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Re: Welcome to ATS Watch

Postby ryguy » Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:31 pm

Shawnna wrote:The bold emphasis above is mine.

Of course ATS is no longer a threat to the likes of the Serpo hoaxers - that is all too obvious to anyone with eyes to see.

And isn't it odd that one of the primary characters involved in Serpo is/was also ATS's 'Science Advisor' - Christopher 'Kit' Green, MD.


*Ding* - 10 points to Shawnna.

And the next question for our contestants: What month & year did Dr. Kit Green first come in contact ATS?

Please provide supporting evidence for your answer. I will be comparing it to ours before awarding points. ;)

As Torbjon says: just sayin'...

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Re: Welcome to ATS Watch

Postby TheSkepticOverlord » Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:50 pm

torbjon wrote:Does the membership determine what goes on the front page

Yes. Completely. The site home page and the forum summary pages (and top/hot pages) are organized depending on member flags and replies.


and what goes in skunkworks

Some threads get moved into the Skunkworks forum, but anyone can start a thread there.

(confused) How does the Skunkworks factor into this?
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Re: Welcome to ATS Watch

Postby Shawnna » Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:55 pm

Springer wrote:
Shawnna wrote:The bold emphasis above is mine.

Of course ATS is no longer a threat to the likes of the Serpo hoaxers - that is all too obvious to anyone with eyes to see.

And isn't it odd that one of the primary characters involved in Serpo is/was also ATS's 'Science Advisor' - Christopher 'Kit' Green, MD.

:!:

That's rich coming from someone who swears she hasn't looked at the site in years.

Go look at the most popular threads from last year, everyone of them that the MEMBERSHIP deduced was a HOAX was tagged with the Dread ATS [HOAX] tag. I say Dread ATS hoax tag for a reason, go search "Wired" magazine for why. ;)

Kit Green is a great scientist and you, Shawnna, were as much a "primary a character" in slurpo as Kit ever was! I can't believe the hypocrisy in your statement! Just because Kit was used, IMHO, at the onset by his friend and was intrigued by slurpo, AS WE ALL WERE AT FIRST, you dare to cast aspersions at him?! If the paranoid science fiction you were spreading about Kit last year is what you base your assumption on then please see my signature. ;)



Yes - I was involved in uncovering the hoax. My involvement, as well as Kit Green's involvement, was fully documented with what I had available at the time here


And yes, Springer I dare cast aspersions. You see, I'm not so easily impressed with someone's CV or ability to promulgate b.s. science, and I certainly have no vested interested in any forum's ad revenue.

:wink:


And I don't know the specific answer to Ryan's next question, but it was publicly announced on October 13, 2006. See this link:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thr ... pid2549955

EDIT by me to add: If for some odd technical or other reason the above post disappears from ATS, I've uploaded a pdf of it here.

http://www.serpo.info/files/KitGreenjoinsATS10-2006.pdf
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Re: Welcome to ATS Watch

Postby JayKew » Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:28 pm

Springer wrote:
Shawnna wrote:The bold emphasis above is mine.

Of course ATS is no longer a threat to the likes of the Serpo hoaxers - that is all too obvious to anyone with eyes to see.

And isn't it odd that one of the primary characters involved in Serpo is/was also ATS's 'Science Advisor' - Christopher 'Kit' Green, MD.

:!:

That's rich coming from someone who swears she hasn't looked at the site in years.

Go look at the most popular threads from last year, everyone of them that the MEMBERSHIP deduced was a HOAX was tagged with the Dread ATS [HOAX] tag. I say Dread ATS hoax tag for a reason, go search "Wired" magazine for why. ;)

Kit Green is a great scientist and you, Shawnna, were as much a "primary a character" in slurpo as Kit ever was! I can't believe the hypocrisy in your statement! Just because Kit was used, IMHO, at the onset by his friend and was intrigued by slurpo, AS WE ALL WERE AT FIRST, you dare to cast aspersions at him?! If the paranoid science fiction you were spreading about Kit last year is what you base your assumption on then please see my signature. ;)

Jaykew, I don't remember you but what the hell are you talking about? Sleeper and Lears' threads are all in Skunworks, how many different bloody ways do we have to say WE LEARNED FROM OUR MISTAKES, CORRECTED THE THINGS WE COULD and NOW THE MEMBERSHIP PROMOTES OR IGNORES... NOT US. THE MEMBERS DECIDE WHAT"S WORTH ATTENTION NOT THE MANAGEMENT!

Get it that time mate? :P

Springer...


Springer

Is there any need to be foul mouthed and abusive towards me ?

I have never been anything but polite in my posts to you or Bill.

It seems that the T&C that you rigidly enforce on ATS do not apply to you when you post on here.

I wonder if you will be man enough to apologise.
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Re: Welcome to ATS Watch

Postby torbjon » Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:02 am

Springer / TheSkepticOverlord:

Springer replied to this post of mine with a "Nope"

Torbjon:
So if I'm understanding the sub plot conversation here, about the new more tolerant more patient more lenient ATS as regards to "personal experiences", then I could go back and start chatting about Solstice and Infrid and not have the things lost in skunkworks but Stay in paranormal and, if the fans (members) actually Like the, um, "personal experiences" maybe have them elevated to front page status??

interesting...

(for those who care, Infrid got buried in skunkworks Because it was a "personal experience" and I never discussed Solstice on ats)

Infrid
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread213353/pg1

Solstice:
http://www.torbtown.com/library/solstice.html


(springers reply to that was Nope...)

I countered with:

Does the membership determine what goes on the front page....


to wit S.O. replied Yes...

is it yes or is it no?

S.O.:

Skunkworks figures in because now it seems that 'personal experiences' are given more leeway and patience than they were then... that's all.

(you know, for someone who said this on the other page:

TheSkepticOverlord:
I think there's far too much knee-jerk reaction to thread titles or topical focus, and not nearly enough examination of the actual content of the threads.


you really seem to get out of synch often.)

So if I'm understanding you correctly S.O., if I were to go to the paranormal portion of your forum and start a thread based upon a personal experience, and played by all the rules and did my level best to be honest and forthcoming and so on, and if my "personal experience" attracted a sufficient fan base then a) the "personal experience" would remain in paranormal and not be lost in skunkworks and b) the "personal experience" might actually get front page billing due to fan response, yes?

Springer said Nope to that...
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Re: Welcome to ATS Watch

Postby TheSkepticOverlord » Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:55 am

torbjon wrote:Springer replied to this post of mine with a "Nope"

I can't speak for Mark, but I would venture to guess his "nope" was in relation to the "stay in paranormal [forum]" part. Depending on the level of conjecture in the "personal experience," there would be a significant possibility that it might be moved to the Skunkworks forum.


for those who care, Infrid got buried in skunkworks Because it was a "personal experience" and I never discussed Solstice on ats)

I'm not sure what you mean by "buried." The thread, as you pointed out, is still open and available
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Re: Welcome to ATS Watch

Postby ryguy » Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:22 am

Shawnna wrote:And I don't know the specific answer to Ryan's next question, but it was publicly announced on October 13, 2006. See this link:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thr ... pid2549955

EDIT by me to add: If for some odd technical or other reason the above post disappears from ATS, I've uploaded a pdf of it here.

http://www.serpo.info/files/KitGreenjoinsATS10-2006.pdf


As always - Shawnna brings the goods. lol

That's right - we do know it was before Oct 13, 2006 at least...

Further, we know it was before the beginning of that month as well:

From Kit Green 10/8/2006:

"That is why I have so enjoyed communicating with you, and Ryan and Steve, Mark, and Shawnna. You five have never taken my thoughts and denigrated them, attached them to soft porn messages, spammed them after taking phrases out-of-context, and have been respectful, even when disagreeing with me.

But...except as the above...an active participant in the process of discovery of the truth of the SERPO stories...I have never, ever been a part of constructing or releasing any part of the stories. I have encouraged...early on...others that seemed to be in touch with real people (like Paul and Gene) to do so...by saying: "please, let's suspend judgment and just look at the data...." and "please, Gene...(or) Paul...send more..."....but it all stopped, there was no more data, and the games began."


I wonder if that's considered spamming after taking phrases out-of-context? lol

Anyway, it appears that ATS now (since late 2006, early 2007) agrees with the strategy "let's suspend judgment and just look at the data..."

Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.
-Sun Tzu


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Re: Welcome to ATS Watch

Postby Chorlton » Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:23 am

torbjon wrote:
Springer wrote:
torbjon wrote:So if I'm understanding the sub plot conversation here, about the new more tolerant more patient more lenient ATS as regards to "personal experiences", then I could go back and start chatting about Solstice and Infrid and not have the things lost in skunkworks but Stay in paranormal and, if the fans (members) actually Like the, um, "personal experiences" maybe have them elevated to front page status??

interesting...


Nope... See my post above.

S...


I am, I see this:

NOW THE MEMBERSHIP PROMOTES OR IGNORES... NOT US. THE MEMBERS DECIDE WHAT"S WORTH ATTENTION NOT THE MANAGEMENT!

I'm confused.

Does the membership determine what goes on the front page and what goes in skunkworks or does the management do that?


I think what that means TJ, in ATS speak, is that they make it up as they go along, they say one thing and do another, depending on their level of grumpiness/alcohol/recreational drugs..
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Re: Welcome to ATS Watch

Postby torbjon » Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:12 pm

That's kind of the impression I've been getting too regarding ATS 'official' policies... it seems there is some sort of 'equation' used to determine if someone (like, say, You) should be banned, I've asked what that is,,, no reply. It seems that a 'consensus' of the staff is now required when banning a member... but I don't really know what that means... I've asked "simply majority? two thirds majority?" etc, but no answer... It seems that the leers and the sleepers can express their personal experiences and get prime time slots based on member feedback, but a hypothetical scenario involving myself and a personal experience would probably get buried in a backwater thread regardless of member feedback...

Everything seems quite flimsy, flexible, open to interpretation... *licks finger, sticks it up in the air* which way is the wind blowing?

both remus and I have mentioned the fact that they are always saying that banned members can contact the staff via the contact staff button and try to work things out or at least get an explanation....

As we know that didn't function in my case and Ray says he's aware of at least one other case where that didn't function... obviously there is some flaw with that system...

Springer made it a point to tell me how involved the banning procedure has become (without actually Saying anything, great politician *laughs*) Post bans have always been a 'cooling off' period for the parties involved, but actual member banning has never had a similar cooling off period for the parties involved (which certainly would have 'solved' my little problem and maybe yours as well) nor do they seem too interested in implementing one...

I'm glad that they are here and all, but neither ATS rep. seems too serious about actual Problem Solving and seem more interested in damage control, spin doctoring, and discrediting.

I can't help but wonder just exactly what it is we got that has them spending sooooo much time over here... Bill would have us believe that the numbers are insignificant, that there are so few banned members and that there is virtually Nobody on this forum... to hear him say it we're nobodies from nowhere and we got nothin'... and yet looking at the chat logs they both have spent a Lot of hours over here...

all over a small handful of nobodies from nowhere with nothin'??

crazy.
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Re: Welcome to ATS Watch

Postby Chorlton » Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:03 pm

TJ said

"I can't help but wonder just exactly what it is we got that has them spending sooooo much time over here... "

I think its me, they love me really and my witty repartee and banter. They just dont get quality like that over there any more. Springer is jealous of my dashing good looks and long hair and SO is jealous of my.... well.... hair.

Its a cross I have to bear. But Im a brave soul.
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Re: Welcome to ATS Watch

Postby torbjon » Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:54 pm

(Chorlton: you bare the cross well... I too am jealous of your hair... however, being devilishly handsome myself I feel no threat in that department)

Onward

So, I've been trying to figure out this leer/sleeper patience / tolerance thing...

it's been stated that the 'new' ATS allows people a little more leeway, a little more 'wiggle room' when talking about their "personal experiences" than the 'old' ATS did... the new philosophy being 'we'll tolerate 99 bozos to get that one good egg' kind of thing.

So I've been asking about that and am seeing two different answers:

Springer insists that the Membership determines the validity / value of a 'story':

Springer wrote:
NOW THE MEMBERSHIP PROMOTES OR IGNORES... NOT US. THE MEMBERS DECIDE WHAT"S WORTH ATTENTION NOT THE MANAGEMENT!

and

WE DON"T PROMOTE THE CONTENT THE MEMBERS DO.

Whereas TheSkepticOverlord insists that Management supersedes membership response / desires:

TheSkepticOverlord wrote:
Depending on the level of conjecture in the "personal experience," there would be a significant possibility that it might be moved to the Skunkworks forum.

and

The member would very likely receive a posting ban and engaged in a U2U or email conversation with admin. However, there is also a very high probability that they'd be "perma-banend" based on the staff discussion in this type of situation.

The long-term management of the core ideal of the ATS vision supersedes the supposed popularity of a disruptive member.

=====
I'm just a little confused by all of that...

One of the reasons this is of interest to me is that back then I authored a "personal experience" thread in the Paranormal section of ATS. After a short time I received the U2U from 'the mod' saying that my thread had been moved to Skunkworks.

So I sent a note to 'the mod' and asked "what's up with that?" to wit 'the mod' replied something along the lines of "well, I was going to move it over to Cryptozoology as that seemed more appropriate but I WAS INFORMED that "personal experiences" like this belong in Skunkworks"

now things seem to be different... or are they?

I'm also still very curious about the whole "consensus" thing when it comes to member banning... (simple majority? two thirds majority? unanimous?) how does that work, exactly? A show of hands? Private Ballot? Exactly how many staffers have to be present to have a quorum? These seem like very generic 'rules of procedure' for any company, small or large, but so far no one seems to have a straight answer...

There's been talk of an 'equation' that is used to determine if someone should be banned... "part of the equation", "factor into the equation" etc. So I've asked a few times now "what is that equation?" and still no straight answer...

"Post bans" are used as a "cooling down period" for all parties involved... but there is no "cooling down period" for perma bans... nor does the 'accused' seem to have any rights whatsoever... right to council, right to see and present evidence, right to jury of peers, etc.

There has been a lot of talk, (for which I am grateful), but not a lot has been said yet... but I'm trying...

I would also like to point out that it seems to me that ATS Watch is (currently) not a united force. I do Not communicate with other RU members regarding my dealings here nor they with me... Currently ATS Watch seems to be a loose collection of individuals voicing their concerns and opinions as separate units as opposed to a united force. (This may change over time).

As such I resent the various "you guys" broad brush accusations coming from both Springer and TheSkepticOverlord... When reading those types of remarks I "know" they mean one, two, maybe even three Specific Individuals, but it's a slam against All the members of the Watch site, some of whom have never even posted.
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Re: Welcome to ATS Watch

Postby Shawnna » Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:22 pm

torbjon wrote:I can't help but wonder just exactly what it is we got that has them spending sooooo much time over here... Bill would have us believe that the numbers are insignificant, that there are so few banned members and that there is virtually Nobody on this forum... to hear him say it we're nobodies from nowhere and we got nothin'... and yet looking at the chat logs they both have spent a Lot of hours over here...

all over a small handful of nobodies from nowhere with nothin'??

crazy.


It's crystal clear to me what's going on here, and Ry spelled it out in a couple of previous posts in this thread that began here.

Here's a summary from my perspective:

1. ATS started out much like RU - committed to the truth incorporating rigorous analysis and commentary.

2. Serpo came to light on ATS in late 2005 and consistent with ATS's original approach to all things that smell of hoax, the Serpo thread was closed by SO on February 6, 2006.

3. In early October, 2006, ATS announced their formal association with key Serpo character Christopher 'Kit' Green, MD. And as Ry pointed out, there were some charismatic (and probably well-funded folks) involved with Kit in this little adventure. I'm sure they didn't much appreciate the shutting down of their free advertising channel and I can only imagine the strategy planning that went on within this little well-funded group about their next step.

4. Shortly thereafter (July 26, 2007 to be exact) ATS announced they had received a significant chunck of change. Related ATS thread preserved here, but here's a snippet.

Image

5. And from then on, ATS has welcomed with open arms anything related to a 'personal experience' - regardless of how far fetched or groundless that 'personal experience' might be.

:roll:

And it's important to requote what Ry said previously

Ryguy wrote:What is it that Sun Tzu wrote in The Art of War about conquering an enemy?

"In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good."

"The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting."

"To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting. "


Seems like it was a very effective strategy, dontcha think?

:P
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Re: Welcome to ATS Watch

Postby Shawnna » Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:10 pm

I've been thinking about this all night.

I'm truly wondering how many of us wouldn't have done exactly the same thing?

By that I mean, when faced with the prospect of a very large financial windfall, would we be inclined to maintain our commitment to truth supported by factual evidence if we had been in the driver's seat at ATS?

My sense is the answers lies within. Using ATS as an example, the original owner (Simon Grey) did not conceive ATS to be the leading edge website forum committed to truth supported by factual evidence and commentary. Rather, it originally began as part of an online alternate reality game known as Majestic.

Then Bill comes on board with his desire to see if he can create some sort of online community. Mark then joins up 'cuz he smells money and well.... that illustrates what 'lies within' the PTB at ATS (before their more recent private investment group came on board).

:wink:

Without a deep and unwaivering commitment to maintaining a forum committed to the truth with factual evidence supported by commentary, it was only a matter of time before their all-too-human inclination to pursue 'success' (money and main-stream-media status) took over.

Knowing what truly motivates any choice 'we' make can only be done by those making that choice. And 'we' can be an individual, a business or even a nation's government.

But it is possible to get a sense for what is driving those choices by watching what they do over time. Or as I stated in this thread,

Shawnna wrote:The core values of a nation (or person/family, or corporate entity) are reflected in where they put their 'energy' (aka financial or other resources).


What we've witnessed with ATS is a very public playing out of Simon, Mark and Bill's core values - at least with respect to what ATS truly stands for.
"The only thing we found that makes the emptiness bearable is................... each other."

From the movie "Contact"

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Re: Welcome to ATS Watch

Postby MrPenny » Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:55 pm



That's weird. Weird because, without knowing any of that alleged background....I started this thread at ATS...

Organized Roleplaying on ATS?

You don't have to click over...Here's a copy/paste from the site...
It occurs to me that it probably wouldn't take much effort for a group of friends, coworkers, classmates, etc...to get together and decide to use ATS as a "gameboard" for some type of roleplaying activity.

Many of the elements for some of the most popular roleplaying games are right here....aliens, dragons, starships, etc.....

How difficult do you think it would be to organize something along these lines, maintain it, and possibly draw unwitting members into the "game"...?

Have you seen any activity that may suggest a scenario such as this?.....don't name any names.....if you think so, just say maybe one, two, whatever....and possibly the forum they appear in.


It got one (1), repeat, one (1), response.
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Re: Welcome to ATS Watch

Postby TheSkepticOverlord » Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:02 pm


You were proven wrong about that, why do you persist?
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