ATS Hoax Involvement?

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Re: ATS Hoax Involvement?

Postby TheSkepticOverlord » Fri May 02, 2008 7:18 pm

Shawnna wrote:Why would ATS feel the need to watermark an image to begin with? Why does ATS believe it needs to have exclusive rights to the posts by it's members?


First, we don't have the exclusive rights... our terms and conditions state:
3) Content Copyright: By posting on this message board, you relinquish all exclusive copyright privileges to the material you post and you grant The Owners non-exclusive rights to publish your posts in perpetuity in all forms protected under our ATS Creative Commons License. The Above Network, LLC has the authority to decide to display your postings or not, and modify your posts to remove offensive material, modify your post title to accurately reflect content, remove vulgar comments, remove insults or delete any other content deemed inappropriate, at our discretion.


Next, we seek to preserve the context of all posts, which is why our creative commons deed requests that any use of a post points back to the entire thread, along with giving the author full credit. As I'm sure you know, one post out of context from a big thread can be misleading as the topic almost always evolves and the post may no longer be an accurate reflection of the opinions of those involved.

In the case of the image, with so many other O'Hare images cropping up, we want to ensure that some mechanism was in place that signified the origin of the image... a member of ATS. The image, in context with the thread and the detailed analysis and resulting split decision on fraud-or-not is an important piece of the puzzle. I'm sure you've seen "UFO photos" that have circulated far and wide with such frequency that the origins are now fuzzy, or completely unknown.

I'm sure you're not going to be satisfied with these two points, as you've likely made up your own mind and believe monetary considerations drive our every decision.
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Re: ATS Hoax Involvement?

Postby Shawnna » Fri May 02, 2008 8:15 pm

TheSkepticOverlord wrote:
Shawnna wrote:Why would ATS feel the need to watermark an image to begin with? Why does ATS believe it needs to have exclusive rights to the posts by it's members?


First, we don't have the exclusive rights... our terms and conditions state:
3) Content Copyright: By posting on this message board, you relinquish all exclusive copyright privileges to the material you post and you grant The Owners non-exclusive rights to publish your posts in perpetuity in all forms protected under our ATS Creative Commons License. The Above Network, LLC has the authority to decide to display your postings or not, and modify your posts to remove offensive material, modify your post title to accurately reflect content, remove vulgar comments, remove insults or delete any other content deemed inappropriate, at our discretion.


Yep - and this sounds just like the kind of lawyer talk designed to give ATS an advantage when anyone with any credibility wants to challenge the ATS-local school of thought designed to sway the masses. Why would any serious researcher agree to these terms???

Bottom line is - they wouldn't as posting solid evidence of their scientific work and/or position would result in relinguishing any exclusive copyright they might have over that work.


:shakeshead:


TheSkepticOverlord wrote:Next, we seek to preserve the context of all posts, which is why our creative commons deed requests that any use of a post points back to the entire thread, along with giving the author full credit. As I'm sure you know, one post out of context from a big thread can be misleading as the topic almost always evolves and the post may no longer be an accurate reflection of the opinions of those involved.


You're kidding, right? Would you like me to start uploading all of the .pdf's I've had to create of posts that have ultimately disappeared at the hands of ATS owners and/or mods?

I can't believe you posted this with a straight face Bill.

:mndcntrol:

TheSkepticOverlord wrote:In the case of the image, with so many other O'Hare images cropping up, we want to ensure that some mechanism was in place that signified the origin of the image... a member of ATS. The image, in context with the thread and the detailed analysis and resulting split decision on fraud-or-not is an important piece of the puzzle. I'm sure you've seen "UFO photos" that have circulated far and wide with such frequency that the origins are now fuzzy, or completely unknown.

I'm sure you're not going to be satisfied with these two points, as you've likely made up your own mind and believe monetary considerations drive our every decision.



You're right, I'm not satisfied. I've grown quite competent at identifying horseshit when I see/smell it.

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Re: ATS Hoax Involvement?

Postby TheSkepticOverlord » Fri May 02, 2008 8:42 pm

Shawnna wrote:Bottom line is - they wouldn't as posting solid evidence of their scientific work and/or position would result in relinguishing any exclusive copyright they might have over that work.

We've honored a few requests in the past from writers and such that have gotten serious based on their ATS experience, and have removed specific posts that would conflict with their publishing efforts. We're only a-holes to those with preconceived notions based on misconceptions born of assumptions that were inspired by lies.


Shawnna wrote:You're kidding, right? Would you like me to start uploading all of the .pdf's I've had to create of posts that have ultimately disappeared at the hands of ATS owners and/or mods?

Lots of posts are deleted for lots of reasons... do you have something specific in mind?


Shawnna wrote:I've grown quite competent at identifying horseshit when I see/smell it.

And I've gotten really good at identifying the taste of sour grapes. So far, in all the "ATS Watch" threads and posts here, I've not seen anything that amounts to more than sour grapes or disgruntled attitudes.

Is there any meat?
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Re: ATS Hoax Involvement?

Postby Shawnna » Fri May 02, 2008 9:56 pm

So Bill, which statement below - both made in the last 12 hours in this very thread - is accurate?


TheSkepticOverlord wrote:Next, we seek to preserve the context of all posts, which is why our creative commons deed requests that any use of a post points back to the entire thread, along with giving the author full credit. As I'm sure you know, one post out of context from a big thread can be misleading as the topic almost always evolves and the post may no longer be an accurate reflection of the opinions of those involved.


OR

TheSkepticOverlord wrote:Lots of posts are deleted for lots of reasons...



:roll:
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Re: ATS Hoax Involvement?

Postby TheSkepticOverlord » Fri May 02, 2008 10:15 pm

Shawnna wrote:both made in the last 12 hours in this very thread - is accurate?


Both... what would make you think either is not correct?
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Re: ATS Hoax Involvement?

Postby MrPenny » Fri May 02, 2008 10:24 pm

I'd have to second that. Either statement could be accurate. Of course, either could be false....the point being, they are exclusive of each other and one has no bearing on the other.

Finally....is this line of discourse going somewhere?
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Re: ATS Hoax Involvement?

Postby TheSkepticOverlord » Fri May 02, 2008 11:05 pm

MrPenny wrote:is this line of discourse going somewhere?

Damn good question.
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Re: ATS Hoax Involvement?

Postby Shawnna » Fri May 02, 2008 11:49 pm

MrPenny wrote:I'd have to second that. Either statement could be accurate. Of course, either could be false....the point being, they are exclusive of each other and one has no bearing on the other.

Finally....is this line of discourse going somewhere?



I couldn't disagree more. Either ATS preserves threads and posts in their entirety or they do not. You can't have it both ways.

And you're right about this discourse going no where. There is no way in hell Bill, Mark or Simon will ever concede that they've done anything that would in any way reflect negatively on ATS - period. Their own hubris and personal greed won't allow that.

And there's no way I will ever say anything that reflects positively on ATS either.

So - we can agree to disagree and have a nice weekend!

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Re: ATS Hoax Involvement?

Postby TheSkepticOverlord » Sat May 03, 2008 12:18 am

Shawnna wrote:Either ATS preserves threads and posts in their entirety or they do not. You can't have it both ways.

Sure you can. We do our best to ensure threads remain intact. But when we get posts that are contrary to our terms and conditions, we consider removal... simple.


we can agree to disagree and have a nice weekend!

No.

You've made some claims and implied we're involved with hoaxes, back it up with proof. Simple.
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Re: ATS Hoax Involvement?

Postby torbjon » Sat May 03, 2008 3:08 am

Interesting.

For the time being I am going to try to avoid excessive quoting and just friendly chit chat my way through this. I'm sure we are all up to speed enough to follow what is going on, if not just scroll back a bit and read what has transpired on this (currently) short thread.

TheSkepticOverlord:

Yes, I'm aware of how faulty memories can be, especially with the passage of time. I do not condemn people for not remembering things (yourself included) As I stated, we are only human. Because my own memory is less than stellar I have gotten into the habit of documenting my life on a daily basis. I am reminded of that line from the third Indiana Jones movie "I wrote in my diary so I wouldn't Have to remember" *laughs*

I am also well aware of the fact that past documentation is subject to present and future interpretations, and that those current or future interpretations may not be accurate reflections of past realities.

You made a nice polite little slam against me for (perhaps) making a mistake regarding the original image. Earlier in this thread you said something like 'yikes, I had never seen that before' and then later said some thing like 'I had seen that before but not in that context' or some such... So, (perhaps) you are capable of making mistakes too, yes? After all, we are only human. I do not condemn you nor think less of you for being only human. Actually, I find it quite refreshing. If me being only human somehow makes me Less than human in your eyes or the in the eyes of the people who read this, so be it. I can live with that.

But let's talk a little bit about my 'mistake'.

Seeing Lost Shamans post I decided to go have a peek at your web site, page 33 of the O'Hare thread. I have not been to your web site in a long time. The very first thing I noticed I found to be quite shocking and it surprised me to no end. Since I am Not a member of your web site I will require some verification on this, but the first thing I noticed as a Visitor to your site was that the post ID / Tracking numbers have been replaced with Date / Time stamps. Now perhaps members get to see the ID / Tracking numbers and Visitors can only see Date / Time stamps, I don't know. If someone could verify that for me that information may prove helpful. I can only work with the information that I have at my disposal.

Using Only Date / Time stamps for post identification makes it much easier to insert posts into a thread at a later date than when each post was tagged with it's own unique ID / Tracking number, which I am NOT accusing you or anyone of doing, merely stating the fact. Looking at page 33 of the O'Hare thread I see that both you and Bluegate have posts with the same Date / Time stamp, which is perfectly normal and acceptable behavior for that type of identification system. I'm sure there are Thousands of posts on your site with identical Date / Time stamps, that is how that type of system works. However, this type of repeating ID number would Never have occurred with the old system where each post received a unique, sequential ID / Tracking number.

So, the assumption is, that when I was still a member, a member who had been granted some special privileges by being invited into a private behind the scenes working group, a member who was very much interested in the O'Hare incident and spending a great deal of time studying it, a member who was watching the O'Hare thread like a hawk for any tiny bit of information he could find and examining not only the actual O'Hare incident itself but also the way it was unfolding on ats, this member somehow managed to completely and totally MISS a crucial piece of information posted by not joe blow nobody but The Man himself. The Man who was Also a member of the private behind the scenes working group. The Man who (at that time) said member had a great deal of trust and respect for. And The Man who (at that time) said member was extremely grateful to for allowing said member to not only continue to be a member of your site but also who allowed said member to participate in a special, private working group.

Interesting assumption.

I will concede that it is a distinct possibility. Stranger things have been known to happen and I am, indeed, only human.

However, without access to post ID / Tracking numbers I have to entertain the notion, no matter how far fetched, no matter wild and crazy, no matter how zillion to one the odds Against it may be, that there is an incredibly slim chance that maybe, just maybe (when pigs can fly kind of maybe) that Perhaps the post in question was inserted into the thread at some point in time After I stopped paying attention to the thread. Stranger things have been known to happen. We are, after all, only human.

Again, I am NOT accusing you or anyone of the 'slim chance' scenario and am more than willing to concede to the 'interesting assumption' scenario as that makes life easier for you, easier for me (as the point is moot, with no way to prove or disprove it) I have no problems being labeled a dunderheaded fool if that is what people wish to believe, and I have no intentions of arguing a point that can never be proven.

As an aside, the statement that the original image had been deleted was given to me in private, I have no way of proving that either, so I am more than happy to concede that that statement was Never Made.

There.

I have addressed my 'mistake', I have conceded all of the points I am willing to concede, and once again I am very disappointed in you TheSkepticOverlord. You were presented with an opportunity to address the Issues (censorship on ats) and instead chose to attack the person and ignore the data with the exception of that One bit of data you could use to attack the person.

The issue is Hoaxes on ATS, do they take place, and is there censorship of data and member banning in order to perpetuate a Hoax?

The question is Why was the entire Fair Skeptics sub forum of ats, complete with the data it contained, locked and then deleted? Why were certain members banned for presenting that data in private forum? What was so T&C breaking about that data being presented in private forum? Why was none of the data ever taken to open forum for peer review? Why were none of the polite (and later, more formal) requests for information submitted via the official ATS CONTACT US form regarding my inability to log in Never Addressed after many months despite the auto responder stating quite clearly that someone Would Reply within 48 hours? Why Why Why?

I personally neither expect nor request answers to the above questions although others may.

In other parts of this forum you kept asking for Specific Examples of Censorship on ATS. My Personal experience with the Fair Skeptics forum is a Specific Example of the type of censorship we are discussing here.

You've (presumably) deleted your data regarding that event.

I've posted my data online (which, of course, is hearsay and worthless)

These people were also members of the Fair Skeptics sub forum on ats,

armap
beachcoma
behindthescenes
captainlazy
cheepnis
dracotic
eaglewingz
fredt
gazrok
ignorant_ape
irma
jritzmann
lost_shaman
outrageo
scramjet76
sigung86
skepticoverlord
skip_brilliantine
sophismata
spines
spreadthetruth
springer
supercheetah
swatmedic
thelibra
toasty
torbjon
wswbkbroiler

perhaps they should be contacted to see if they have any information they wish to share regarding this subject.

I've done my bit for god and country and doubt that I have anything else of value to contribute regarding this subject but will continue to keep an eye on this and other threads and will continue to help to the best of my ability whenever possible.

Good night, good luck, and have a pleasant tomorrow.
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Re: ATS Hoax Involvement?

Postby Access Denied » Sat May 03, 2008 3:30 am

torbjon wrote:I then went on to document how I used the Official ATS CONTACT US form in an attempt to discover what the problem was and to this date have yet to receive a response.

Bill, is there some reason why you haven’t responded to TJ’s repeated calls for an explanation? I think TJ is entitled to an answer as to why his (and others I presume?) work was apparently flushed down the drain and he was banned.

I’ve read his page several times and I think there’s enough circumstantial evidence there for people to be reasonably concerned he may have been silenced in order to prevent him and others from getting too close to the “truth”… whatever that is. That is of course unless he’s just another disgruntled member with an axe to grind and he made it all up. :)

TheSkepticOverlord wrote:We have a newly retooled search facility that makes such things pretty easy these days.

I’m confused, are you saying you used the new search facility to find and recover a trashed thread? Do I need to be a member to be able to do that?

TheSkepticOverlord wrote:Are these them?

No, I meant the 450 posts and threads of mine you deleted and then later claimed you had no recollection of and then when reminded of it in the “Fair Skeptics” thread on ATS your story changed as to why they couldn’t be recovered.

[yes that’s already all documented here]

But I digress…

[although IIRC one or more of Shawnna’s posts were deleted in that thread or during that same time frame]

TheSkepticOverlord wrote:Mark facilitated the delivery of the unaltered original version to the Chicago Tribune, he can speak better about the reaction received from the eye witnesses of the event after that.

So, if we conjecture that someone took all these “eyewitness” accounts and fabricated a photo to “match”… you know sort of like a police sketch artist would do… and (some or all?) the witnesses go “yeah that’s it” that’s compelling because?

TheSkepticOverlord wrote:Care to consider that other aspects of your lengthy conjecture might be wrong?

I’m confused again, wasn’t the image made available only after folks complained it was missing? (speaking of keeping things in context LS) And your justification for “hiding” it in the first place was to offer the Chicago Tribune an exclusive? Are you also now saying “00000000” is a “member”of ATS and that’s why you get to ‘keep” it. Wasn’t that photo submitted anonymously using the system you created after the O’Hare thread was started expressly for this very purpose? (and then later dispensed with entirely?)

I believe Mark said “0000000” was “hiding behind a proxy server”. Would you be willing to share that information in confidence with Steve? Also, was it not stated that only you (as to opposed normally the entire admin/mod staff) would be privy to that information wrt to any anonymous posts/photos submitted?

Shawnna wrote:You're right, I'm not satisfied. I've grown quite competent at identifying horseshit when I see/smell it.

I understand how frustrating this can be Shawnna but please, let’s try to keep this as professional as possible. I know from personal experience you can be a formidable debate opponent when you set your mind to it. ;)

TheSkepticOverlord wrote:Lots of posts are deleted for lots of reasons... do you have something specific in mind?

Do you really need to see more examples? How much more evidence does it take before you admit the fact that ATS practices censorship of information regardless of whether or not it violates the T&C?

Borrowing a line right out your own playbook…care to consider that other aspects of your lengthy conjecture might be wrong?

I think these questions need to be answered before Shawnna or anyone else is “required” to submit more evidence on this particular point. Obviously there is much more work that needs to be done to validate or disprove the hypothesis proposed by the title of this thread.

TheSkepticOverlord wrote:So far, in all the "ATS Watch" threads and posts here, I've not seen anything that amounts to more than sour grapes or disgruntled attitudes.

Well, what you see and what others not involved here see might be two different things. You seem to use the term “disgruntled members” quite frequently as if that’s reason enough alone to discount their concerns? Are you not concerned that they just might have a valid reason for their “sour grapes” attitude?

TheSkepticOverlord wrote:Is there any meat?

Indeed the sole purpose of ATS Watch is to attempt to answer that question. It’s only been “open for business” less than a week. Are you in some kind of hurry?
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Re: ATS Hoax Involvement?

Postby TheSkepticOverlord » Sat May 03, 2008 5:12 am

torbjon wrote:Earlier in this thread you said something like 'yikes, I had never seen that before' and then later said some thing like 'I had seen that before but not in that context' or some such...

Right... you had originally posted much of that in 2 or 3 posts in a thread in the Fair Skeptics forum, right? That was the context in which I first saw it... not the link shown here.


torbjon wrote:Since I am Not a member of your web site I will require some verification on this, but the first thing I noticed as a Visitor to your site was that the post ID / Tracking numbers have been replaced with Date / Time stamps.

Yes, non-members see a limited version (no avatars and mini-profile), and in the case of the postID, that's no longer being show for members as well (replaced by a [this post] link).


torbjon wrote:Using Only Date / Time stamps for post identification makes it much easier to insert posts into a thread at a later date than when each post was tagged with it's own unique ID / Tracking number, which I am NOT accusing you or anyone of doing, merely stating the fact.

You certainly are making the accusation by bringing it up.
However, the "single post" function shows the individual post here:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/single/2899700.html
The "2899700.html" part is the numeric postID in the database.


a member who was very much interested in the O'Hare incident and spending a great deal of time studying it, a member who was watching the O'Hare thread like a hawk

Actually... if you recall, for some time after the "Fair Skeptics" forum was created, not much was happening and no one could agree upon a topic on which to focus. After some prodding by me, the newly-formed group agreed to spend time looking into the O'Hare incident... but not until after I urged everyone to stop talking about doing something, and start doing something.


Perhaps the post in question was inserted into the thread at some point in time After I stopped paying attention to the thread.

See, you are accusing me or some other ATS "force" of inserting the post. But then, I showed you the single-post with postID above... and it won't take much research to discover that the database schema on which ATS is based (XMB Board) is such that postID's cannot be created, it's an auto-number index assigned to new content as it enters the database.


The question is Why was the entire Fair Skeptics sub forum of ats, complete with the data it contained, locked and then deleted?

Because it failed and we would not suffer special privileges to people who would use our resources to scheme up false conspiracy theories about us.


Why were certain members banned for presenting that data in private forum?

As I recall you were the only member banned from the group. It was a unilateral decision of the Amigos at the time.


You've (presumably) deleted your data regarding that event.

All threads from the Fair Skeptics forum still exist... just not available to the public.
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Re: ATS Hoax Involvement?

Postby TheSkepticOverlord » Sat May 03, 2008 5:38 am

Access Denied wrote: That is of course unless he’s just another disgruntled member with an axe to grind and he made it all up. :)

To some degree... though he seems to have made up a great deal before he was banned. He would not be the first ATS member who was banned for making up stories about us, and certainly won't be the last.


are you saying you used the new search facility to find and recover a trashed thread?

The thread I showed you wasn't in the trash.


No, I meant the 450 posts and threads of mine you deleted and then later claimed you had no recollection of

Oh... that's you? I believe Simon fessed up that he accidentally hit the "Delete All Posts" button instead of applying a post ban in the Admin Console (anyone familiar with old versions of XMB board can confirm the link to delete posts is in an inconvenient position). As I recall, you didn't accept that explanation very well.


So, if we conjecture that someone took all these “eyewitness” accounts and fabricated a photo to “match”

That's certainly not what Mark did, but I can speak for the provenience of the original image as we know very little of it.


I’m confused again, wasn’t the image made available only after folks complained it was missing?

No, it was always available.


And your justification for “hiding” it in the first place was to offer the Chicago Tribune an exclusive?

Nope. It was never hidden, and no special treatment was offered the Tribune.


Are you also now saying “00000000” is a “member”of ATS and that’s why you get to ‘keep” it.

He did join ATS and post the image: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thr ... pid2898150
We're not "keeping it," we're using it.


Wasn’t that photo submitted anonymously using the system you created after the O’Hare thread was started expressly for this very purpose? (and then later dispensed with entirely?)

No the member used the standard upload form. Our camera phone submission system automatically placed a completely different watermark for camera phone images.


I believe Mark said “0000000” was “hiding behind a proxy server”. Would you be willing to share that information in confidence with Steve?

That would violate our privacy policy.



Do you really need to see more examples? How much more evidence does it take before you admit the fact that ATS practices censorship of information regardless of whether or not it violates the T&C?

Well... we still haven't discussed anything specific here, have we?


I think these questions need to be answered before Shawnna or anyone else is “required” to submit more evidence on this particular point.

Should not the people making claims of wrong-doing or other malfeasance of some sort be expected to provide some sort of evidence of such? Otherwise, it's hard for me to prove a negative.



You seem to use the term “disgruntled members” quite frequently as if that’s reason enough alone to discount their concerns?

To some degree, yes. It's unfortunate, and I really do wish that we somehow, through some magic, found a way to please everyone all the time. But the fact remains that we made several key decisions about the management of ATS and the maintenance of decorum that end up being difficult for some people. We know we're not for everyone, and we make no excuses for that.

It's terrible that people forge relationships and become well-attached to spending time on ATS, only to see those relationships and time investments disrupted because of fundamental misunderstandings with how we believe we need to run the site for the majority of members. It's natural for people to become upset and bitter, and lash out at the source of the bitterness. Sometimes it subsides, sometimes it inspires change and they return, and sometimes it manifests itself in the raking of muck.

We can't loosen the hard-fought standards that most of our members expect because we're concerned about the potential reaction of a member over their banning.


Are you not concerned that they just might have a valid reason for their “sour grapes” attitude?

What I mentioned about is not an invalid reason for sour grapes. Making up stories about me and ATS is wrong, but I tend to completely understand how it happens.


Are you in some kind of hurry?

I'm just wondering where the substance is. There's lots of wild tales about me, Simon, Mark, and ATS floating about the Interwebs... it gets tedious when we're alerted to new bits and pieces starting up.
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Re: ATS Hoax Involvement?

Postby torbjon » Sat May 03, 2008 6:43 am

TheSkepticOverlord:

Again, I'll avoid using excessive quoting in my reply as I find that tactic to be somewhat insulting to the intelligence of the people trying to read this conversation and that by only choosing certain elements to address while ignoring other elements it derails and detracts from the conversation as a whole.

Many people seem to do the selective quoting thing, I myself have done it upon occasion, but I still find it to be a crass and vulgar tactic.

You have addressed certain issues and ignored others. The issues you've chosen to address are an attack against the person and not the data or the event.

So be it.

I have always perceived you to be an exceptionally intelligent person. In the realm of online communities your intelligence and skills far surpass my own. I cannot and will not battle you on this level as you will always 'win'. In fact, I have no desire whatsoever to battle with you on Any level. Like you, I seek only the 'truth', whatever that may be.

If the 'truth' of the matter is that "torbjon is about as smart as a sack of hammers, is a disgruntled ex ats member with an ax to grind and is out for revenge" so be it. I would be very happy to see that 'truth' come to light. I am more than willing to accept responsibility for who and what I am in the court of public opinion.

You claim to be in possession of the entire Fair Skeptics forum.

Since you are indeed a 100% honest and up front individual with nothing to hide and nothing to be ashamed of would you be willing to post all of the data contained within that forum here for peer review?

Oh, and Cheepnis was also banned... whether is was from something he did in FS or elsewhere, I do not know.
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Re: ATS Hoax Involvement?

Postby torbjon » Sat May 03, 2008 7:18 am

hmmm...

there may be some action going on as I type this so please forgive me if I get out out of synch.

TheSkepticOverlord:

If I'm reading your reply to AD correctly, (and I am probably not) the Three Amigos, at that time, perceived me to be a 'lone gunman' working alone, attempting to discredit ats, as opposed to a mouth piece, representing many concerned individuals, expressing those concerns in Private Forum in an effort to Help ats avoid a potentially embarrassing situation, is this correct?

I have to ask: If my goal was to 'cause problems' then why did I keep it all in Private Forum? I stated over and over again that if this stuff got out into the Open Forum area it could cause a lot of drama, that that was something that I wanted to Avoid, and that I had No Intentions of 'going public'. I stated quite clearly that I was trying to Help. I pointed out things that were causing unrest and suggested revising your tactics to deal with that unrest. I pointed out statements that seemed 'fishy' and that if confronted people need to be on their toes. (For example, Jeff Ritzmans statement that he had found Other Photographs taken from the same vantage point. I could not find any. Nor could anyone else. I pointed out that perhaps he should be prepared to back that statement up if anyone should ask, etc.)

As stated elsewhere in these forums, Many People were expressing a variety of concerns regarding the handling of that event on ats to ME, joe blow Nobody from nowhere. It was quite unnerving. Publicly I was very P.C. with them, stating simply that we were 'on it'.

Privately I posted everything I had found and everything other people had given to me, which got me and Cheepnis banned and the thread closed and locked.

Either my actions were Grossly Misinterpreted by you OR something posted hit close to home OR some third alternative I am too lame to figure out.
Expendable Guy. The show is no good without them.
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torbjon
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