A Question for ATS

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Postby Chorlton » Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:05 am

Springer wrote:And for Chorlton:
I am also happy to report that Lear is NOT on our payroll, receives NO MONEY from The Above Network, LLC or ANY of its affiliates including but not limited to ATS. Lear doesn't get a red cent (or anyother form of currency) from us.


I dont believe you. Simple isnt it?.


Ryan, please do set up a separate research forum for these guys, let them learn something and GET OVER the fact people like to discuss the far out wth Lear. Or not... :@@:
Springer...


You cant discuss anything with Lear, especially on ATS, He will either ignore anything he doesnt like, post lies or get abusive. You will then step in like the bully you are, protect your little cash cow and give the proponent of the question a warning.
Last edited by Chorlton on Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Chorlton » Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:15 am

uberarcanist wrote:
Chorlton wrote: Unfortunately for Lear, I was a friend of Whitlam in the 70's and knew about most of what went on and called Lears bluff.


If you don't mind me asking, how did you come by knowing Mr. Whitlam?


Because of family ties etc I spent a lot of time in Oz in the late 60's and 70's and did a gig in Canberra that Gough attended (I was and still am a musician).
Through that we did several other private Gigs for Gough as well as some charity Gigs and I got to know him quite well due to opposing ideas about East Timor and other things.
Gough loved to discuss things with people outside the political sphere and I became quite good friends with him and his family.
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Postby uberarcanist » Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:54 am

Access Denied wrote:Again, for me it all boils down to independent confirmation... on the other hand what difference does it make? It's a waste of time. The man is clearly full of sh_t. :D


I will agree with you that Lear has a total lack of credibility, but that's really not what I'm concerned about, instead I'm concerned about WHY he maintains a low level of credibility. There's a variety of theories out there as to his motives and I will shortly demonstrate why I believe all of them fail except for the one wherein he is involved in state-sponsored disinformation. If Lear is indeed involved in such a disinformation campaign, there are a variety of things he can, perhaps inadvertently, teach us:

1. The government is hiding something big connected with UFOs and 9/11 (not that the two are linked) from us.
2. Lear often diverts attention away from certain subjects, I noticed him do it once with Roswell. If we pay attention to what Lear doesn't want us to pay attention to, we might be able to figure out what it is the gov't is hiding.

OK, now why do I believe the disinfo hypothesis is the most plausible when it comes to describing Lear's motives?

Well, let's look at the contending theories.

1. Lear is an idiot who sincerely believes in the crap that he posts.

I do not believe this holds up because I still believe that Lear's speech, the one that describes a highly experienced pilot with questionable character is essentially correct. I can see where you're coming from in suggesting that this might be a work of fiction not penned by Lear, but that only begs the question "why would anyone write this?" Lear can't be generating a lot of money, as I will demonstrate below, so the profit motive's pretty much a unsatisfactory explanation here, furthermore, if you really want to pimp the Lear angle, why create such an unflattering account? It really doesn't add up.

2. Lear is crazy

Although Lear's posts are grossly inaccurate and seemingly the product of a fevered imagination, they are quite readable, with good grammar and spelling, in marked contrast to any of the ravings of confirmed madmen I have stumbled across on the Internet. This is the weakest of the theories.

3. Lear is greedy

How much money could Lear be possibly making from his disinfo? OK, let's look at ATS' main revenue source-advertising from small-time alternative vendors. I can't see a lot of cashola there. Who the hell even clicks on the ads? I know I sure don't. IF Lear is making anything from his disinfo, there are only two likely sources, as Lear doesn't hawk any books: ATS and the government. And it's pretty obvious ATS couldn't pay Lear much.

4. Lear is part of a gov't sponsored disinformation campaign.

This, IMO, is a very strong theory. Lear admits to working for the CIA previously, what's to say he wouldn't do so again? Furthermore, his tactics of discouraging
discussion of certain topics and encouraging the promotion of flawed theories in a quite narrow category of other "pet" topics (9/11 and aliens, mostly), show a degree of focus that I think conveys adherence to an agenda.
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Postby Access Denied » Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:45 am

Excellent post UA, I'll have to ponder a proper response. In the meantime what are your thoughts about these additional possibilties?

5. Lear is an attention whore

6. ATS member johnlear isn't strictly John Lear

:shock:
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Postby yfxxx » Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:58 am

uberarcanist wrote:2. Lear is crazy

Although Lear's posts are grossly inaccurate and seemingly the product of a fevered imagination, they are quite readable, with good grammar and spelling, in marked contrast to any of the ravings of confirmed madmen I have stumbled across on the Internet. This is the weakest of the theories.

In fact, I don't think this is a weak theory. You don't have to be "crazy" to have what's called a delusional disorder. E.g. Wikipedia says (emphasis by me):

Delusional disorder is a psychiatric diagnosis denoting a psychotic mental illness that involves holding one or more non-bizarre delusions in the absence of any other significant psychopathology (signs or symptoms of mental illness). [...]

A person with delusional disorder can be quite functional and does not tend to show any odd or bizarre behavior except as a direct result of the delusional belief. [...]

As for the delusion itself, Lear's "theories" definitely appear to fit the psychiatric definition of "Delusion":

* certainty (held with absolute conviction)
* incorrigibility (not changeable by compelling counterargument or proof to the contrary)
* impossibility or falsity of content (implausible, bizarre or patently untrue)

(source: Wiki again ;) )

So Lear could have a genuine mental problem even if he doesn't wear his underpants on his head.

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Postby Chorlton » Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:18 am

Access Denied wrote:Excellent post UA, I'll have to ponder a proper response. In the meantime what are your thoughts about these additional possibilties?


6. ATS member johnlear isn't strictly John Lear

:shock:


Now Thats a suggestion I could go with.
A sockpuppet name that is used by several posters to post whatever.
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Postby uberarcanist » Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:53 am

After careful consideration, I've decided that the most likely theory to explain Lear's behavior is a toxic combination of a delusional disorder with hardcore attention whoredom. You see, he never discusses the cause celebres of MUFON or more serious UFO researchers and I've seen him on at least one occasion try to change the subject when someone else wants to talk about them. Therefore, I believe we're seeing another battle in the almost two-decade-old (not so) cold war between who I will refer to as the woo-woos and MUFON and the other serious UFO researchers. I believe Lear still has an axe to grind with serious UFOlogy ever since being rightly booted from the '89 MUFON convention and kicked off ParaNet. I don't think the disinformation theory can be outright ruled out, and I will bring that theory back up if more evidence to support it emerges. Until then, I think the MUFON grudge plus being totally delusional is the best explanation. I don't think Lear would be one to tolerate somebody impersonating him.

That's enough talking about John for now, IMHO. 8)
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Postby Chorlton » Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:12 am

uberarcanist wrote: I don't think Lear would be one to tolerate somebody impersonating him.
IMHO. 8)


I dont think it comes down to tolerating someone impersonating him. It comes down to him lending his ATS online ID to one or all of the Gang of 3 to post their ideology on Lear threads.
Now, as I suspect, they already post using sockpuppet IDs I dont know why that would be necessary but who knows what they will do to maintain the crackpot ideals that seem like honey to the bees of the believers?
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Postby ryguy » Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:05 pm

Wow...I'd entertain the idea of Lear suffering from delusion while maintaining the ability to function in normal society. Yes he can walk into a coffee shop and order a cup of Joe. Yes he believes there's an Alien base on the dark side of the moon.

But I honestly couldn't see the 3 Amigos risking the reputation of a site they've worked years to develop, by pretending to be John Lear and posting updates. Just look at the number of jobs he's blown...is it really that hard to imagine that he doesn't really have much else to do except sit at the computer all day and post on ATS? The idea doesn't seem too far-fetched.

Also - he's consistently delusional...without much variation. :)

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Postby Chorlton » Wed Nov 21, 2007 2:43 pm

But its obvious that at least one of the Packet of 3 has been using sockpuppets? why shouldnt others?
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Postby yfxxx » Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:21 pm

Chorlton wrote:But its obvious that at least one of the Packet of 3 has been using sockpuppets?

Err ... is it? Can you give an example? Thanks!

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Postby ryguy » Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:43 pm

Chorlton wrote:But its obvious that at least one of the Packet of 3 has been using sockpuppets? why shouldnt others?


I'm not sure about how obvious it is that one of them uses sockpuppets...although I'll hand it to you that I have suspected it strongly at times. Even though - that's not the kind of thing that I'm saying could destroy the reputation of the site. Playing with sockpuppets, or pretending to be a fictional character is one thing - and a lot of people do it while they accuse others of the same.

Pretending to be a real person like Paul McGovern, Gene L., Tamara Linden, posing as federal or government agent with 'insider' information, or John Lear - is another thing entirely. It is serious fraud. So we need to be careful making accusations that the three owners of ATS are committing that kind of fraud. However, supported with solid evidence, here at RU anyone is allowed to make such statements.

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Postby Chorlton » Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:59 pm

yfxxx wrote:
Chorlton wrote:But its obvious that at least one of the Packet of 3 has been using sockpuppets?

Err ... is it? Can you give an example? Thanks!

Regards
yf

Well I can distinctly remember seeing an old thread somewhere on ATS where Im sure I remember Springer had admitted to using one at some time.

What convinces me however is that there was a thread where someone who had made no contributions to any threads made a direct attack at me. The OP of that thread just posted that attack and then made one more post in a very long thread and I, along with others who PM'd me also thought that was Springer. He eventually showed up a long time later when the whole thing backfired and closed the thread, despite there being several mods posting on the thread and me saying I didnt give a damn about it. He's also never denied it. and the OP of that post refused to respond to several PM's sent to them.

There are also ( to my way of thinking) a lot of threads which can be seen to have died then suddenly, months later are resurrected by posters with litle or no history. Its in their interest to do so.
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Postby Chorlton » Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:03 pm

ryguy wrote:
Chorlton wrote:But its obvious that at least one of the Packet of 3 has been using sockpuppets? why shouldnt others?


Pretending to be a real person like Paul McGovern, Gene L., Tamara Linden, posing as federal or government agent with 'insider' information, or John Lear - is another thing entirely. It is serious fraud. So we need to be careful making accusations that the three owners of ATS are committing that kind of fraud. However, supported with solid evidence, here at RU anyone is allowed to make such statements.
-Ry

Its not fraud at all if the posts are made with the knowledge and consent of the owner of the name?. Its only fraud if the owner of that name knew nothing about it but that would be impossible in the case of Lear.
I would think that what IS Fraud is telling everyong and sundry that they 'Deny Ignorance' when its quite obvious they actually encourage it.
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Postby ryguy » Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:31 pm

Chorlton wrote:Its not fraud at all if the posts are made with the knowledge and consent of the owner of the name? Its only fraud if the owner of that name knew nothing about it but that would be impossible in the case of Lear.


Good point!
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