A Question for ATS

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Postby Chorlton » Tue Nov 13, 2007 9:38 am

So ATS is slowly sliding into a believers tyrannical dictatorship with Springer at the head of the cult worship?
I wonder if the Gang of 3 wear little armbands at their meetings? :P
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Postby yfxxx » Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:10 am

Chorlton wrote:So ATS is slowly sliding into a believers tyrannical dictatorship with Springer at the head of the cult worship?

Seems so ;). The "best" things are:
- The posting immediately after mine, which also supported AD, was deleted as well and the user ("Tiloke") banned, too.
- My account isn't even flagged as "banned", I just can't log in anymore. So to everyone, it will look as if I've just walked away silently.

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Postby Chorlton » Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:07 pm

yfxxx wrote:
Chorlton wrote:So ATS is slowly sliding into a believers tyrannical dictatorship with Springer at the head of the cult worship?

Seems so ;). The "best" things are:
- The posting immediately after mine, which also supported AD, was deleted as well and the user ("Tiloke") banned, too.
- My account isn't even flagged as "banned", I just can't log in anymore. So to everyone, it will look as if I've just walked away silently.
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I DID walk away, after Gruppenfuhrer Springer sent me an email explaining what I 'HAD' to do to stay on ATS. He even deleted my last post explaining why I had left.
What some people will do for money eh?
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Postby uberarcanist » Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:45 pm

Greetings all. Some of y'all probably remember me from ATS, of course I am banned from there now, in part due to my own stupidity and and in part due to the Lear Wars. They won't tell me exactly why I was banned but I theorize that it was because I attempted to recruit who I thought was a sympathetic mod to moonlight on a new forum I was starting up. I was starting up this new forum because I was sick with the pro-Lear, pro-sleeper, pro-flashstorminc hoaxing unenforcement hypocrisy at ATS. So, I will say to you other martyrs-solidarity!!! You are not alone!

Anyways, I've been using message boards for about five years now, and out of all the ones I've seen, ATS makes me scratch my head the most. Out of all the boards I've seen, and I've seen many, ATS is the most inconsistent in its application of the rules and the most heavy-handed towards dissent, but it's not that part that has me scratching my head. What I can't figure is why they are doing this. Granted, Lear and others may still be there because they are cash cows, but why do the mods care when people criticize them? Do we really have that much potential to "tump over the apple cart"? My experience has been that we do not. I mean, it seems that most people who believe Lear will believe him no matter what anyone else says, so how much damage could his critics possibly do? Aren't the mods unwisely risking the stability of the board as a whole by cracking down so hard?
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Postby ryguy » Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:53 pm

uberarcanist wrote:They won't tell me exactly why I was banned but I theorize that it was because I attempted to recruit who I thought was a sympathetic mod to moonlight on a new forum I was starting up.


Yeah - gotta be careful about that. I visit ATS to conduct research and collaborate with folks, but I consider it as a research tool and this is my home. I try not to talk to folks there, either on the forum or via PM, about RU, simply because it could be considered a form of recruiting and that's a huge ATS no-no. Actually a no-no at any forum.

I was starting up this new forum because I was sick with the pro-Lear, pro-sleeper, pro-flashstorminc hoaxing unenforcement hypocrisy at ATS. So, I will say to you other martyrs-solidarity!!! You are not alone!


Yeah - I used to spend more time there, not so much anymore. But they've been around for so long, it's just this huge warehouse of information and I find myself always searching it for data...in spite of the fact that it has grown larger than any other discussion board, it is what it is. It's like Microsoft - you hate to need it, but you just need it. lol Unless of course you're Steve - then you simply use Linux. lol

ATS is the most inconsistent in its application of the rules and the most heavy-handed towards dissent, but it's not that part that has me scratching my head.


Not the most...gosh I can forward you to one or two others that are much worse. lol... But yes, they certainly take the T&C seriously.

I mean, it seems that most people who believe Lear will believe him no matter what anyone else says, so how much damage could his critics possibly do? Aren't the mods unwisely risking the stability of the board as a whole by cracking down so hard?


I'm not sure. As I've said often.. "I just don't get the Lear thing." lol... But if I had to put out a theory...I'd say that it might just come down to the belief system of a person who is in power. If you are of a certain strong religious persuasion, and you are running a forum...you'd tend to be a little more heavy-handed toward those who are writing negatively about what you believe. It's human nature - and it takes a great deal of discipline and restraint to treat every post, pro or con, in an unbiased manner.

You need to have the ability to completely set aside your personal beliefs and opinions when moderating. Which runs completely against human nature. For most people it's near impossible.

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Postby uberarcanist » Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:22 pm

Another problem I have with ATS is that not only do they tolerate people with low or no credibility (it's ok to tolerate those with low credibility, IMO), they shine the brightest spotlight they have on them! Take Lear for example-main stage at the conventions and has his own board because supposedly he is a "conspiracy master". Or what about the Loose Change bastards? Well, one of their videos is being heavily promoted by the website owners.
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Postby uberarcanist » Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:26 pm

Oh, and Ryguy, they certainly don't take the T&C's seriously where Lear, sleeper, or flashstorminc are concerned.
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Postby Springer » Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:12 pm

Chorlton wrote:He even deleted my last post explaining why I had left.


That's because we don't allow drama inducing "good by" posts/threads, never have.

You know this thread really cracks me up. Some of you guys are talking about an internet forum as if it's a serious institution, and as if it has wronged you in a way that actually matters.

Chorlton, I see you've still not learned any social grace, well at least here nobody is disagreeing with you so you should be okay. ;)

Uber, you were warned to not recruit our membership, our TAC specifically forbids it, and yet you did it anyway. What did you expect would happen?

Imagine if we let you "innocently" recruit people, where would we draw the line? How would we then tell Storm Front they couldn't recruit people on our site? How we would tell advertisers they weren't allowed to spam the membership via U2U?

yfxx, we don't allow people to post foul language on our site, your last post would have made a sailor blush. :lol: Your useless attempt at drama was squelched like anyone else's would be.

When you deal with millions of people you have to take a strict stance or it becomes overwhelming quick.
:@@:

Carry on...

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Postby uberarcanist » Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:51 pm

Yeah, Springer, it was really boneheaded of me to try to recruit niteboy82, and while I am sorry, at this time I won't be asking to be reinstated. I've never been much of one for groveling and I'm not even sure whether or not I want to to be affiliated with ATS at all.

Don't get me wrong, it's not as if ATS doesn't have its strong points, but there are a couple of large but, in my opinion, easily addressable problems that you and your fellow site owners have failed to deal with. Furthermore, as far as I can tell, it goes against the philosophy of the site owners to do what it would take to solve these problems.

For a time I thought that constructive criticism and/or dissent could mitigate the damage done by posters who have what I will call a reckless disregard for the truth. However, I am now starting to believe that the problems caused by these posters is so systemic that only a total 180 by the top ATS brass can fix the situation.
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Postby uberarcanist » Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:35 pm

Springer wrote:You know this thread really cracks me up. Some of you guys are talking about an internet forum as if it's a serious institution


That's odd. When Springer wants to promote ATS, it's the greatest thing since sliced bread "user generated content ecosystems!" "we're going public!" "the revolution is you!" "remember, remember the fifth of november!", but when he needs to defend it, suddenly it's quite trivial.

Personally, I think ATS *is* something great, and I wish the Three Amigos would take more serious steps to preserve its greatness.
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Postby Chorlton » Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:56 pm

Springer wrote:
Chorlton wrote:He even deleted my last post explaining why I had left.


That's because we don't allow drama inducing "good by" posts/threads, never have.


Actually its 'Goodbye' but I'll let that slip

However, the real reason you deleted it (as you seem to delete an awful lot of posts on ATS now according to certain reports) was because you didnt want people knowing I had walked out on you. You knew I had a lot of people, even mods who supported me. Thats how I accumulated over 35000 points in a matter of weeks, despite you and your pet mods taking away 1000's of points at every opportunity.
Thats why it was you posting as a sockpuppet who started that thread directly attacking me. Unfortunately it backfired on you when people supported me instead of your sockpuppet and you shut the thread down. WHOOOOOOOOPS.
Same as when I shut you up on the Lear Hologram thread, when you took a poke at me and AD and expected your cult to support you and that backfired badly too didnt it when everyone supported me?. WHOOOOOOOOOPS
You get scared when you arent in controll so you revert to the standard MO of all bullies, you threaten people. I dont bully, and I dont kiss anyones arse, let alone yours, so I left.

You know this thread really cracks me up. Some of you guys are talking about an internet forum as if it's a serious institution, and as if it has wronged you in a way that actually matters


But YOU think its a serious 'institution' (Great word that!) dont you?. Serious enough to stop serious questioning of ridiculous statements such as Secret Space stations and Mining on the Moon?.
It doesnt wrong me at all, Im too long in the tooth and been around and about long enough to let anything or anyone do that to me, what it does do is encourage stupidity, encourage frivolity, and encourage people to imagine things that arent really happening. Its making fools feel important, making the lonely invent things so people will communicate with them. THAT is what is bad about ATS, its damaging serious UFO and paranormal stuff, and probably deterring those with real stories to tell from coming forwards. YOU are to blame for that and for encouraging it. Shame on you.
But as for your facile suggestion above, its actually the other way round. Its YOU that seems to treat it as a way of life, to treat ATS as if it actually had any importance, even encouraging the cult of the 3 and of you personally. You encourage those simple minded enough to follow the cult. You are now close to getting, on the ATS side of things, a forum consisting almost but not entirely of idiots, of "Oh wow that picture of an Alien is so real" type people. But you dont care, theres no altruistic motives in ATS other than money. 'Deny the Ignorance, look at the bank balance'. Enjoy it while it lasts, people dont stay stupid all their lives.
But I know its only an internet forum, which is why I walked away from it , dear boy.

Chorlton, I see you've still not learned any social grace, well at least here nobody is disagreeing with you so you should be okay. ;)


Wait. I have to think about that........... No I dont ,we have a YANK talking about social graces here???
BWAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA OHHHHHHHHH Stop it your breaking me up. (apologies to you other Yanks), you, a man that pompously pontificates about terms and conditions then let's people like Lear and Zorgon break those self same T&C's and post outright lies??. You are either incredibly gullible or incredibly stupid.
But lets look at your statement above a bit closer eh? Most people on ATS didnt disagree with me at all, they disagreed with the way I said things, and even YOU said that yourself. The reason that some got pissed off with me was most probably because those that moaned had probably never even been out of their hometown, let alone state, and didnt have sufficient knowledge to realise that the world outside of the US is a very different place where people do and say things a lot differently than in the US. The term 'They dont get out much do they' would apply to an awfull lot of your contributors. I call a spade a spade, if you dont like that, it isnt MY problem but YOURS, Thats what you and a few others just cant realise.

When you deal with millions of people you have to take a strict stance or it becomes overwhelming quick.


Oh yes.... a strict stance, except for the cash cows like Lear and Zorgon, posting outright lies, and pushing their website at every opportunity. Your hypocrisy is astounding

Carry on...
Springer...



Oh yes I, and I suspect others will do. Posting the truth and not allowing as you do, a website like ATS to aid and abett stupidity, lies, hoaxes, and out and out insanity.
ATS is now hastilly becoming a home for the ridiculous, the outrageous, the hoaxers, liars, weirdo's, fruitcakes and those who wish to create an atmosphere of fear amongst the more feeble minded. Congratulations, you have managed to make a website go from good to ridiculous in quite a short time, and its all because of the policies of the gang of 3, the self righteousness, pompostiy, and blinkered ideals, along with the yearning for the good old US Dollar. You sold out.
I would earnestly suggest you get out a bit more, see a bit of the word and interact with real people. You might then develop a sense of humour and possibly an idea of how real people interact in the real world and not the airy fairy 'nice' world you want ATS to be.
Last edited by Chorlton on Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby yfxxx » Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:11 pm

Springer wrote:yfxx, we don't allow people to post foul language on our site, your last post would have made a sailor blush. :lol: Your useless attempt at drama was squelched like anyone else's would be.

"made a sailor blush"?? That's nonsense and you know it! I used only a single swearword in my posting, and that was "b*llsh*t" - not exactly unheard of on ATS. You're acting like a kindergarten nanny :roll: !

Anyway, when you banned me you could at least have done it properly (instead of only changing the password or whatever you did to prevent me from logging in). The "yfxxx" username is still marked as "Member" and not as "Banned".

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Postby Access Denied » Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:37 pm

yfxxx wrote:As a matter of fact, I became increasingly fed up and bored of all the BS on ATS, and after AD was banned from ATS today for what I regarded as a comparatively restrained criticism of the infamous Lear and Zorgon, I decided to wave it goodbye, too.

Thank you for the show of support yfxxx et. al., most appreciated. Who knew calling somebody out (literally) for being ignorant about a subject they’re claiming to be a “master” of was being uncivilized… silly me I thought denying ignorance was the whole point. ;)

By the way, for those who missed it here’s the post I was banned for…

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thr ... pid3699950

I think you and Chorlton have set an excellent example… in the final analysis the most effective way to deny ignorance on ATS is in fact to ignore it… to do otherwise artificially elevates conspiracy theory above the level of obscurity and irrelevancy it has held throughout history. One need not invent elaborate plots to explain our world’s problems when in most cases Heinlein's (aka Hanlon’s) razor seems sufficient…

"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."

…in which case one’s time and energy is probably better spent pursuing more fruitful lines of inquiry. ;)

yfxxx wrote:I'm going to browse through the RU site and forum a bit, and maybe drop a line or two if an interesting subject comes along.

Cool. It would be nice to have the input and opinion of a formally trained physicist should you chose to contribute here occasionally… clearly your efforts at ATS fell on (mostly) deaf ears. I’ve found the relatively high signal to noise ratio here to be more favorable to rational discourse. :)

yfxxx wrote:My account isn't even flagged as "banned", I just can't log in anymore. So to everyone, it will look as if I've just walked away silently.

Ah yes, that would be what former intrepid RU researcher Shawnna would call a “slick willy”… all the fun of pissing somebody off without the responsibility of having to answer any hard questions and be held accountable for your actions. I think this is the REAL reason for deleting yours and Chorlton’s farewell posts…allowing it runs the risk of his self-inflated image being punctured in front of his flock and creating dissention in the ranks should some happen to sympathize with the mutineer.

Mark is a coward in my opinion. As you can see by many of his responses here he either resorts to childish insults, appeals to his own authority, or avoids the confrontation completely. Where is the civility in dealing with his detractors he demands from others when dealing with those under his wing? I don’t see it here.

ryguy wrote:But yes, they certainly take the T&C seriously.

LOL… indeed it can be interpreted to serve practically any purpose. ;)

Case in point, Zorgon is allowed to openly recruit members for his hilarious Pegasus “research” group and solicit contributions for his web site… clearly this is in violation of the T&C yet apparently not one single ATS member has the balls to complain about it. Zorgon had a booth next to ATS at the recent San Jose UFO thing selling coffee mugs and such with “John Lear’s Moon Pictures” (well actually they’re NASA’s… oh the irony lol) plastered all over the place… go figure.

ryguy wrote:I'm not sure. As I've said often.. "I just don't get the Lear thing." lol... But if I had to put out a theory...I'd say that it might just come down to the belief system of a person who is in power.

Now there’s a scary thought. :shock: As Chorlton pointed out, if I was a potential investor or partner it would be wise to take that into account considering the management’s unethical promotion tactics are a matter of public record and no doubt obvious to the casual rational observer.

ryguy wrote:You need to have the ability to completely set aside your personal beliefs and opinions when moderating. Which runs completely against human nature. For most people it's near impossible.

More so in the absence of integrity… among other things integrity includes recognizing your limitations, the ability to evaluate constructive criticism, and taking appropriate corrective action when you realize you may have made a mistake. A good moderator should also realize that letting things take their natural course (e.g. allowing peer pressure to come into play) can often be more effective in the long run… micromanagement is unproductive and creates more problems than it’s solves.

uberarcanist wrote:For a time I thought that constructive criticism and/or dissent could mitigate the damage done by posters who have what I will call a reckless disregard for the truth. However, I am now starting to believe that the problems caused by these posters is so systemic that only a total 180 by the top ATS brass can fix the situation.

My $0.02? You thought wrong and don’t hold your breath. :) Seems to me ATS is being built upon a what’s essentially a house of cards… conspiracy theory relies heavily on the ignorance of the uninitiated. As a business model I think it’s doomed to fail… stick around long enough and eventually you realize it’s just the same old stuff being propped up and debunked over and again and inevitably interest wanes for all but the most reckless “truth” seekers. Where’s the room for growth in that? Unless…

uberarcanist wrote:That's odd. When Springer wants to promote ATS, it's the greatest thing since sliced bread "user generated content ecosystems!" "we're going public!" "the revolution is you!" "remember, remember the fifth of november!", but when he needs to defend it, suddenly it's quite trivial.

LOL you’re not getting it (or maybe you are)… as others have pointed out here Springer and Co. are far more interested in making a name and a living for themselves off the backs of their (mostly) unsuspecting membership than the truth. You want “user generated content”? That’s so Web 2.0. Welcome to the next level… “staff generated content”! :lol:

In recent memory and in no particular order I (and several others I’ve compared notes with) have seen evidence of blatant sock puppetry, information manipulation, and “evidence” fabrication that could not have been orchestrated from anywhere other than the inside (otherwise it would have been shut down sooner) hard at work in the following topics…

1. Serpo
2. Sleeper
3. John Lear
4. O’ Hare
5. Ghost Raven
6. Drones

Clearly the name of the game at ATS is gaining thread traction (clicks) by any means necessary… the quest for truth has been subverted by personal gain.

Chorlton wrote:Your hypocrisy is astounding.

It’s good to be king eh? Hoo wee that was some rant my friend… you been drinking some of Ryan’s coffee? :)

Chorlton wrote:You sold out.

I wasn’t around in the early days of ATS but I’ve heard that from everyone I’ve gotten to know who was… believers and skeptics alike.

By the way, I’ve been meaning to ask you about this comment you made earlier…

Chorlton wrote:Good god man I’ve got two guitars worth more than that.

Any chance of putting me in your will? I promise they will be in good hands. :)

yfxxx wrote:You're acting like a kindergarten nanny!

I’m with you… that playground sucks! Let’s take our toys and go home. :)
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Postby uberarcanist » Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:46 pm

I guess a big unanswered question of mine is "what's in it for Lear?" Even assuming that the man is getting paid under the table by ATS, he can't be making enough money to justify taking such a grossly undignified job, could he? I know just about every airline he's ever flown for has gone under, but he's never had a problem getting a job in the past...could he really be as down at the knees as to have to resort to making wacky posts on a bulletin board for money? Or, on the other hand, do any of y'all suppose that ATS could afford paying him a considerable compensation?
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Postby ryguy » Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:59 pm

Could it be the man is simply another deluded believer who accepts the stories he's fed as based in truth?

Look into his past. How much money did he have when he was first sucked into this field? What was he doing, investing in, and researching? Who was he talking to during his research?

The answer as to why anyone in these fields appear to believe outrageous stories can usually be answered by looking at their past and examining who they were talking to (who fed them the "secrets").

And the motives can usually be uncovered by following the money-trail.

Haven't looked into Lear that closely...too many other fish to fry at the moment, but maybe some day. Who knows, maybe they're the same fish. Or birds.

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