A Question for ATS

Any discussion related to ATS goes here

A Question for ATS

Postby Chorlton » Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:11 pm

On ATS a post was made by Springer:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread185069/pg218

Where he stated:
"One of the major rules of this site is backing up "wild claims" or your story goes away for "knowingly posting false information" which is against the TAC of this site. "

Im trying to work out the justification for allowing John Lear, Zorgon, Sleeper, Gridkeeper and many others to continue posting their wild claims, and knowingly posting false information?
I have become that which I always despised and feared........Old !

My greatest wish, would be to own my own scrapyard.
User avatar
Chorlton
Uncovers Reality
Uncovers Reality
 
Posts: 1174
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:02 pm


Postby Springer » Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:02 pm

That's simple, none of those people make wild claims...

You see there is a difference between making a statement about email headers (the context of the post you quote above) that make a hoax appear to be genuine and sharing your beliefs and or personal experiences.

None of the people you list are trying to convince anyone that the US Government (or any other "Earthly body" for that matter) is feeding them proof of a cover up or contact with aliens.

Actually none of the people you listed are trying to convince anyone of anything.

When Lear states "he knows something for a fact" he is very clear about that being HIS BELIEF based on his own research or hear say. Just because it sounds incredible and completely daft is no reason for not allowing those who enjoy doing so to discuss it. If the people weren't interested he wouldn't have them interacting with him to the level he does.

When sleeper shares his experiences there is no way to prove or disprove them. That tells most people all they need to know, they don't need a nanny to save them from the horrid things sleeper tells them.

Fact of the matter is, just about every member that enjoys sleeper and Lear's threads has said many times they don't necessarily believe a bloody word of it, but they ENJOY the flight of fancy.

I am done explaining things to you Chorlton, I have much bigger fish to fry and precious little time to fry them.

Why don't you round up a few hundred thousand dollars and build a site JUST THE WAY YOU THINK it should be? It can't be that hard, if idiots like The Three Amigos can do it, right?

Springer...
Never argue with an idiot. He'll only take you DOWN to his level and beat you with experience!
Springer
Member
 
Posts: 404
Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 10:36 pm
Location: Indian Territory

Postby Chorlton » Sun Oct 21, 2007 4:46 pm

Springer wrote:That's simple, none of those people make wild claims...

...


Stop it, that made me spill my tea
...

Why don't you round up a few hundred thousand dollars and build a site JUST THE WAY YOU THINK it should be? It can't be that hard, if idiots like The Three Amigos can do it, right?
Springer...


Good god man Ive got two guitars worth more than that

The fact is, the 3 amigos did nothing other than plant stories and use sockpuppets, then install one as a dictator.
I have become that which I always despised and feared........Old !

My greatest wish, would be to own my own scrapyard.
User avatar
Chorlton
Uncovers Reality
Uncovers Reality
 
Posts: 1174
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:02 pm

Postby Springer » Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:03 pm

Chorlton wrote:
Springer wrote:That's simple, none of those people make wild claims...



The fact is, the 3 amigos did nothing other than plant stories and use sockpuppets, then install one as a dictator.


With that, I'll simply call you a liar and be done with you. Pitiful...

S...
Never argue with an idiot. He'll only take you DOWN to his level and beat you with experience!
Springer
Member
 
Posts: 404
Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 10:36 pm
Location: Indian Territory

Postby Chorlton » Sun Oct 21, 2007 5:13 pm

Springer wrote:
Chorlton wrote:
Springer wrote:That's simple, none of those people make wild claims...

The fact is, the 3 amigos did nothing other than plant stories and use sockpuppets, then install one as a dictator.


With that, I'll simply call you a liar and be done with you. Pitiful...
S...


Hit a nerve there did I?

Actually its your actions in stifling debate thats pitifull. Still its your ball..... but you havent noticed theres a puncture in it yet
I have become that which I always despised and feared........Old !

My greatest wish, would be to own my own scrapyard.
User avatar
Chorlton
Uncovers Reality
Uncovers Reality
 
Posts: 1174
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:02 pm

Postby jeddyhi » Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:54 pm

Springer wrote:That's simple, none of those people make wild claims...


Soul Catcher on the moon? Sex with an alien on a pool table? How are these not wild claims? :?:
User avatar
jeddyhi
Reality Is In Sight
Reality Is In Sight
 
Posts: 231
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 7:32 pm
Location: Ohio,USA

Postby Chorlton » Sun Nov 04, 2007 11:23 am

jeddyhi wrote:
Springer wrote:That's simple, none of those people make wild claims...


Soul Catcher on the moon? Sex with an alien on a pool table? How are these not wild claims? :?:


I see there is now a thread on ATS questioning John Lears claims and why he hasnt been booted for posting them.
They dont understand do they? Lears name attracts punters, that he is a total raving loony that posts fairystories is irrelevent. Its the numbers that count and numbers means money and thats ATS's prime motive. They care not a jot for truth, money is the overwhelming motive, at least for the ATS part of the site.
I have become that which I always despised and feared........Old !

My greatest wish, would be to own my own scrapyard.
User avatar
Chorlton
Uncovers Reality
Uncovers Reality
 
Posts: 1174
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:02 pm

Postby Access Denied » Sun Nov 04, 2007 3:05 pm

Chorlton wrote:I see there is now a thread on ATS questioning John Lears claims and why he hasnt been booted for posting them.

Yeah that was hilarious. Here's the thread...

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread312914/pg1

It was closed by Bill and moved to Skunk Works with this nugget...

With that in mind, Mr. Lear is a confirmed and popular personality who resides somewhere on the far fringe of UFO and conspiracy theories. There have been many discussions where his input has provided significant benefit, and still more where his far-reaching ideas force us to consider the boundaries of our box.

On the whole, I tend to think that his involvement with ATS balances in the positive. And as anyone who's been around long enough will tell you, if something is negative, I cut it quick.

Let's get back to the spirit of ATS... collaborative discussion of provocative topics in a genteel manner.

Thread closed.

In other words it’s a positive that he’s spreading trash throughout the community… amen brother give that man a megaphone!

My favorite rationalization expressed by members in that thread is “if you don’t buy into his BS ignore it”… i.e. don’t “deny ignorance”… rather one should “ignore ignorance”. Sure, that usually works with the random anonymous poster whose ill-conceived threads or posts will soon disappear into oblivion but not with somebody like John Lear who has obtained cult status… his supporters will stumble over themselves in a mad rush to “embrace ignorance” and "promote ignorance" because it's the only thing that makes them relevant.

As if ATS couldn’t survive on the strength of it's member's contributions alone without John Lear and sleeper… :shock:

Reading through that thread is instructive… apparently there is a significant portion of the membership that actually believe John Lear has “inside information” and surely there must be some “unspoken truth” behind what he says… i.e. the very definition of disinformation.

Suckers! :lol:

I’m beginning to think this is nothing more than a marketing ploy to draw in the fringe crowd… i.e. “if John Lear can get away with it you can too”… same with sleeper. They are the “poster children” (pun intended) of ATS and give the “troops” something to rally behind.

The really sad part is they are capitalizing on the mental illness of these two individuals by thrusting them into the “limelight” and reinforcing their delusions (and by proxy those of their supporters) by giving them “special status”. There really should be a law against this particularly heinous form of exploitation.
Men go and come but Earth abides.
User avatar
Access Denied
1 of the RU3
 
Posts: 2740
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:32 am
Location: [redacted]

Postby Chorlton » Mon Nov 05, 2007 8:16 am

Yes agree with everything from AD.
Anyone else posting John Lear type rubbish gets banned but Lear is allowed to continue with his rabid delusions, but for how much longer?

Pretty soon theyll probably decide they can continue their 'rope a dope' policy of encouraging and making the fools and idiots seem as if they are important and he'll get dumped.
Money does change peoples outlook.
Deny Ignorance!, Encourage Stupidity, you know it makes (financial) sense.
I have become that which I always despised and feared........Old !

My greatest wish, would be to own my own scrapyard.
User avatar
Chorlton
Uncovers Reality
Uncovers Reality
 
Posts: 1174
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:02 pm

Postby IgnoreTheFacts » Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:03 pm

Lear isn't going anywhere anytime soon, trust me. The business he is involved in is based on webtraffic. If you look at the statistics on that site, and do a little poking around, you will find that the outlandish stuff gets the most replies, without fail. There is a point where is is soo outlandish it either gets closed or deleted, or just not replied to and fades away.

But there is a comfortable region of absurdity they want to inhabit in order to ensure they keep getting more and more traffic based on previous experience concerning what drives the majority of it. It's like a car wreck, people can't look away from some of the stuff that's on there...and then there are people like me that are concerned that most of the ignorant, soft brained fools that stumble onto a site like that could be converted to blind believer status before being exposed to common sense, logic and reason.

So, ATS is under no incentive to change. They are getting bigger, have investor capitol to play with....and it was all earned on the backs of some pretty absurd subjects and members. But that is a very interesting point about society.

On one hand I'm not upset at ATS, as they are merely doing well because of how stupid the majority is, was and always will be. But on the other hand it upsets me that successful sites like ATS not only expose how ignorant the public majority can be, but encourage it for a profit as well.
IgnoreTheFacts
On A Quest for Reality
On A Quest for Reality
 
Posts: 106
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:37 am

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:27 pm

IgnoreTheFacts wrote:On one hand I'm not upset at ATS, as they are merely doing well because of how stupid the majority is, was and always will be. But on the other hand it upsets me that successful sites like ATS not only expose how ignorant the public majority can be, but encourage it for a profit as well.


Is it, perhaps, nothing more than social Darwinism in the 21st Century? "A fool and his money are soon parted". I know that I am also a "crusader for truth, logic, and reason" and I despise it when smarter people take advantage of the.... let's say "less sharp". But at some point you have to realize that you cannot save someone from their own, insistant ignorance about what they choose to believe. In the days prior to organized civilizations, these are the people who would think ferocious animals were "cute and friendly". They would be culled quite quickly. Today their half-life is extended because society thinks they can be protected from themselves.

I know it is tough medicine to swallow, but at least it helps folks like us focus our attention on the hoaxsters, and leave the "true believers" to stumble their way to their own ultimate destiny.

Ray
The Universe is an Integrated System. Operational, Functional, and Physical.
User avatar
You Can Call Me Ray
Uncovers Reality
Uncovers Reality
 
Posts: 1914
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 10:49 pm
Location: Huntington Beach, CA, USA

Postby yfxxx » Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:25 pm

Hi,

this is my first post on RU, so I'd like to give you a very rough introduction in the context of this forum. I'm male (not self-evident from my nick ;) ), 40 years old, live in Germany, have a university degree in physics, and am working as a software engineer. On a "skepticism" scale from 0 ("blind believer") to 10 ("die-hard skeptic"), people sometimes tend to rate me at about 11 :lol: . I.e., I ask for proof (or at least supporting evidence) of almost everything which is even slightly out of the ordinary.

I'm writing this post in a ATS related thread, because there are a few members on RU who might know me from my (not too long :roll: ) presence on ATS, and because the reason I'm here is directly related to ATS. A while ago, I wondered what happened to Chorlton on ATS, asked 'Access Denied' via PM, and he directed me here (thanks, AD!).

As a matter of fact, I became increasingly fed up and bored of all the BS on ATS, and after AD was banned from ATS today for what I regarded as a comparatively restrained criticism of the infamous Lear and Zorgon, I decided to wave it goodbye, too. Not without making my point, of course :wink: . I wrote the post below as a reply to Springer's announcement of AD's ban ... and as I expected, less than 60 minutes later, my post had been erased and my account closed. So, just for the hopelessly curious, that was my last posting on ATS:

Originally posted by Springer
He has failed miserably at not stalking Lear and Zorgon in every thread and rudely bashing them and their theories/speculations. he has failed at avoiding direct name calling (see the post above) and I question his ability ever learn social grace.

"Direct name calling"? Really?? I don't see any other label than "ignorant" - and how can this be name calling when L and Z were ignorant in the context in question?

Anyway...
ATS is not for everyone.


Yes, I realized this a while ago.
It's not for people with reason and common sense.
It's not for people with skills in logic and proper debate.
It's not for people who actually like to discuss things.
It's not for people who are actually educated in the subject under discussion.
It's not for people who don't appreciate posts with 5 logical fallacies committed in a single paragraph.
In short: It's not for people who prefer to actually use their brain (and have one in the first place).

People like Lear and Zorgon, on the other hand, will probably die one day in the more or less distant future, and still wonder "Why the hell doesn't anyone see?". The answer would be obvious: They are the deluded ones, and there is still a majority in mankind which sees things as they really are.

So, while you're at banning, Springer, fire away! I say "Beam me out, Scotty, there's way to much stupidity, b*llsh*t, ridiculous nonsense, and arrogant ignorance here" ....
(yf waving goodbye and ... *bzzzzzz* ... fading away ...)


Ok, the language may indeed have gone beyond ATS childish T&C :lol: ... I couldn't care less, and I think the facts are on my side.

I'm going to browse through the RU site and forum a bit, and maybe drop a line or two if an interesting subject comes along.

Best regards
yf
yfxxx
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:55 pm
Location: Germany

Postby ryguy » Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:34 pm

Welcome to RU yf. I'm afraid we're building a reputation as a safe-haven for ultimate skeptics. But I guess - it is what it is...we certainly value evidence.

I posted the following on ATS, I think not long after you posted yours. Haven't checked if it's still there.


Originally posted by StudioGuy
I think a case could be made that Access Denied was actually being very polite in his assessment.



I, very politely and humbly, would like to offer my very extremely humble and polite opinion, that I agree quite strongly with that above statement.

If this had been a debate, I'd say AD won against Lear hands-down.

In my humble, non-insulting, and non-confrontational opinion.
-Ry


StudioGuy's post had been deleted just before I hit "submit".

If a person truly believes in freedom of speech, anyone should be able to post any outrageous claim they like - and anyone should be allowed to post whatever counter to that claim that they like. That's freedom.

The only real limit should be a level of decorum that demands no vulgar or offensive insults, personal attacks (like telling someone their mother smells like a wet monkey), or anything obscene.

But what can you do - when an organization is privately funded and operated, that freedom is defined by the owners. Springer can afford to lose a few skeptics - the ignorant with wind-tunnel brains are in abundance (and are reproducing at never-before-seen rates...)

-Ry
---
"Only a fool of a scientist would dismiss the evidence and reports in front of him and substitute his own beliefs in their place." - Paul Kurtz

The RU Blog
Top Secret Writers
User avatar
ryguy
1 of the RU3
 
Posts: 4920
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:49 am
Location: Another Dimension

Postby Access Denied » Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:56 pm

I see Mark has posted this on ATS…

Springer wrote:AD was under the strictest of probation and was not even supposed to be engaging Lear because of SEVERAL bannings in the past.

I gave him a break and allowed him back on ATS because he asked nicely and PROMISEDhe would ignore Lear and NOT stalk Lear and Zorgon all over the site bashing their stuff.

That's BS Mark! Why are you lying to the members of ATS and deleting their posts?

I never promised that... the only condition was I be civil! There was absolutely NO dissuasion of what topics or members I could respond to... why in the HELL would I agree to that?

[edited for civilty and to add....]

Wow and to think I tried my best to see things from your point of view and I actually started to consider you a friend after that whole mess last year where you and Skeptic Overlord claimed Simon Gray “accidentally” deleted all 450 of my posts and threads… I see now I was a fool to want to contribute to your site.

[should have listened to my wife lol]
Men go and come but Earth abides.
User avatar
Access Denied
1 of the RU3
 
Posts: 2740
Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 7:32 am
Location: [redacted]

Postby ryguy » Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:59 pm

Access Denied wrote:[should have listened to my wife lol]


Oh..my friend....all complications in life can usually be avoided by following that simple statement you've made above.

There's something to be said for the phrase: "Yes dear..."

:)

-Ry
---
"Only a fool of a scientist would dismiss the evidence and reports in front of him and substitute his own beliefs in their place." - Paul Kurtz

The RU Blog
Top Secret Writers
User avatar
ryguy
1 of the RU3
 
Posts: 4920
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:49 am
Location: Another Dimension

Next

Google

Return to ATS Watch

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests

cron