ATS Hoax Involvement?

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ATS Hoax Involvement?

Postby Shawnna » Thu May 01, 2008 8:10 pm

Well..... I have circumstantial 'evidence' supporting my personal opinion (that would probably not meet YOUR personal standards given your ownership position at ATS!) that ATS was allegedly involved in creating the fake Serpo team log that mysteriously appeared on GLP during the serpo saga.

Remember that incident, Bill? Seems a bit odd to me that the posts in the serpo thread related to that incident have disappeared. And I wouldn't be at all surprised to suddenly see you produce them here so don't even go there as we both know you have the ability to change the facts as you deem necessary to support your slippery position.

*shrugs*

I also believe the allegations that ATS was somehow involved in the O'Hare UFO story but my 'evidence' leading me to subscribe to those allegations would not stand up in your eyes, I'm sure.

After all, ATS owners are way too smart to ever leave irrefutable proof in either situation and we both know that.

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Re: ATS Banning Practices?

Postby TheSkepticOverlord » Thu May 01, 2008 9:13 pm

Shawnna wrote:ATS was allegedly involved in creating the fake Serpo team log

Honestly... I have no idea what that is. "Serpo team log" ... didn't that come from Victor?

Shawnna wrote:posts in the serpo thread related to that incident have disappeared.

hrm... several posts in that thread were removed because of some intense T&C infractions, is it possible that the posts contained some horrid language?

Shawnna wrote:And I wouldn't be at all surprised to suddenly see you produce them here so don't even go there as we both know you have the ability to change the facts as you deem necessary to support your slippery position.

First we need to level-set by trying to job my memory so that we can be certain we're talking about the same thing. My memory has the team log coming from Victor in his emails.


Shawnna wrote:I also believe the allegations that ATS was somehow involved in the O'Hare UFO story but my 'evidence' leading me to subscribe to those allegations would not stand up in your eyes, I'm sure.

This is something new, like the above team log. What aspect of the story do you believe we had some involvement? (It's a pretty damn big story)
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Re: ATS Banning Practices?

Postby Shawnna » Fri May 02, 2008 1:48 am

TheSkepticOverlord wrote:
Shawnna wrote:ATS was allegedly involved in creating the fake Serpo team log

Honestly... I have no idea what that is. "Serpo team log" ... didn't that come from Victor?


Nope. WRT to the fake log - remember in the midst of Serpo a fake Exchange Team member's log appeared on GLP and when opened with a txt editor it had information in the margin that made it look like a viral marketing campaign?

If this is opened with a text editor, you'll see what I'm talking about.

Image

And if my recollection is right, it was our own Zep Tepi who figured out and reported on the text in the margin - is that right Zep?

TheSkepticOverlord wrote:
Shawnna wrote:posts in the serpo thread related to that incident have disappeared.

hrm... several posts in that thread were removed because of some intense T&C infractions, is it possible that the posts contained some horrid language?


There was quite a bit of very civil dialog about this in the original serpo thread at ATS and it is now gone. And no Bill, there was nothing in those posts that could even remotely be construed as against your T&C's.


TheSkepticOverlord wrote:
Shawnna wrote:I also believe the allegations that ATS was somehow involved in the O'Hare UFO story but my 'evidence' leading me to subscribe to those allegations would not stand up in your eyes, I'm sure.

This is something new, like the above team log. What aspect of the story do you believe we had some involvement? (It's a pretty damn big story)


Reading this should help give you some perspective on where I'm coming from on this.
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Re: ATS Banning Practices?

Postby TheSkepticOverlord » Fri May 02, 2008 3:55 am

Shawnna wrote:If this is opened with a text editor, you'll see what I'm talking about.

Okay... I remember that now. You're saying... what now? That someone on ATS made that for GLP? (confused, as my memory did have that coming from Victor)

Shawnna wrote:There was quite a bit of very civil dialog about this in the original serpo thread at ATS and it is now gone.

If you're referring to posts about that image, I think a separate thread was created and it wasn't part of the main Serpo mega-thread. It's possible it was trashed once it was generally accepted that someone was playing games. (I'll see if I can find the trashed thread, if indeed it was trashed.)


Shawnna wrote:IReading this should help give you some perspective on where I'm coming from on this.

Yikes... I've not seen that before, and it's massively long... could you summarize one or two of the key points?
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Re: ATS Banning Practices?

Postby TheSkepticOverlord » Fri May 02, 2008 4:03 am

Is this the thread regarding the log images you were looking for?
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread195317/pg1
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Re: ATS Banning Practices?

Postby Shawnna » Fri May 02, 2008 5:30 am

TheSkepticOverlord wrote:
Shawnna wrote:IReading this should help give you some perspective on where I'm coming from on this.

Yikes... I've not seen that before, and it's massively long... could you summarize one or two of the key points?


No - it is your choice whether or not to read the information.

*shrugs*

If it were me, I know I would definitely want to understand why quite a few believe ATS has been involved in hoaxes.


TheSkepticOverlord wrote:Is this the thread regarding the log images you were looking for?
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread195317/pg1


The original serpo thread included the posts related to the faked team log in the chronological order in which the pathetic story unfolded. I only know that when I went to search for the posts long after you banned my account - they were gone.
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Re: ATS Banning Practices?

Postby Access Denied » Fri May 02, 2008 6:03 am

TheSkepticOverlord wrote:Is this the thread regarding the log images you were looking for?
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread195317/pg1

Wow, that was quick. Now that’s what I call customer service! While you’re at it think could you try to find my posts?

OK looks like I have some more reading to do…

Hi Shawnna, this looks like it might be interesting. I guess I don't understand why Bill would trash this either but maybe I need to read the thread? What gave you the impression ATS might have been behind this? Do you know who posted it on GLP and who posted it on ATS or is that all in the above thread? Was it something about the timing or…?

You’ll have to forgive me, I missed out on the whole Serpo thing on ATS. I’ve read bits and pieces here and there and from WW I know a little bit about the Centrist thing (a completely separate issue?) but I’m not sure any kind of consensus was ever reached on that? Was it Centrist who was one of the first members of ATS or am I thinking of somebody else? Didn’t Ryan mention something about that recently?

OK I definitely need to do some more reading lest I appear dense…

[and I still need to finish gathering up my concerns wrt O’Hare… ugh]

TJ any chance you could briefly summarize your concerns wrt to your experience with the "Fair Skeptics" as it related to O'Hare assuming there are any unresolved issues? I know personally I strongly suspect the ATS branded "00000000" photo was an inside job by Ritzmann as I'm sure many others do as well. Same goes for "eyewitness" but that's probably a subject worthy of it's own thread...

Damn, what a crazy week this has been… need sleep! I'll have to catch up later...
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Re: ATS Banning Practices?

Postby lost_shaman » Fri May 02, 2008 6:27 am

Access Denied wrote:[TJ any chance you could briefly summarize your concerns with wrt to your experience with the "Fair Skeptics" as it related to O'Hare assuming there are any unresolved issues? I know personally I strongly suspect the ATS branded "00000000" photo was an inside job by Ritzmann as I'm sure many others do as well. Same goes for "eyewitness" but that's probably a subject worthy of it's own thread...


O.k. I'm starting to get tired of hearing how this (O'Hare 2006) was some conspiracy! The truth is that I was a part of this ATS 'thread' and I did a lot of research concerning this 'incident'. In fact, if you search hard enough you can find my opinion on several forums and even in the NARCAP report itself!
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Re: ATS Hoax Involvement?

Postby torbjon » Fri May 02, 2008 8:41 am

TheSkepticOverlord:

"Yikes... I've not seen that before, and it's massively long... could you summarize one or two of the key points?"

Actually, you have seen it before, long ago. You saw, you got ticked off, you closed forum, you banned members, time passed, you forgot what went down *shrugs* We're all only human, yes?

Access Denied:

"TJ any chance you could briefly summarize your concerns wrt to your experience with the "Fair Skeptics" as it related to O'Hare assuming there are any unresolved issues?"

It's not that long, in fact it is probably shorter than a page full of forum posts... just scroll faster, a lot of stuff is repeated...

Lost Shaman:

"O.k. I'm starting to get tired of hearing how this (O'Hare 2006) was some conspiracy! The truth is that I was a part of this ATS 'thread' and I did a lot of research concerning this 'incident'. In fact, if you search hard enough you can find my opinion on several forums and even in the NARCAP report itself!"

This is my opening statement on the page in question which summarizes my feelings regarding the actual incident In Chicago:

"Let me begin by saying that I do indeed believe that 'something happened' at the Chicago O'Hare Airport on November 7, 2006.

What that 'something' was is any ones guess.

The following data set is by no means meant to detract from whatever it was that went down on that day.

Rather, the following data set and comments are meant to document a rather curious chain of events that took place on the AboveTopSecret.com forum regarding this event, and to present additional data either not available or not presented on that site."

What happened In Chicago and what happened at ats are two different events.

YES, you put a lot of time and energy into that project. So did a lot of other people. SOME of that time and energy (and my little page is by no means all of it) was locked, closed, and deleted.

My involvement regarding that event:

At that time I was not spending much time in open forum. I had been slapped down a few times for being me and so I was quite happy to be invited to play in a private little sandbox behind closed doors. I was endeavoring to be a good boy and to do quality productive work. When this event started to take off I began to receive numerous U2Us from folks I'd Never even chatted with before. Some were heavy hitters (long time members in good standing with many points) expressing their concern about the validity of the actual event itself And the way it was being handled on ats. I too shared those concerns but was more surprised by the fact that folks were sharing Their concerns with ME, joe blow nobody who was on double secret probation and hiding in private little playpen.

I did not voice any concerns or cause any problems in open forum, the few posts I made there were Very P.C.

In Private I laid it all out there, the things I had noticed, the things Other people had noticed, various observations, and data I had managed to gather on my own.

If anybody cares to actually Take The Time to Read the page linked above it should be rather obvious that I was trying to Help, not Hurt.

As stated on that page, I was on my way back to the Fair Skeptics forum with additional photographic evidence depicting the weather conditions in Chicago on that day when I discovered I could no longer log in.

I then went on to document how I used the Official ATS CONTACT US form in an attempt to discover what the problem was and to this date have yet to receive a response.

When it became obvious that I was not going to get a reply I did what any red blooded Alaskan bozoboy would do; I got ticked off and put all of the data that I had onto a web page.

When more time passed and still no response I allowed my reproductive organs to take over and I deleted the folder which contained all of my data, links, the original unaltered 00000000 pic, everything I had except that page which is online, and said to 'ell with it and them.

As more time passed and I cooled down a bit I decided that deleting everything was probably not the smartest thing on the planet to do so I searched the computer for any salvageable data.

Pics of my ex wife with her boyfriend I could find. Spam pics of cute kitty cats in interesting situations I could find. Banner ad pics for sites I would never go to in a million years I could find. Numerous copies of the altered / product branded 000000 pic I could find... but my original copy of the unaltered, non product branded 00000000 pic I could not which still frustrates me to no end.

According to S.O. the ORIGINAL image was deleted, leaving only the tampered image to work with.

Lost Shaman, a question for you if I may?

Would you consider tampering with evidence and the deletion of original copies to be a "no no" in the realms of research?

Again, I'm not talking about what happened In Chicago. I'm talking things that happened at ats. The two events are completely separate.

For the record I am 100% aware of the fact that the data presented on my page is 100% hearsay, there is No Proof whatsoever that it is an accurate reflection of reality, there is not one scrap of evidence anywhere to back me up, that I am 100% capable of fabricating the entire thing, and that I Will Not Argue about it. If folks want to believe it, fine. If folks don't want to believe it, fine. All anybody has to go on regarding the data on that page is My Word, which is worth about as much as the paper it's printed on.

It is now pushing 0400 in my neck of the woods. Three hours until duty calls.

Good night, and have a pleasant tomorrow.
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Re: ATS Banning Practices?

Postby TheSkepticOverlord » Fri May 02, 2008 2:09 pm

Access Denied wrote:Wow, that was quick. Now that’s what I call customer service!

We have a newly retooled search facility that makes such things pretty easy these days.

Access Denied wrote:While you’re at it think could you try to find my posts?

Are these them?
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread310588/pg1
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread296934/pg1
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread293234/pg1
Pretty active here too...
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread225616/pg1
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Re: ATS Hoax Involvement?

Postby TheSkepticOverlord » Fri May 02, 2008 2:18 pm

torbjon wrote:Actually, you have seen it before, long ago. You saw, you got ticked off, you closed forum, you banned members, time passed, you forgot what went down *shrugs* We're all only human, yes?

I think I recall it now... the format didn't look familiar though.

You have to understand that, as time goes on and with so much happening on ATS, it's difficult to immediately remember the specifics in some of these events. For those who were intimately involved, the memory may be exceptionally clear... but for those of us with divided time among dozens of things, the memory becomes cloudy.


torbjon wrote:According to S.O. the ORIGINAL image was deleted, leaving only the tampered image to work with.

Where did we say that? I think the unaltered original is still on the server... I'm relatively certain it was just renamed, not deleted, to avoid direct-linking to the "unbranded" version. Mark facilitated the delivery of the unaltered original version to the Chicago Tribune, he can speak better about the reaction received from the eye witnesses of the event after that.
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Re: ATS Hoax Involvement?

Postby lost_shaman » Fri May 02, 2008 4:28 pm

torbjon wrote:This is my opening statement on the page in question which summarizes my feelings regarding the actual incident In Chicago:

"Let me begin by saying that I do indeed believe that 'something happened' at the Chicago O'Hare Airport on November 7, 2006.

(snip)

What happened In Chicago and what happened at ats are two different events.


Hey torbjon,

Clearly we are on the same page here.





torbjon wrote:Lost Shaman, a question for you if I may?

Would you consider tampering with evidence and the deletion of original copies to be a "no no" in the realms of research?

Again, I'm not talking about what happened In Chicago. I'm talking things that happened at ats. The two events are completely separate.


Well, yeah I'd consider it to be a "no no".
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Re: ATS Hoax Involvement?

Postby lost_shaman » Fri May 02, 2008 5:27 pm

TheSkepticOverlord wrote:
torbjon wrote:According to S.O. the ORIGINAL image was deleted, leaving only the tampered image to work with.

Where did we say that? I think the unaltered original is still on the server... I'm relatively certain it was just renamed, not deleted, to avoid direct-linking to the "unbranded" version.


Posted on page 33 of the O'Hare thread you wrote...

reply posted on 24-1-2007 @ 12:30 PM by SkepticOverlord


Anticipating "crazy" attention, I did watermark the image, but renamed the original.

You can still gain access to the uploaded original file here:
atsmedia.cachefly.net...


Full link here... http://atsmedia.cachefly.net/uploads/at ... 3-orig.jpg
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Re: ATS Hoax Involvement?

Postby TheSkepticOverlord » Fri May 02, 2008 6:15 pm

Thanks Lost Shaman, didn't get a chance to go looking for it yet.

torbjon wrote:According to S.O. the ORIGINAL image was deleted, leaving only the tampered image to work with.
Lost Shaman, a question for you if I may?
Would you consider tampering with evidence and the deletion of original copies to be a "no no" in the realms of research?
Again, I'm not talking about what happened In Chicago. I'm talking things that happened at ats. The two events are completely separate.

So, you were wrong about this... and it turns out it was something posted in public and still available to the public. A rather embarrassing error for someone who is attempting to present themselves as a researcher. Care to consider that other aspects of your lengthy conjecture might be wrong?
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Re: ATS Hoax Involvement?

Postby Shawnna » Fri May 02, 2008 6:41 pm

TheSkepticOverlord wrote:Thanks Lost Shaman, didn't get a chance to go looking for it yet.

torbjon wrote:According to S.O. the ORIGINAL image was deleted, leaving only the tampered image to work with.
Lost Shaman, a question for you if I may?
Would you consider tampering with evidence and the deletion of original copies to be a "no no" in the realms of research?
Again, I'm not talking about what happened In Chicago. I'm talking things that happened at ats. The two events are completely separate.

So, you were wrong about this... and it turns out it was something posted in public and still available to the public. A rather embarrassing error for someone who is attempting to present themselves as a researcher. Care to consider that other aspects of your lengthy conjecture might be wrong?


Nice try, Bill. I'm sure TJ will have an appropriate response so won't even comment on this attempt to deflect.

Questions I have right now are:

Why would ATS feel the need to watermark an image to begin with? Why does ATS believe it needs to have exclusive rights to the posts by it's members?

*taking a deep breath*

That's it for now.
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