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Postby ryguy » Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:25 am

IgnoreTheFacts wrote:Hard to believe that there was enough skeptics left on that board to even influence such a decision on his part.


Christmas came early this year for sane folks! Guys - break out the champagne...

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Postby Chorlton » Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:13 am

IgnoreTheFacts wrote:Ah, back to the all powerful US secretly controlling everything. I love that one. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Chort's right, I highly doubt the CIA has much, if any, influence on the UK.

Concerning ATS, I am guessing that Springer had to give in to a little reason and common sense when we just laid down the challenge to both Jose Escammila and Gridkeeper...present evidence or be banned, lol. Oh my, will he follow through?!?

Hard to believe that there was enough skeptics left on that board to even influence such a decision on his part.


Springer is probably considering giving them their own forum. :P

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(To the tune of 'Lovers of the world unite')

Nutters of the world, unite
You alone know what is right
Believers all should feel this way
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Keep the fire of fruitcakes bright
Nutters of the world, unite


Merry Christmas !
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Postby IgnoreTheFacts » Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:41 pm

JOSE HAS BEEN BANNED.

Had to shout that, couldn't believe it. I never thought I would see the day that ATS would turn down someone who could provide traffic to their site. Guess his alarming private messages threating both physical harm and cyber stalking to other members was even too much for them to ignore.

Chort, great lyrics, lol. They fit very well (both with the song and reality, lol)

I just picked up my new Christmas gift last night.....a nice new amp. Can't wait to flogg it over the weekend. When my wife gets back in town and gets an earful of my new toy she is going to be angry, so I plan to do nothing but play it until then.........

But you know what they say, it is better to beg forgiveness than ask permission.....
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Postby Chorlton » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:35 pm

Is it Escamilla or Gridkeeper that's been banned ?. Considering its probably the waster James Casbolt whos pulling Gridkeepers strings are the going to pull the interview with him?

I did a gig with some old tossers at the weekend and my trusty Vox AC 30 did a valve!. Fortunately I had some more at home and finished the gig with an old Marshall.
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Postby Access Denied » Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:46 pm

Mark just posted this “update” on TEAM ATS's incredible discovery...

Springer wrote:This all takes time, lots of it. First we have to get the producers to sign an NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement) which will prevent them from being able to take our information public without us involved to keep the facts straight. (that's one of the most common ways they spin this subject the wrong way)

Isn't that really just another way of saying we don't want to give anyone (including the producers) a chance to independently verify the information (eliminate that pesky process called peer review) before going public with it?

Springer wrote: Getting an NDA signed takes weeks since the network's legal staff has to review everything, etc...

The holidays have cost us a couple weeks on top of all this.

We plan on being in New York and meeting with the producers by mid January. Then, IF they decide to green light the episode it will have to be produced and scheduled for airing which is another several weeks.

Realistically, it will probably be late spring/early summer before this gets out. The system is slow and those who are impatient lose the chance to get in front of 30+ million people in one shot.

The good news is we will know if they are willing to do the show or not very quickly since we are requiring a 24 hour yes/no after we show them what we have.

I imagine potential producers of this kind of stuff wouldn’t care if the material is bogus or not… as long as it has some perceived entertainment value. Of course 24 hours isn’t a whole of time to decide…

Good luck with that Mark.
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Postby Shawnna » Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:21 pm

Chorlton wrote:
Shawnna wrote:
Chorlton wrote:But the CIA has no sway in the UK or the EU


LOL - I'm sorry but if you honestly believe that, you have very little understanding of how that all works my friend.


OOOH look mum ! someon who reckons they know something !!

Please state your evidence and lets see if you know any more about the UK services. US involvement in the UK especially with respect to the UFO scene is very very hyped.
They might like to think they are involved which is fine.


My apology if I misinterpreted that you were referring to the "UFO scene" exclusively.

But.....

I do believe it is well understood that the USG via the CIA has a tremendous influence in the UK as well as other countries. Public evidence is perhaps best illustrated via the recent flap over the US's rendition policy and practice.


Chorlton wrote: dont call me 'your friend' because im not. I choose my friends. VERY carefully



My apology for referring to you as "my friend". I certainly didn't mean to imply that literally - it was simply a figure of speech.

:roll:
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Postby Chorlton » Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:02 pm

"But.....
I do believe it is well understood that the USG via the CIA has a tremendous influence in the UK as well as other countries. Public evidence is perhaps best illustrated via the recent flap over the US's rendition policy and practice. "

Then your 'belief'' is wrong.
The rendition episode had nothing whatsoever to do with the US influence. The airport being used for refuelling was a private one and when HMG found out about it, there was hell to pay.

The USG has very little influence in the UK, the CIA even less, though I know it thinks otherwise.. Maybe you are confusing influence with co-operation as the CIA and UK intelligence services do exchange information concerning matters of security
We are a Democracy consisting of a Parliament of highly independant politicians, of which the US has no influence. There is no 'special relationship' either, to my knowledge. The US does things for its interest and we do things for ours.
We share certain Military products and knowledge, but there is no great love of the US in the UK. Especially when the US will not allow US pilots to attend inquests for people killed with friendly fire.
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Postby lost_shaman » Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:35 pm

Shawnna wrote:
My apology if I misinterpreted that you were referring to the "UFO scene" exclusively.



Well I brought up the CIA influencing the MSM. That was were Chorlton objected saying that the CIA has no sway in the U.K. or Europe.
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Postby Springer » Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:08 pm

Access Denied wrote:Mark just posted this “update” on TEAM ATS's incredible discovery...

Isn't that really just another way of saying we don't want to give anyone (including the producers) a chance to independently verify the information (eliminate that pesky process called peer review) before going public with it?


Not at all...

Ummm, you need to study up on how real journalists do things... Especially after the Dan Rather debacle, they don't put ANYTHING on serious TV without thoroughly vetting it and the show we are meeting with is the 800 pound gorilla of "serious TV" (well, as serious as "News Show" TV gets anyway).

Access Denied wrote:I imagine potential producers of this kind of stuff wouldn’t care if the material is bogus or not… as long as it has some perceived entertainment value. Of course 24 hours isn’t a whole of time to decide…


Your assumptions of who we are talking to (producers/TV Show) are so totally wrong they don't merit comment.

The "24 hours" is to decide whether they GREEN LIGHT the segment or not, the vetting of the information will obviously take longer and that comes AFTER "green light" because it costs them MONEY to do it.

We aren't going to sit on this for weeks waiting for the number one show to make up its mind. If the first one takes a pass we move on to the next one which is not as huge as the first but a SOLID program none the less.

I don't know if it's envy or bitterness but you guys are really making gross mistakes in your concrete thinking processes. :)

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Postby ryguy » Mon Dec 24, 2007 5:38 pm

Springer wrote:I don't know if it's envy or bitterness but you guys are really making gross mistakes in your concrete thinking processes. :)

Springer...


Personally I'm reserving comment until I see what the big deal is all about. If a large mainstream news org (CNN/CBS/NBC/Fox or the like) vets the claim and runs with it - I consider that a first big step.

We'll see. Analysis and critique can come later - when there's actually something to discuss.

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Postby Access Denied » Mon Dec 24, 2007 9:37 pm

Springer wrote:I don't know if it's envy or bitterness but you guys are really making gross mistakes in your concrete thinking processes. :)

Really? I think you’re mistaking my amusement for envy. :D

Mark, please read the ENTIRE article at the link I gave in the beginning of this thread VERY carefully, especially the part acknowledging the “pioneering” work of Clifford Stone.

[speaking of Stone, any idea if he made his claims about being on the Secret Government's crack Flying Saucer Recovery Team before or after Robert Todd stumbled on to Moon Dust/Blue Fly?] ;)

Here it is again in case you missed it…

Project Moon Dust
The History of Project Moon Dust

by Kevin D. Randle, Captain, U.S.A.F.R [1998]
http://www.nicap.org/moondust.htm

[from the beginning this time]

When United States Senator Jeff Bingaman asked the Air Force about a classified project called Moon Dust, Lieutenant Colonel John E. Madison of the Congressional Inquiry Division, Office of Legislative Liaison, wrote, “There is no agency, nor has there ever been, at Fort Belvoir, Virginia, which would deal with UFO’s or have any information about the incident in Roswell. In addition, there is no Project Moon Dust or Operation Blue Fly. Those missions have never existed.”

What the documentation, now available thanks in part to the Freedom of Information Act, and the pioneering work of Clifford Stone, tells us is that Madison’s letter to a United States Senator is, at best, inaccurate. The question can be asked was he merely uninformed, or was he purposefully lying to a Senator? Stone, a researcher in Roswell, New Mexico, challenged Madison’s response with a series of documents, which had been obtained through Freedom of Information Act requests. He pointed out that documents originally classified as secret and since downgraded, mentioned the code name Moon Dust, and specifically a project for UFO-related materials. It also established as fact the location of the parent unit being at Fort Belvoir, Virginia.

The response to this documented information was another letter to Senator Bingaman, apparently from Madison’s boss in the Congressional Liaison Office. Colonel George M. Mattingley, Jr., wrote, “This is in reply to your inquiry in behalf of Mr. Clifford E. Stone on the accuracy of the information we previously provided to your office. Upon further review of the case (which was aided by the several attachments to Mr. Stone’s letter), we wish to amend the statements contained in the previous response to your inquiry.”

It is necessary here to suggest that the Air Force had been caught in a lie (or misinformation) to Senator Bingaman because the documents were available to positively refute them? We can look at this as a simple mistake, based on the lack of information available to the Congressional Liaison Office and Lieutenant Colonel Madison. It can be suggested that nothing nefarious was going on here. Madison simply wasn’t aware of the classified Project Moon Dust and responded without checking the information, as he should have done.

[snip the rest]

Can you in all honestly tell us that what you’ve been going on about (and berating people for not knowing about because of the HYPE you created) is SUBSTANTIALLY different from what’s discussed in that article? You don’t have to give away the farm, a simple YES or NO will do. :D

Pay particular attention to Randle’s conclusion…

The other documents we’ve seen show that Moon Dust survived the end of Project Blue Book. There are, of course, the State Department records, and Colonel Thompson’s letter telling Todd that the name, Moon Dust, had been changed.

Moon Dust became the real investigation of UFOs, the secret study that all of us claimed existed and that the Air Force denied. It was carried out by specially trained intelligence personnel. And, its existence was denied by the Air Force despite the facts.

Now we have all the data.

Also, it would be helpful if you could tell us “concrete thinkers” what YOUR definition of a UFO is.

Thanks,

AD

P.S. Merry Christmas Mark and Best Wishes for the New Year. :)
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Postby IgnoreTheFacts » Mon Dec 24, 2007 10:37 pm

Clifford Stone is a damn fruit loop, and anybody aligning themselves with someone like him does themselves and their organization harm.

I bet Mark didn't really know much about Clifford's claims or who he was. I bet after he looked into it (if he has already) he immediately started looking for other sources. As far as the foia documents cliff has, who cares? There is nothing there that will expose the truth, in my opinion.
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Postby lost_shaman » Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:48 am

Access Denied wrote:Also, it would be helpful if you could tell us “concrete thinkers” what YOUR definition of a UFO is.



Something almost makes me afraid to ask you self labeled “concrete thinkers” the same question.

You realize that when we are talking about UFOs/UAP that we aren't talking about Weather Balloons that we just can't Identify right?
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Re: Breaking UFOlogy news!

Postby Access Denied » Sat Aug 16, 2008 6:18 pm

A breath of fresh air at ATS…

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thr ... pid4813489

Smugallo wrote:
[snip intro to avoid the dreaded and irrational “debunker” label]

Now I notice the site logo states 'Deny Ignorance, please!' In fact, Denying Ignorance works both ways. From a skeptics POV it can mean ignorance of science, from a believers POV it can mean ignorance of (sometimes sketchy) recorded evidence; debunking essentially.

With this in mind, this creates a site that is always going to be crashing with opinions over the same subject matter, time and time again. In this thread, that was started just a few months away from a year ago, it was stated that 'Team ATS' visited Clifford Stone. A man that, although may have a nice personality, is very welcoming and apparently quite religious, is a totaly fraud. His story is complete crap, utterly. He assures us 'not to take it at face value.' Basically believe it or not; a catalyst for lies. Yet on the mark of his great personality, and warmth as a human being your hardest skeptic Crakeur even fell into the trap, so puppy eyed was he that Clifford's Wifes' cookies turned his opinion on Clifford, who if he hadn't have met him in person would probably have tore apart his story by the seams. When exactly is the information that Clifford has going to become available? Is it worth making a documentary, because lets face it, it probably won't affect many people,or the world at large, why not post the documents on the site that's supposed to matter?

If you want to maintain the credibility of this site, which according to those crazy dudes over at RealityUncovered.Com(WoW, are those guys paranoid, they think a conspiracy site is a conspiracy - anyone else sense the irony), is becoming rather too fringy (wide-eyed believers like RiotComing who believe everything they read for example makes a laughing stock of the site) then you have to disassociate with Clifford Stone, and anybody associated with Project Camelot.

Sorry Clifford, God Bless you and your story.

Again sorry for the nay-saying but I had to vent it some way or another.

To which Mark replies in the next post…

Springer wrote:You've totally missed the point Smugallo...

What we are interested in has nothing to do with Clifford beyond the fact he was the man who got the documents.

The documents are most assuredly real and that's all that matters.

Springer...

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh... BS!!!!!!!!!!

[bless me]

No Mark, YOU missed the point and once again you’ve insulted the intelligence of your membership.

Stoned is presenting the documents as “confirmation” his STORY is real!

It’s not about whether or not the documents are “real”.

[although again, as I understand it, according to FOIA researchers, one of Stone’s documents has apparently been altered to remove the handwritten note that indicates the proposal was rejected and never implemented]

Sheesh, no wonder so many people think ATS is COINTELPRO… you’re openly promoting known hoaxers and disinformation.

Worse, you’ve positioned yourself as the sole arbiter of truth by endorsing these documents as “proof” on behalf of your membership without giving them the opportunity to review them and decide for themselves if they wanted to “get behind it” before you (allegedly) went to the media.

Hasn’t this selfish ruse of yours gone on long enough? Post the documents so the community you profess to serve can decide what they want to do with it.

"Freedom of Information" my ass. :roll:


P.S. To Smugallo, if I could give you a WATS I would. Thank you for your effort to DENY IGNORANCE! Also, about those crazy paranoid dudes at RU…

"Never attribute to malice that which can adequately explained by stupidity" ;)

Edit to add: Springer’s response to RU and more about Stone’s claims here…

CLIFFORD STONE (the latest hoaxer sponsored by ATS)
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Re: Breaking UFOlogy news!

Postby skibtz » Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:34 pm

I would like to say hello to you all and look forward to enjoying this forum :)

The recent developments in this thread over at ATS indicate that all is not what it seems with these documents.

I was under the impression, along with many others no doubt, that the documents were absolute proof that the US Government was hiding ET contact/technologies et al.

Not so.

Apparently the purpose is to expose the fact the the US Government has lied in the past. Where is big announcement there? All governments lie. It is what they are paid to do! We already know this.

I am also very wary of making any more posts that convey my true feelings incase I get booted, banned etc. I have already had posts deleted from the thread in question for defending my right to free speech when attacked by another poster.

The fact that I face the threat of eviction and censure renders the act of posting useless. Unless I agree with the owners my voice is not allowed to be heard.

p.s. You guy's wont be deleting my posts just because you disagree with me will you? :wink:
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