Is ATS going soft? Lost the plot?

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Postby Springer » Sat Oct 20, 2007 10:47 pm

ryguy wrote:
Springer wrote:The MEMBERSHIP DRIVES THE CONTENT.


That does make sense guys...it goes along with my current running theory that probably about 85% of the population of the world is somewhat delusional and susceptible to falling for the addictive enjoyment of sensationalism. The sane, logical, and scientific folks (with little-to-no interest in sensationalistic nonsense) are becoming vastly outnumbered... As Mark points out with the ATS stats - ATS is living proof of that.

In effect...we are now the "freaks", my friends. They, the delusional, are becoming the "sane". Welcome to the "best possible world". LOL

-Ry


I totally agree with Ry here.

We are spending money on a genuine TOP Level Research Project through a grant to a prestigious Med School/University to hopefully get some solid data on this bizarre situation in the hope of finding ways to stem or counter the meme disease.

People like Lear and sleeper are NOT part of the problem, they don't sell anything or even ask for anyone's belief. We know who the "problem type" are all too well.

It's when people like Chorlton (and the ones who have gone before him) ASSUME the most ridiculous things about us, then spew their misguided tripe to all that will listen that I get disgusted. These utterly ignorant of the facts type have no clue what we are doing or, more importantly, what it takes to do it.

Thus we have dozens of forums... You won't find the speculative/"crazy" stuff getting any traction in the scientific forums on ATS. UFOs and Aliens is HARDLY a scientific forum. :lol:

It's all about hoping to expose those who are wide eyed "True Believers" to the realities as much as possible.

Calling them names and disrespecting them for enjoying a flight of fancy WILL NOT get you far. ;)

Anyway...

S...
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Postby Chorlton » Sun Oct 21, 2007 9:45 am

Springer wrote:I totally agree with Ry here.
...

So by agreeing to:
"In effect...we are now the "freaks", my friends. They, the delusional, are becoming the "sane". Welcome to the "best possible world"."

You are in effect backing up my statements all along. You say one thing here, and the complete opposite on ATS

We are spending money on a genuine TOP Level Research Project through a grant to a prestigious Med School/University to hopefully get some solid data on this bizarre situation in the hope of finding ways to stem or counter the meme disease.
...

Whilst encouraging it to get the money to do it and discouraging genuine sceptics? Wait a minute whilst I hit myself with another 5 inch pole
...
People like Lear and sleeper are NOT part of the problem, they don't sell anything or even ask for anyone's belief. We know who the "problem type" are all too well.
...


But in the respect of your 'common or garden' poster, they ARE a problem because they are given more leeway to post hoaxes and shamanisms and when anyone dares to question them they get slapped. So in effect what you are saying is that, in your personal search for the truth, you are going to attack and deny the Truth Seekers?

...
It's when people like Chorlton (and the ones who have gone before him) ASSUME the most ridiculous things about us, then spew their misguided tripe to all that will listen that I get disgusted. These utterly ignorant of the facts type have no clue what we are doing or, more importantly, what it takes to do it.
...


Firstly I didnt "spew their misguided tripe to all that will listen" to anyone on ATS at all. Please point me to the post where I even intimated as much.

Secondly, unlike YOU, *I* dont ASSUME anything dear boy, and theres one of your biggest problems. You dont know me or my history and would probably be a bit surprised if you even knew who I was. I dont assume anything. Ive learned to judge people by their actions. I judged you by your actions towards me and others like me. I even ignored many of the stories I was told about you, preferring to make up my own mind. But to me you come over as a total control freak who laps up the adoration thrown out by the 'believers", "You do what I say or you dont play with my football" and that logic, for a website is totally insane.
If you have these altrustic motives as mentioned above why dont you tell people? why dont you explain to sceptics that there might be another agenda and to maybe back off a little? Whilst I am an incredibly handsome, modest and versatile person :oops: , I havent yet learned to mindread, nor do you have many 'lines' for people like me to 'read between'
However, you are now moving the goalposts in an attempt to take the higher ground.
Im talking about floor level posters here, nothing altruistic.
Please explain what you think I 'assume', by what I have posted.
Here is what I consider to be facts, not assumptions. For 'You' read 'ATS'
You encourage and protect the loonies, the fruitcakes. Thats a a Fact
You have a certain 'elite' who are given far more leeway than others in abuse. Thats a Fact.
You encourage the 'Cult of ATS and the 'Cult of the 3'
You dislike sceptics who speak their mind
You have many sockpuppets

...
Thus we have dozens of forums... You won't find the speculative/"crazy" stuff getting any traction in the scientific forums on ATS. UFOs and Aliens is HARDLY a scientific forum. :lol:
...

But we arent talking about those forums. I have great respect for a lot of the people who post in those other forums, however what is being discussed here are the main ATS forums that I had direct experience of and those forumsthat you chose to 'judge me' by. Please dont try sleight of hand.
...
It's all about hoping to expose those who are wide eyed "True Believers" to the realities as much as possible.
...

But thats an out and out lie. I said EXACTLY THE SAME THING using pretty much exactly the same words in a Lear thread and was slapped down by you for doing so.
But on ATS I dont see any exposing the True Believers to the realities at all. In fact you openly discourage it as was seen by your childish sarcastic comments to me and AD on the Hologram thread when you questioned 'why were we on a thread that we totally disbelieved in.
...
Calling them names and disrespecting them for enjoying a flight of fancy WILL NOT get you far. ;)
...

Why do I think you can only see one side of the story here?. You allow the believers to disrespect and call sceptics names and get away with it yet slap down the sceptics for doing just what you have mentioned above.

Anyway...... we lost the bloody Rugby :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
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Postby ryguy » Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:46 pm

Cripes...I was only being sarcastic, which obviously didn't convey well electronically.

Spidey senses are now tingling... This is fascinating. Time to do some writing this morning. I hope y'all don't mind - but I've had two cups of Java and the brain-juices are flowing well this morning, a few interesting connections are clicking into place, possibly...

Beware, long post ahead. So grab yourself a cup of coffee, sit back, and enjoy.

Chorlton wrote:
Springer wrote:We are spending money on a genuine TOP Level Research Project through a grant to a prestigious Med School/University to hopefully get some solid data on this bizarre situation in the hope of finding ways to stem or counter the meme disease.
...


Whilst encouraging it to get the money to do it and discouraging genuine sceptics? Wait a minute whilst I hit myself with another 5 inch pole



Interesting. Now, I can actually fathom how a researcher might consider a number of various methods in order to conduct tests for a hypothesis - but this one has a bit of a twist to it.

As I understand the statement above from Springer:

Hypothesis: An idea or set of ideas have been unleashed against the population of the world, which spreads like a virus: ideas that replicate and evolve and infects like the common cold - over time making the infected person become very sick - most often mentally but often physically and in terms of well-being as well.

This infection was started with intent by a particular entity or group for a malicious or malevolent purpose.


...
People like Lear and sleeper are NOT part of the problem, they don't sell anything or even ask for anyone's belief. We know who the "problem type" are all too well.
...


This statement represents a solid and firm belief system. Not "We believe", or "We think", but "We know". This begs two obvious questions which aren't likely to be answered any time soon - "Who is we?" and "Who are the 'problem type' then?" But...the answer won't come before the funding flows. So let's not worry about specifics and take a look at this fascinating hypothesis.

And in doing so - I propose an additional hypothesis....that the hypothesis above is a viral meme in and of itself. Watch closely.

In July 2007 Colin Bennett wrote in Meme Wars (my emphasis):

"In this sense, science can indeed be viewed as one big advertising system, selling "fact" as ruthlessly as others sell SERPO and CHAD stories. That science is a culture amongst other cultures is not taught as such. It should be. Anything which controls us in this sense is deeply political."

"Control of images means of course control of individual and collective imagination, which is the final objective of all image-based suggestion systems. Once that is achieved, political of control of time and thought, identity and action follow, and we feel "God" as a monkey sees and feels a hot water bottle as its loving mother. This illusion enables the creature to grow as much as does a packet full of "facts:" they are both equally as effective in operation. One is not "false" and the other "true" so much as both are different kinds of psychological management system, some more pleasant than others. "

"SERPO and CHAD are examples of products of the first generation of ruthless cyber mythologists. They are both performance memes. Using such elements Web technology has now reached a state where it possible to create a wholly new and very different kind of politics. This view represents the modelling and application of many different kinds of belief-manipulation systems in terms of control of different kinds of operational mythologies. These are somewhat plastic entities, just like CHAD and SERPO. As in molecular biology, mythologies can be designed and constructed as experimental platforms for all kinds of purposes. As such, they can be developed, applied, and managed as regards the design of any particular manipulation, the result being a world almost complete in itself. "

"In the case of SERPO and CHAD the purpose is to test belief systems as one would test an electronic circuit. In the previous literary world (now gone from us as Nineveh and Tyre) before cyber, this kind of thing was known as "faction." Given Web power, this has now become mythological engineering of a kind we have not seen before. The designers are interested in launching a Matrix-style information meme in order to form new patterns and programmes of belief-manipulation gaming. We should not be deceived; SERPO was a very crude prototype, CHAD, by comparison is a very advanced multi-media operation, and it is highly probable that there is much more of this kind of thing to come. "


From the above, we should pay close attention to Colin's important points:

- Using such elements Web technology has now reached a state where it possible to create a wholly new and very different kind of politics.
- This view represents the modelling and application of many different kinds of belief-manipulation systems in terms of control of different kinds of operational mythologies.
- Mythologies can be designed and constructed as experimental platforms for all kinds of purposes.

Read that last item two or three times and let it sink in.

More from our friend Springer:
...
These utterly ignorant of the facts type have no clue what we are doing or, more importantly, what it takes to do it.
...


This statement reflects a certain amount of altruism that comes from a long-term and difficult effort conducted under a certain amount of secrecy. Secrecy is very difficult when you believe you are doing something for the good of mankind, and in the back of your mind, you can't help but wonder if after all of the effort, you may very well never get any credit for your work. The root fear of every fringe Scientist I suppose...

But it also reflects the reality that "they" are certainly doing "something", of which the public is unaware of both what it is, and what "it takes to do it."

...
It's all about hoping to expose those who are wide eyed "True Believers" to the realities as much as possible.
...


Which realities would be referred to here? Have we come to a place where we all agree on a reality that the "True Believers" should be exposed to? It appears that at least a few people have - it is now with hope that they expose "True Believers" to that reality. As you can see from the recent debate between Ray and I in the Spirituality thread, even friends who agree on much - often find disagreement when it comes down to the core beliefs regarding reality. So when you find someone convinced that they own such a perfect awareness of something that their personal awareness can be used as an "antidote" for the beliefs of others - you've got yourself a situation where lots of alarm bells should be going off like crazy.

Why do I think you can only see one side of the story here?. You allow the believers to disrespect and call sceptics names and get away with it yet slap down the sceptics for doing just what you have mentioned above.


Chorlton - when a scientist is conducting experiments with Rats in a maze, they don't appreciate other scientists coming along and attempting to show those Rats the way out....catch my drift?

To the Scientist(s) testing various methods upon the Rats - the rats choose the wrong path at their own peril:

From Springer, on this forum, 2006:

"When the FACTS, REALITY and LOGIC are ignored it is at the Ignorants' peril, BUT, that's their prerogative. "

December 07, 2006

ryguy wrote:

It's a fascinating idea...that a story, idea, or "meme" could make otherwise psychologically healthy people psychologically "sick". In fact...if that were ever proven true...I wonder how the government might view and use such a powerful phenomenon...

-Ry


VERY GOOD topic and great post! I have seen, over the years, MANY otherwise intelligent, polite, rational, considerate and caring human beings turn into ravenous vipers spewing forth "flames" in the form of typed words that they would not dream of saying to another person in the "real world".

This "Digital Ego" that develops is a genuine and VERY REAL phenomena, it's simply undeniable. It appears this ego develops because as the person interacts in cyber space the person builds "relationships" with other people and possibly becomes part of a "cyber-community" (like this one or the countless others out there).

Within the community everyone wants to be respected, listened to, liked, and accepted. When conflict arises the lack of physical presence seems to obscure our natural inhibitions, in other words, people get much more emotional in their responses, even vicious. We've all seen people get into "flame wars" where the insults and derogatory comments are beyond the bounds of polite society. In other words, we've all seen people act out on the internet in ways they never act in the "real world" thus indicating a very real, very different and separate ego within the same person.

The Digital Ego can become a powerful element in some people and I suspect it plays a major roll in this "Viral Meme" concept.

A very simple definition of Delusion is the concrete belief in something that is not real at the expense of things that are real.

The cyber interactions one experiences in forums like this for example are certainly real. The "digital" and "separate" ego one develops by interacting with people in cyber space is certainly real. Could the Digital Ego overpower the "Natural Ego"?

If the digital ego believes something whole heartedly because within its environment of existence (cyber space) the thing it believes in is real, is that delusion?

I would think that "medically speaking" it is delusion, but it seems to me the natural ego must still be "in there" and might be reached if one knew how to diminish the effect of the digital ego.

We are contemplating some research into this area to see if my hypothesis on the "D-Ego" has any merit.

In any case, following the viral meme theory and connecting it with the digital ego theory seems a logical path to take IMHO...


Springer...



Addendum to the above alleged hypothesis - The Viral Memes, as described, may have more or less effect (more or less immunity) upon individuals with stronger, or weaker, D-Ego (must test hypothesis)

How do you test such a hypothesis? Well...let's see what the scientific method suggests...

http://www.clarion.edu/academic/adeptt/bpcluster/humans.htm

In addition to limiting the number of variables that can change, scientists usually form at least two groups of subjects participating in the experiment. Usually there is one group that has all variables held constant or is left unchanged during the experiment and it is called the control group. The other group(s) receive changes in the manipulated variable; it is called the experimental group. During the course of the experiment, some feature in the system is examined and/or measured for responses and it is called the independent or measured variable.

Measurements are made and then recorded. Sometimes, the information called data is organized into graphs, tables, and/or charts. This enables scientists to view the data in such a way that trends, patterns, or relationships are easier to detect. When scientists are performing experiments they use deductive reasoning. General conditions are applied to the system under study and then specific outcomes are measured.

[snip...]

II. HOW DO SCIENTISTS CONTINUE EXPERIMENTATION?

In order to perform more experiments, scientists require money for reagents, supplies, equipment and salaries for personnel. A variety of agencies exist that supply money for scientific experimentation. Granting agencies include those in the public and private sectors. Public agencies are sponsored by local, state, and federal government programs. Privately funded research includes corporations, foundations, and trusts. To obtain the necessary funding, scientists will often write grant proposals which include various parts: a background and significance of the experiments proposed, a description of the experiments to be performed with a timeline for completion, and a budget and justification for items and personnel required for or to conduct the experiments. If the experiments involve the use of animal or human subjects then appropriate justification and additional explanations are required.

The approval process for grant proposals is very similar to the review process for publication of books and papers in scientific journals. Peer scientists review the proposals and score them based on a variety of criteria. Proposals with the highest merit are forwarded to the next level, usually administrators who work with the authors of the proposal to fine tune budgetary items. Once this level is passed, the proposal receives approval for funding and the money is awarded for the proposed experiments.

In the U.S. and other countries as well, public granting agencies will announce which proposals were awarded money for experiments. In this way, the public is given access to the ways in which tax dollars are spent. Certain groups of people tend to be more vigilant about these matters and they may alert activist groups about the funding of certain proposals. Discussions or hearings over public awards have been known to occur especially if the health and welfare of certain vulnerable populations are involved. The point is that science does not occur in the laboratory only. Experiments and projects can directly or indirectly affect peoples' lives as well as public policy.

III. HOW ARE HUMAN SUBJECTS USED IN RESEARCH?

As mentioned previously, if human or animal subjects are to be used in experiments, scientists must usually receive approval before any experimentation is done. The only exception to this would be privately funded research. Any publicly funded work using human subjects must have preliminary approval by a local body called the Institutional Review Board (IRB). The National Institutes of Health provide guidelines for IRBs.

Research involving human subjects can be divided into two major groups: those projects investigating human behaviors and those involving drug testing. For drug testing, research involving humans is preceded by studies conducted in animals (and this requires approval also). These studies are called preclinical trials and they are usually aimed at determining effectiveness, dosage, toxicity/side effects of the drug being tested before using it in humans. These same parameters are then examined in the different phases of clinical trials in humans.


Again...from Springer:

We are spending money on a genuine TOP Level Research Project through a grant to a prestigious Med School/University to hopefully get some solid data on this bizarre situation in the hope of finding ways to stem or counter the meme disease.


The following was posted by Caryn in July 2007 (the comment below is from one of Starstream/Caryn's gov. scientific sources:

Keep in mind this is raw material, not the actual story, beginning with a few excerpts taken from leaked email messages:

"You were correct that my interest is not specifically in [xxxx]. My interest in temporarily removing [xxxx] from the plot is to test whether another actor will fill the role. Dan had commented several months back that the story might have created [xxxx] rather than the other way around.

Indeed your viral hypothesis may benefit from some refinement. Individuals that are infected do not simply become part of a larger sickness pool, but rather they fill specific and unique niches. But how unique are these roles and what determines their specifics? With [xxxx] temporarily removed, will someone fill in as simply another of the mythical and indistinguishable
[xxxx]s? Or will that someone fill in with unique characteristics clearly distinguishable from [xxxx]? Will that someone move the story forward to the next chapter? Yes, this is a question that may be of more than academic interest."



Further down, Caryn writes:

“As the discussion between Gary and myself developed, we pondered on how myth and thought forms might manifest as a material reality over time, specifically focusing on the MJ-12 legends. We invited one of our sources into the debate, interested to hear what he might have to offer, and once again getting onto the Viral Meme topic.

Our contact puts forward the probability that the VMI (Viral Meme Internet) is technologically driven, which includes back-door computer viruses as well as front-door information memes and viruses, and further postulates that this is being perpetrated by a cadre` inside the Intelligence-Business Community (IBC) and outside the systematic and structural IBC review.



The following are direct quotes from a TOP Level Researcher at a prestigious Med School/University in November 2006 (these were published earlier this year in response to Caryn's quotes of the same source - the same one she's referred to in the quote above). In this case he writes:

......"It is the story, not the persons, that I expect is sick in SOME parts, I do not know ALL sick parts (yet) for sure, DO know SOME sick parts (for sure) and really have seen folks get sick who were well, and get sicker who were at least functioning at first. That is, convert from a healthy state of Paraphrenia to a frank state of Paranoid Personality Disorder, and in a few cases to Schizophrenia or Delusional Identity Disorder."

[snip...]

"Anybody who gets deeply involved in those parts of the story ends up being sick... they spend a disproportionate amount of time on the topic. When they can't warmly embrace people outside this sphere of interest, and they no longer even have time to simply exist."


Or, as Mark describes it - "Meme disease".

The following is an excerpt from an interesting article written by Gary Bekkum - of Starstream Research. This was written in April of 2006.

-----

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articl ... cleID=7535

Avian Virus Invades Washington, D.C.

"Combine the ideas behind passive radar with telepathy, and you have a unique C^4 system capable of distinguishing the flow of unconscious information around the planet. The Aviary is concerned not so much with the hardware of an 'alien' civilization, but with a deeper and more sinister dilemma. Take command and control of the flow of the collective unconscious mind, and you have taken control of the human race. A meme is an idea that spreads like a virus: an idea that replicates evolves and infects like the common cold, moving from host to host. It would seem that the Aviary's "core story" has revealed a virus of unearthly intent set upon the leadership of our planet."



Now...I don't know about you guys, but I still don't buy into the whole "virus of unearthly intent" set upon the human race....but maybe certain other researchers do? Maybe it's a running hypothesis that they aim to "scientifically" explore... If so, Mark's description above of it as a "bizarre" situation is certainly an understatement!

The moral dilemma of conducting such research? Well Ray laid it out very well earlier this year:

"It is bad enough when people who are (by no fault of their own) a bit low on the critical thinking skills allow their beliefs to lead to things like this. However, when there are certain people who clearly have the intelligence to NOT be taken-in by a lack of evidence (and some go off to start sensational web forums that PROMOTE such beliefs), in my mind this kind of activity can almost border on criminal."


However...is it criminal, if it is done in the name of Science?

Collin Bennett – quoting Codex: “ The alien is under construction”

"When the curtain fell back, the Wonderful Wizard was revealed to be nothing more than an ordinary man, pulling levers…."

*Author's Note* - The above monologue is nothing more than speculation and observation, I am not accusing anyone of anything at all, nor do I claim to have a single answer about any of this - I am only noting some connections between the various conversations that have gone on over the past couple of years in regards to this "virus", and these recent discussions. Any resemblance to actual Reality is purely coincidental.

Oh and Chorlton, as a pure-blood American, I promise never to call you mate. ;)

-Ry
---
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Postby Access Denied » Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:55 pm

ryguy wrote:In effect...we are now the "freaks", my friends. They, the delusional, are becoming the "sane". Welcome to the "best possible world". LOL

Well the good news I suppose for us (and especially Mark lol) is they are pretty much confined to one place. Thank God for RU! :)

Springer wrote:We are spending money on a genuine TOP Level Research Project through a grant to a prestigious Med School/University to hopefully get some solid data on this bizarre situation in the hope of finding ways to stem or counter the meme disease.

I must be precognitive. :) Anybody remember this thread I started in my previous incarnation as “Savoir Of The Real” on the ATS?

Is ATS and UFOlogy a playground for Government mind control researchers?
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread235196/pg1

As discussed here…

Kit Green at ATS
http://www.realityuncovered.com/forum/v ... .php?t=607

:shock:

Springer wrote:People like Lear and sleeper are NOT part of the problem, they don't sell anything or even ask for anyone's belief. We know who the "problem type" are all too well.

So they’re part of the solution? :lol:

Let’s be honest here, we all know who the elephant in the room is here. Like moths to a flame Lear and sleeper create controversy… controversy creates discussion… discussion creates income… income keeps ATS alive and Mark gainfully employed right? :)

Springer wrote:It's all about hoping to expose those who are wide eyed "True Believers" to the realities as much as possible.

And John Lear and sleeper are key components in that effort! 8)

Springer wrote:Calling them names and disrespecting them for enjoying a flight of fancy WILL NOT get you far. ;)

However coddling them will. OK I "get it" now. :)
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Postby Springer » Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:05 pm

Sleeper and Lear have nothing to do with solution. There may not be a solution, we certainly don't OWE anyone a solution but we are willing to invest the money and effort into gathering the data to help.

If you believe Kit Green is a "Government mind control agent" then I have nothing more to say to you about Kit Green... :@@:

S...

edit to add: As I've told you in email, sleeper and Lear combined might generate $70.00 in revenue a month, Zep can attest to how much banner and Google ads pay per thousand views... If you think revenue has ANYTHING to do with sleeper and Lear you are very wrong.

Just because YOU guys focus on them doesn't mean anything, the VAST MAJORITY of the visitors to ATS (99% of them) never see sleeper or Lear's stuff.
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Postby Access Denied » Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:14 pm

Springer wrote:If you believe Kit Green is a "Government mind control agent" then I have nothing more to say to you about Kit Green... :@@:

With all due respect my friend I think you missed the point (subtlety, irony). :D

Springer wrote:If you think revenue has ANYTHING to do with sleeper and Lear you are very wrong.

So when John Lear goes on C2C and plugs ATS that's not free advertising?
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Postby Springer » Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:23 pm

Ryan:

That was a long post. :P

Your thinking is good but your aim is off, the "study" has nothing to do with the people who read sites like RU and ATS. It has to do with locating the facts or lack of facts behind the memes first.

That, as you well know, is a daunting and huge undertaking.

Our interest is in finding out WHO is BEHIND the memes, what the motivation is/was and lastly what the effect, if any, has been. ;)

Springer...
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Postby Springer » Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:25 pm

Access Denied wrote:
Springer wrote:If you believe Kit Green is a "Government mind control agent" then I have nothing more to say to you about Kit Green... :@@:

With all due respect my friend I think you missed the point (subtlety, irony). :D

Springer wrote:If you think revenue has ANYTHING to do with sleeper and Lear you are very wrong.

So when John Lear goes on C2C and plugs ATS that's not free advertising?


Considering we spent nearly $100,000.00 advertising on C2C I'd say no it's not.

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Postby Access Denied » Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:32 pm

Springer wrote:Considering we spent nearly $100,000.00 advertising on C2C I'd say no it's not.

I don't listen to C2C so I didn't know ATS was a regular advertiser. Point taken, thanks.
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Postby Springer » Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:40 pm

Access Denied wrote:
Springer wrote:Considering we spent nearly $100,000.00 advertising on C2C I'd say no it's not.

I don't listen to C2C so I didn't know ATS was a regular advertiser. Point taken, thanks.


Fair enough.

WRT your KG comment, you are correct I completely MISSED it. lol

m...
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Postby Chorlton » Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:52 pm

Ry
What brand of coffee is that??
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Postby ryguy » Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:18 pm

Haha...it's the new Burger King "Turbo". Drink two of those and you'll be writing books for posts too! :)

Springer - I think the intent is good (uncovering who's behind the creation of the mythology), I just don't see that funding is critical. Although I'd love to fly across the country at a whim on someone else's dime to locally investigate phenomenon, I don't think this particular matter will require that level of effort. After all, it didn't work for Bill Ryan or Mr. Moore - they just play cloak n' dagger games with you and convince you the plot is larger than it really is. Guys like Lear, Cooper and others, who at one point were seemingly grounded and sane I'm sure - bit the bait and got reeled in, and now look at them. One dead from threatening the police with his delusions, the other claiming the other side of the moon has an alien base, covered up by NASA.

Follow their stories and there's always one common element - they begin investigating, they develop "insider intelligence sources" and they subsequently and drastically lose the plot.

Although if you do plan to take that route (funding and traveling) - more power to ya. I wish you luck (in more ways than one)!

-Ry
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"Only a fool of a scientist would dismiss the evidence and reports in front of him and substitute his own beliefs in their place." - Paul Kurtz

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Postby Access Denied » Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:40 pm

Springer wrote:WRT your KG comment, you are correct I completely MISSED it. lol.

You're the one who called KG a mind control "agent" not me... straw man 101. :D
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Postby IgnoreTheFacts » Fri Oct 26, 2007 3:59 am

Now, I like ATS a lot, but you can clearly see it sliding downhill for those of us that are considered "debunkers", "skeptics" and general sticks in the mud. Rather, anyone with common sense, reason and logic stand a good chance of getting turned away at the door in the near future.

The problem can clearly be deciphered after listening to Springer’s “Owner Box” interview on the ATS mix show. ATS, is ultimately beholden to the almighty dollar. Not that there is anything wrong with that. But, listen to that interview, Springer’s a businessman, banking on a profitable “user-content driven” website. And adding venture capitol to the game only increases the importance of the three amigos overall success.

So keeping in mind that ATS is a for-profit business (again, nothing wrong with that), which relies on user activity to generate overall revenue through page hits, clicks, etc, it is going to lean towards the groups that generate the traffic. Unfortunately, the louder and nuttier topics, members, and threads always get the most hits. This encourages more of them, and more and more like-minded lurkers will eventually sign up to join in. Again, not a bad thing, but common sense among the membership can’t prevail in this atmosphere. Plus, the business owners have to be able to recognize this trend, and take advantage of it the best they can to generate traffic. They don’t want to outright support it, but they have to lean on it, seeing as the crazies do generate way more traffic than us normal people. And this can be seen in their moderating, clearly. Examples can be given, but there is no need it is so obvious.

And it will turn out to be a self-fulfilling prophecy if left unchecked. The more crazies hang out and get their asses licked, the more will join. Since, as we all know, there is no lack of crazies out there, the amigos can run a decent enough business based on their traffic alone (not with the current level of crazies, but after the swell) if every single “skeptic” or “debunker” left and never came back. Eventually, it will be nothing more than a more organized “GodLikeProductions” site.

On the other hand, the amigos with this new capitol want to try to make a solid brand name out of ATS, for radio (they want to take on coast-to-coast), TV (think unexplained mysteries, but not as painful to watch) and continue the internet thing. Now, they sure realize that in order for them to attract more advertising revenue in the future their site can’t be filled with nothing but low-wage earning whackos in tin-foil hats claiming holographic planes crashed on the moon, destroying the hanging gardens and ruining the underground tunnels that lead to Venus. I hope they realize this.

The other MAJOR problem with ATS is their stupid slogan “Deny Ignorance” What a friggin’ joke that one is. I think their slogan should be “Encourage Ignorance” as that is all they seem to do the majority of the time.

But, it must always be kept in mind when passing judgment about ATS, they are a for profit business first and foremost. So the general assumptions about "freedom of speech and fairness" does not really apply.
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Postby Chorlton » Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:28 am

IgnoreTheFacts wrote:The other MAJOR problem with ATS is their stupid slogan “Deny Ignorance” What a friggin’ joke that one is. I think their slogan should be “Encourage Ignorance” as that is all they seem to do the majority of the time.
.


I think that should be remade into 'Encouraging Ignorance Via Denial' as they certainly encourage rather than deny ignorance

.
But, it must always be kept in mind when passing judgment about ATS, they are a for profit business first and foremost. So the general assumptions about "freedom of speech and fairness" does not really apply.


Oh I always realised the money motive was the primary moving force. Maybe not at the start but for certain it is now, what with the incessant and boring 'Cult of the 3' being promoted at every opportunity. I always slagged off programmes like 'The X Factor' and 'American idol' (US Spin off of X Factor)
I despised those programmes for the promotion of the 'Instant Celebrity' , people with little talent who had done absolutley nothing to attain some sort of celebrity status. Now I see that, that is what is trying to be done with the 'Cult of the 3'. They are attempting to create cult figures from people who have done nothing, well most certainly at least one.

ATS and its 'Deny Ignorance' slogan is the antithesis of the truth.
Whilst the rest of the site and subject matter is pretty much on course, ATS itself, to me, is now encouarging the loonies, crackpots, shamans, and hoaxers, and could be, in itself a Disinfo setup. Yes the US government doesnt really need a disinfo setup as it does a good job of that itself, but to have a site like ATS doing a job, outside the mainstream doesnt hurt their ideas. Its disgracefull, which is why they are running scared of sceptics and slap them at every chance whilst supporting the nutcases.
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