minimize our "carbon footprints". Two of these suggestions sounded OK, but I would actually like to see the wealthy, elite, and famous tracked to see how often they would abide by them:

1) "Don't fly somewhere unless it is absolutely necessary." Here it is the definition of "absolutely necessary" that I am sure would be at loggerheads between "normal folk" and the "social elite".

2) Use public transportation as much as you can (i.e. that means no limos and giant suburbans chock full of your personal security detail). I honestly wonder how many of the "social elite" would ever even consider taking this action? Oh but they are happy to do a "public service announcement" telling the "common folk" how important it is for them to do so.

Finally, here is an interesting article I found this morning in my RSS feed that came to me just because my company's name is in it. Highlights are mine (and for your enjoyment):

July 10, 2007
Pretoria News
© Copyright 2007 Independent Newspapers (UK) Limited. All rights reserved.
Madonna provided the finale to Saturday?s Live Earth concerts, even writing a special song to mark the worldwide musical event.

But instead of being lionised, she found herself accused of hypocrisy after allegations that she has financial links to some of the world?s biggest polluters.

The Ray of Light Foundation (no relation to the critic of this event!), a charitable fund established by the star to support her favourite causes and named after one of her biggest selling hits, has $4.2 billion (about R29 million) of shares in a string of companies including Alcoa, the American aluminium giant, the Ford Motor Company and Weyerhäuser, an international forest products company.

All have been criticised by environmentalists.

Alcoa was ranked No 9 on a list of all-time toxic companies drawn up by the University of Massachusetts? political research institute in 2002.


Other companies linked to the foundation, including Northrop Grumman, the global defence and technology giant, and Kimberly-Clark, the health group, appear on the same list. (RH Note: It does not say my company, Northrop-Grumman, has been criticised by environmentalists, only that it is linked to her foundation... but perhaps they are hoping for "guilt by association"?)

The disclosure was made by the US? Fox News network, which obtained the foundation?s most recent tax returns for 2005.

News of Madonna?s links to the companies are an embarrassment to Live Earth?s organisers, who were also forced to defend themselves against accusations that they had overstated the extent to which man has contributed towards climate change and that the organisation of the Wembley Stadium event was flawed.
(RH Note: What??? You mean to say they exaggerated? Over-stated? Hard to believe publicists could EVER be guilty of such a thing!)


Defending Madonna, Kevin Wall, the founder of Live Earth, said at the weekend: ?I didn?t see the Fox News report, but Madonna is here today, which shows her commitment.

?We?re not focusing on what she or any of the artists may have done in their past; it is about the future. Whatever is being said, I know that her commitment to this cause runs deep.

?She is performing for free and has written a new song for us, which show that.? (RH Note: Yeah, she just gives until it hurts, huh?)

Madonna (48) brought to a close the last of eight concerts on seven continents, which began in Antarctica early on Saturday morning. As well as performing the specially written Hey You, she sang three of her biggest hits: Hung Up, La Isla Bonita and, paradoxically, Ray of Light.

She declined to comment on the Fox News report.

Earlier, music stars including Genesis, Snow Patrol and Razorlight performed to a crowd of 65 000 people.

Many admitted that they had attended purely for the music, not the cause.

Other featured acts were Keane, the Black Eyed Peas, Duran Duran and James Blunt.

Nick du Rocher (40), an insurance broker from Lewisham, south-east London, said: ?I?m only here to see the bands.

?I think Bob Geldof was absolutely right when he said people are already aware of global warming and a concert is not going to make any difference.?

Carol Mayzes (41), from Bexley, Kent, said: ?I?m going to sound really hypocritical, but my family and I are here for the Red Hot Chili Peppers and we are not really bothered about climate change.?

Among the crowd at Wembley were actress Jamie Lee Curtis and music stars Liam Gallagher and Geri Halliwell.

The global event began in Sydney with a traditional Aboriginal welcome.

Crowded House, Jack Johnson and Toni Collette, the star of Muriel?s Wedding, were among those who took part.

Concerts followed in Japan, South Africa, China, Germany, Britain and the US, with more than 150 acts performing in all.

One of the most unusual offerings came from the band Nunatak, comprising five British scientists, who performed live from Antarctica.

Harvey Goldsmith, who helped to organise the event, said: ?It?s important to remember that the concerts are just the starting point.

?We have taken all possible steps to ensure that each of the Live Earth concerts is as green as possible.? (RH Note: It would be nice to see an accounting of these steps, wouldn't it?)

Wall insisted: ?To all the sceptics who say a concert can?t make a change, I?d say look at all the other concerts held that had a huge impact on important issues. (RH Note: I would consider it as having a huge impact when I see celebrities cutting back on their "needs", like owning their own business jets!)

?It worked for anti-apartheid, it worked for Live Aid and Live 8, it worked for Amnesty International. And this is bigger than any of them, so don?t tell me it won?t work.?

The BBC, meanwhile, found itself under attack for devoting more than 11 hours of television to covering the event while failing to represent the views of those who question the existence of global warming and its causes.

Within two hours of the concert?s start, the corporation was also forced to apologise for the bad language used by some performers.


Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a good concert. But I do not wrap my enjoyment of artist endeavors in some politically-correct flag or cause, nor do I expect people's live to be changed just because ultra-wealthy entertainers give a performance or two for free.

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Re: Trying to use Science to spin a political agenda!

Postby wetsystems » Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:31 pm

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:Just a few more resources to study hypocrisy and the global warming doomsday cult. First let's enjoy another example of Gore's hipocrisy:

http://www.skepticism.net/articles/2002/000052.html

And the following page from the above site has quite a lot of good reading about the issue:

http://www.skepticism.net/faq/environme ... l_warming/

An older, but no less relevant, National Policy Analysis (note this was prior to the big, bad George W Bush coming to power):

http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA203.html

There's two sides to every analysis, and right now I just see a huge push by environmental groups to drown-out the side that they don't like. But wait, there's more!

Would anyone like to see some data that show, in the long run, that it is more environmentally friendly to drive a Hummer than a Toyota Prius? Have a read:

http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editoria ... NewsID=188

Ray


Yes, but Ray- what of this by DOD? http://www.grist.org/pdf/AbruptClimateChange2003.pdf
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Re: Trying to use Science to spin a political agenda!

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:48 pm

wetsystems wrote:Yes, but Ray- what of this by DOD? http://www.grist.org/pdf/AbruptClimateChange2003.pdf


Instead of trolling, why don't you spell out your issue, Toon? I've read the report before. You do realize that our government pays people to study potential future threats to national security? And before you continue your trolling, would you like to probe and find out precisely what my issue is? Because I can lay a wager that you have no clue, but your are probably more than willing to try and pin something on me that I do not believe or subscribe to.

So again, rather than trolling for controversy (a specialty of yours), make some specific points about what you think I think, and I will either refute them or agree. And allow me to point out two pertinent quotes from your source:

In this report, as an alternative to the scenarios of gradual climatic warming that are so common, we outline an abrupt climate change scenario patterned after the 100-year event that occurred about 8,200 years ago.


Can you please show me where this study concludes that mankind's activities are the primary reason for the scenario they outline? Indeed, the above shows it may very well be a natural cycle the earth has seen before.

and
While future weather patterns and the specific details of abrupt climate change cannot be predicted accurately or with great assurance, the actual history of climate change provides some useful guides. Our goal is merely to portray a plausible scenario, similar to one which has already occurred in human experieince, for which there is reasonable evidence so that we may further explore potential implications for United States national security.


As I say, we are smart to pay people to study future threats. That's just good analytical science, along with the Boy Scout creed "Be Prepared". And yes, I was a Boy Scout.

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Postby I.P.Freely » Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:25 pm

well Ray lets just hope your right and your grandkids don,t to curse us all someday. I to was boyscout too and remeber in my troop we were taught to leave things better then the way we found them. So how can it be wrong to plant the seeds in peoples minds that maybe someday may grow into actions that lead to the same thing. Because if you really think about it the current actions of humans on this planet is simular to a cancer. This planet would not suffer if we were not here.
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:05 pm

Hello IPF,

I.P.Freely wrote:well Ray lets just hope your right and your grandkids don,t to curse us all someday. I to was boyscout too and remeber in my troop we were taught to leave things better then the way we found them. So how can it be wrong to plant the seeds in peoples minds that maybe someday may grow into actions that lead to the same thing.


It seems quite clear to me that you are missing my point. My point is related to political spin, and hypocrisy (this is the politics forum) as being useful tactics for people to tell others what THEY have to do, but continue to believe they are "elite" and "exempt". Let me state a few things for the record:

1) I installed a 3.3KW peak solar power system on my roof in SoCal well before this stuff became "chic and popular" (i.e. 2002).
2) On an annualized basis, I actually generate more (clean) power than I consume... and I own a pool, and pool owners know how much pool filters suck energy.
3) My primary commute car is a Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) Honda GX. This is MORE "green" than a hybrid because it does not have the toxic battery manufacture/disposal problems, and its emissions are actually cleaner than the air is sucks in from our famous SoCal smog!!! :shock:
4) I am currently designing (and will soon begin building) a ranch in SW Colorado. It will incorporate a larger solar array in addition to a battery bank and a wind turbine. Hopefully, all of these along with computerized sensing and switching will allow me to live totally off the grid and self-sufficient for my energy needs (except for a propane tank for winter heating).

As I say, I have been concerned about my own "carbon footprint" and avoiding waste for a lot longer than it has been "chic". That is because I am an engineer thru and thru. I simply challege (nay, may I DEMAND?) others to walk the walk. And because my "house is clean" (and green) I do not suffer hypocrisy in pointing out other people's hypocrisy.

Because if you really think about it the current actions of humans on this planet is simular to a cancer. This planet would not suffer if we were not here.


So are you going to be the first one to leave, or commit hari-kari to protect the planet? :) We are part of the planetary system. To take the simple approach of "the planet would be better off without us" overlooks the possibility that our sentience, awareness, and evolution could serve a larger purpose in the cosmological system we call the universe. ANY form of life which consumes energy could be considered a "cancer" if you set the right system context. Indeed, is not our earth a "cancer" sucking energy from the sun? ;)

I think I understand your point, IPF. But now do you understand mine?

On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.
-- Boy Scout Oath


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Re: Trying to use Science to spin a political agenda!

Postby wetsystems » Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:07 pm

no post
Last edited by wetsystems on Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Postby wetsystems » Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:14 pm

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:Hello IPF,

I.P.Freely wrote:well Ray lets just hope your right and your grandkids don,t to curse us all someday. I to was boyscout too and remeber in my troop we were taught to leave things better then the way we found them. So how can it be wrong to plant the seeds in peoples minds that maybe someday may grow into actions that lead to the same thing.


It seems quite clear to me that you are missing my point. My point is related to political spin, and hypocrisy (this is the politics forum) as being useful tactics for people to tell others what THEY have to do, but continue to believe they are "elite" and "exempt". Let me state a few things for the record:

1) I installed a 3.3KW peak solar power system on my roof in SoCal well before this stuff became "chic and popular" (i.e. 2002).
2) On an annualized basis, I actually generate more (clean) power than I consume... and I own a pool, and pool owners know how much pool filters suck energy.
3) My primary commute car is a Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) Honda GX. This is MORE "green" than a hybrid because it does not have the toxic battery manufacture/disposal problems, and its emissions are actually cleaner than the air is sucks in from our famous SoCal smog!!! :shock:
4) I am currently designing (and will soon begin building) a ranch in SW Colorado. It will incorporate a larger solar array in addition to a battery bank and a wind turbine. Hopefully, all of these along with computerized sensing and switching will allow me to live totally off the grid and self-sufficient for my energy needs (except for a propane tank for winter heating).

As I say, I have been concerned about my own "carbon footprint" and avoiding waste for a lot longer than it has been "chic". That is because I am an engineer thru and thru. I simply challege (nay, may I DEMAND?) others to walk the walk. And because my "house is clean" (and green) I do not suffer hypocrisy in pointing out other people's hypocrisy.

Because if you really think about it the current actions of humans on this planet is simular to a cancer. This planet would not suffer if we were not here.


So are you going to be the first one to leave, or commit hari-kari to protect the planet? :) We are part of the planetary system. To take the simple approach of "the planet would be better off without us" overlooks the possibility that our sentience, awareness, and evolution could serve a larger purpose in the cosmological system we call the universe. ANY form of life which consumes energy could be considered a "cancer" if you set the right system context. Indeed, is not our earth a "cancer" sucking energy from the sun? ;)

I think I understand your point, IPF. But now do you understand mine?

On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.
-- Boy Scout Oath


Ray


I simply challege (nay, may I DEMAND?) others to walk the walk.


No, you may not demand anything. But thanks for your diligence. We all ought to be doing what you're doing.
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Postby wetsystems » Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:30 pm

I am currently designing (and will soon begin building) a ranch in SW Colorado.


I'm intimately familiar with southwest Colorado. The people here are already living the right life. The last thing we need are new dilettante ranchers with hi-tech gadgets. The people of rural Colorado already know how to live well with the land.
Do it in New York.
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:37 pm

wetsystems wrote:
I am currently designing (and will soon begin building) a ranch in SW Colorado.


I'm intimately familiar with southwest Colorado. The people here are already living the right life. The last thing we need are new dilettante ranchers with hi-tech gadgets. The people of rural Colorado already know how to live well with the land.
Do it in New York.


How about you mind your own Fing business, Toon? Or wait... allow me to use your favorite phrase "why don't you just fish on your side of the lake?" And that lake would be McPhee Reservoir.

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Postby wetsystems » Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:38 pm

It i not possible to encourage despoliation and conservation at the same time. You can't have it both ways.
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Postby wetsystems » Tue Jul 10, 2007 10:39 pm

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:
wetsystems wrote:
I am currently designing (and will soon begin building) a ranch in SW Colorado.


I'm intimately familiar with southwest Colorado. The people here are already living the right life. The last thing we need are new dilettante ranchers with hi-tech gadgets. The people of rural Colorado already know how to live well with the land.
Do it in New York.


How about you mind your own Fing business, Toon? Or wait... allow me to use your favorite phrase "why don't you just fish on your side of the lake?" And that lake would be McPhee Reservoir.

Ray


Fing? I think you're melting down.
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Re: Trying to use Science to spin a political agenda!

Postby wetsystems » Tue Jul 10, 2007 11:08 pm

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:
wetsystems wrote:Yes, but Ray- what of this by DOD? http://www.grist.org/pdf/AbruptClimateChange2003.pdf


Instead of trolling, why don't you spell out your issue, Toon? I've read the report before. You do realize that our government pays people to study potential future threats to national security?

And yes, I was a Boy Scout.

Ray


Great to know you were a Boyscout! Hopefully yo were protected from the predators!

Actually I do understand that the government pays people to do these kinds of studies- as well they should. I ask this- why would you dismiss the conclusions?

Trolling?? Here's my issue: the human race has become a virus on the body of the Gaia. Out of control consumption is destroying the planet. The government knows this as do all sentient beings.

And exactly how does this make me troll?
And I should remark that I am saving my insults for Toon for "just the right time" when I will strike at his soft, white underbelly for maximum damage and humiliation. Ray Hudson 2007
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Re: Trying to use Science to spin a political agenda!

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Wed Jul 11, 2007 3:18 am

wetsystems wrote:Actually I do understand that the government pays people to do these kinds of studies- as well they should. I ask this- why would you dismiss the conclusions?


What makes you believe I do dismiss the conclusions? (Please answer this, as I do not enjoy when people presume things about me and do not answer my questions to them). In fact, I am in 100% support of all 7 of the report's recommendations.

Trolling?? Here's my issue: the human race has become a virus on the body of the Gaia. Out of control consumption is destroying the planet. The government knows this as do all sentient beings.


And change requires action. So I ask you: What are you doing about it besides stating the obvious on forums? I've told you what I am doing, and the point I am making in this thread is that I take it further in holding the "social elites" accountable for their hypocrisy (and I can do so with a clean, green conscience).

And exactly how does this make me troll?


1) You make pronoucements where you seem to think you know who I am, what my issues are, and what I stand for. You don't. I know you like to think you do, but you don't. Exhibit: Your comments about me and my retirement project in Dolores/McPhee. You know nothing of my background or what I wish to achieve with this project.
2) You "throw out" this DoD study without giving me any specific items you wish to know my opinion on. Based on your past actions (in your current and past incarnation), it is evident you enjoy starting controversy (wherever you can) and hijacking threads. Exhibit: This thread is about political spin and hypocrisy (I should know, I started it). And yet you wish to hijack it and try to paint me as either a person who ignores climate change or a person who is wasteful...neither of which is true.
3) You take people's words out of context (and avoid quoting them so you can change the perceived context), and present an interpretation that is clearly opposite of their intention (that others were able to discern) presumably as a vehicle to start controversy (again).
4) You arrogantly claim to know what other people are about without taking them time to ask them, and then on top of it you belittle them and put them down with your high-brow philosophy.

These are enough for me to conclude that the majority of the actions you take (at least here) are troll-like. I speak for myself, and no one else. But I might guess that at least one or two others here could possibly think similarly to me on this issue.

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Re: Trying to use Science to spin a political agenda!

Postby Access Denied » Wed Jul 11, 2007 4:58 am

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:These are enough for me to conclude that the majority of the actions you take (at least here) are troll-like. I speak for myself, and no one else. But I might guess that at least one or two others here could possibly think similarly to me on this issue.

Nailed it. :D

Ray, you clearly wrote that definition with toon specifically in mind but with a few minor substitutions it applies perfectly to SO many others I've encountered on the net, well done! Mind if I use it? :)

[must not feed the trolls, must not feed the trolls]

Anyway, with regards to what has Paris Hilton done for me lately… hmm I’ll have to let you know when I figure it out.

Man v. Nature?

Dinosaurs: 0
Nature: 1

Odds are we’ll wipe ourselves out long before we get a chance to put any kind of significant dent in the Earth's abilty to heal itself… that is assuming Nature doesn’t have any surprises of her own in store for us.

Fear mongering politicians and elite activists notwithstanding, as long as we practice common sense, exercise due caution, and keep enough Scientists on the payroll, we should be fine.

Wait, what was I thinking… we’re doomed!!! :shock:
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