Welcome to ATS Watch

[Access Denied]

“Watching the Watchers”

This forum is being offered by RU as a public service to the Internet community in response to numerous concerns expressed by members, both current and past, of the AboveTopSecret forums, that ATS has been, or is, involved in the manipulation of information (e.g. hoaxes) and that this practice may in fact be sanctioned/promoted by, or involve the direct participation of, the management of ATS.

The purpose of this forum is to explore whether or not any credible evidence for such claims exist and offer those who are concerned a place to discuss these issues free from the censorship many of us have witnessed to occur on ATS regarding these matters. It is our hope that if in fact any of this is occurring, or even if it isn’t, increased scrutiny will discourage this practice from occurring in the future, set the record straight, and ultimately lead to a more a responsible Internet community in general when it comes to discussing “alternative” topics… for heaven’s sake people, think about the children!

It should be noted the “ATS Watch” concept was originally established by Shawnna in partnership with other former ATS members and we encourage the open discussion of these concerns with the following important reminders and caveats:

1. Regular forum rules still apply including (and especially) those regarding standards of evidence and personal attacks. Check your egos at the door!

2. The owners of ATS are RU members in good standing and are free to defend themselves from any accusations made. (however they don’t posses the “magic” delete button here lol)

3. Some of threads in this forum related to ATS that were moved here for reference were started in the RU “Latrine” before the inception date of this forum (April 2008) and may contain some posts that don’t meet current standards.

4. This is NOT a forum for you to complain about being banned from ATS because nobody believed you were in league with our Reptilian Overlords.

5. We do not believe ATS is COINTELPRO but hey, if you think you have proof let’s see it lol.

6. Enjoy!

Tom

[IgnoreTheFacts]

Will be an interesting thread to say the least. I have heard ATS conspiracy theories about the same thing from both the skeptics and the believers, from the banned and current members too. There may or may not be something there, but it is very seldom that there are so many that see things so different have this kind of common ground.

Myself, at this time I think that people are confusing trying to run a profitable business with counter intelligence and what not. ATS is a business, nothing wrong with that either.

[Chorlton]

The problem is.. they are liars. Their whole propaganda spiel is a lie

"We are the Internet's largest and most popular community dedicated to the intelligent discussion and debate of "alternative topics."
That, is an outright lie.

"The simple yet effective motto of our membership is "deny ignorance", which signifies an effort to apply the principals of critical thought and peer review to the provocative topics covered within. "

Again, another outright lie. How can anyone deny ignorance, when serious scepticism is warned off and many sceptics are simply banned.
What their motto should be is "Promote Ignorance, it increases turnover !"

"AboveTopSecret.com is renowned for enabling the discussion of nearly anything while insisting on polite civility and respectful decorum. "

A classic lie. ATS isnt renowned for anything other than promoting and encouraging the ridiculous.

ATS is the promotion of ignorance in pursuit of profit, nothing more, nothing less.

[MrPenny]

"Ask me about the link that used to be here"

"Ask me about the link that used to be here"

"Ask me about the link that used to be here"

I've tried to make it clear there that I think their "values" statement is contradicted by the reality of what gets posted, discussed, and moderated.

[Shawnna]

Every time someone reading here at RU clicks on a posted link to ATS, the end result is to continue to line the pockets of the manipulative, deceitful and if proven true, hoaxing owners, Mark Allin, Bill Irvin and Simon Grey.

[IgnoreTheFacts]

I want to mention that this subject may bring in some of those folks that most of you disagreed with over at ATS, and for the purpose of any fun discussion here please try to keep it civil for a while, lol.....ahem.....Chort......cough, cough.

[caleban]

I want to mention that this subject may bring in some of those folks that most of you disagreed with
over at ATS, and for the purpose of any fun discussion here please try to keep it civil.

ITF, it does appear you are somewhat of a sage. With all those players who might disagree, civility is
a tool for promoting discussion, not food fights. I just noticed that Zorgon and JohnLear have both signed
up to the board within 20 minutes of each other. Either someone is playing a joke by impersonating these
folks, or something has caught the attention of the real McCoys. If the latter, I would suspect it is this new
topic area. I for one am curious as to which of these two speculations is true. Since I do not have a
dog in this hunt, I can see potential for a food fight. But the best possible potential is a place to discuss
misunderstandings on neutral ground.

If these two folk have come here to try for the best potential in the last sentence above, then allow me
to emphasize the key statement above.

The owners of ATS are RU members in good standing and are free to defend themselves from any
accusations made. (however they don’t posses the “magic” delete button here lol)

[Shawnna]

And remember that publicity is publicity. I know AD thinks he's doing a public service but I truly question whether that is what will be the end result.

[IgnoreTheFacts]

I disagree with John Lear about almost everything, and with Zorgon about almost everything else. But those two are not always wrong on everything, lol. You have to weed through a lot of BS to get to the few rough diamonds, but that is the fun with this kind of stuff to me anyway.

If John and Zorg want to stop in and give us their two cents concerning the subject I am sure they can add to this discussion in a way that will promote further contemplation from all involved. We should have no doubt that they realize what kind of board this is, and that is it filled with what they consider "skeptics" or basically, their enemy from an intellectual standpoint (many, including myself, that they have had HEATED arguments with in the past). It would be like one of us registering at Godlike productions and trying to use logic, reason and common sense. It would be pointless. So they understand they are in a place where they stand a better than average chance of getting flamed pretty good, but yet they still might come in and at least speak on this subject. For that fact alone we should hear them out.

And Shawnna , I hear you and totally agree with your thought process at the same time.

[johnlear]

Zorgon told me about this place and I registered. He must have registered right after he called. I have no comments on ATS except to ask "What in the heck happened?" Actually I really don't care. The only time I have logged in at ATS since late January were by accident.

[Shawnna]

The only time I have logged in at ATS since late January were by accident.

How does one "accidentally" login to a discussion forum?

[johnlear]

The only time I have logged in at ATS since late January were by accident.

How does one "accidentally" login to a discussion forum?

When somebody sends me a 'You gotta see this...."here".

[caleban]

How does one "accidentally" login to a discussion forum?

By clicking the "remember function" on the password.

Seems pretty obvious to me that the welcome function is mine to do. Most of the others
here will react to that as a republican trying to vote for Hillary in operation Kaos.

I see Zorgon has posted now as well.

I welcome you both, John Lear and Zorgon. You have to be aware of the group of rowdys
here for sure, even if you have not read ITF's post above.
A better description would probably be from a film title of long ago.
"Rebels without a Cause" (It was singular not plural.)

Of all the places on the net, it would seem the two of you have managed to find the
ONE place where associating with US will actually TARNISH your reputation. (Smile -
thats a funny.)

We are not a mean group, well, a few of us anyway, just very skeptical. For example,
how do we know you are not impersonating the two characters you portray ? (Those
of us who lack access to the hit loggers.)

I do have to give credit where it is due. It takes some really tough skin for you to
be here. That will serve you well. Just remember that "words can never hurt you."

It really is a fun place. Wierd, but fun.

[Chorlton]

I want to mention that this subject may bring in some of those folks that most of you disagreed with over at ATS, and for the purpose of any fun discussion here please try to keep it civil for a while, lol.....ahem.....Chort......cough, cough.

Hey for me, that WAS Civil !.
If any of those three muppets want to come here and argue the toss and defend their lies and contradictory statements, bring it on.
But they wont. Springer has already bottled out, and the other two are lightweights.

In the early 80's I took on Norman Tebbit in an open discussion in Chingford about unemployment.
He lost.

For those over the Pond, Tebbit was Margaret Thatcher's Hatchet Man, her apologist. An incredibly intelligent man, destroyed by the idea of power and closeness to the megalomaniac Thatcher A rabid Jack Russel and the fool who stated that the unemployed should 'Get on their bikes and look for work', regardless of the fact that (A) They had no money to buy bikes and (B) once they had spent their last few pennies on a bike there was simply no work to be had, as Thatcher had practically single handedly shut down the UK's manufacturing industry.

[Access Denied]

Sorry I'm behind folks, I took the family to the Renaissance Faire yesterday...

Myself, at this time I think that people are confusing trying to run a profitable business with counter intelligence and what not. ATS is a business, nothing wrong with that either.

As I said in the opening post we don’t take the CI claims seriously, that’s a typical reponse/excuse from folks when their dubious claims are faced with intense scrutiny as is often the case on ATS so that’s understandable… it goes with the territory. We get that here too.

Also, I agree there’s nothing wrong with ATS turning a profit… that’s obviously not the issue here. It’s the “sources and methods” they use that I think we need to be concerned about.

Every time someone reading here at RU clicks on a posted link to ATS, the end result is to continue to line the pockets of the manipulative, deceitful and if proven true, hoaxing owners, Mark Allin, Bill Irvin and Simon Grey.

So then don’t click on the links. I think what we are trying to do here is far more important than worrying about any additional traffic we, in this obscure little corner of the Internet, might “inadvertently” create.

And remember that publicity is publicity. I know AD thinks he's doing a public service but I truly question whether that is what will be the end result.

Well then the Three Amigos should applaud this effort.

If John and Zorg want to stop in and give us their two cents concerning the subject I am sure they can add to this discussion in a way that will promote further contemplation from all involved.

[snip]

So they understand they are in a place where they stand a better than average chance of getting flamed pretty good, but yet they still might come in and at least speak on this subject. For that fact alone we should hear them out.

Agreed, as long they don’t start spamming the board with unfounded claims they are both welcome… the same goes for anybody else. I think thier unique perspective on these issues could be valuable if they're willing to share that with us.

[John and Ron, if you haven’t already please take a minute to look over or our board rules so there won’t be any surprises]

I have no comments on ATS except to ask "What in the heck happened?"

I think it’s pretty obvious but if you want to start a thread about it be my guest. I’d be happy to share my $0.02 and with any luck maybe Mark will weigh in with his $2.00

[although to be fair I think we’d need to hear from Jeff Ritzmann too and get his side of the story]