ATS EXPOSED - hard facts not included

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Re: ATS EXPOSED - hard facts included

Postby Chorlton » Sun Jun 01, 2008 9:51 pm

TheSkepticOverlord wrote:
Chorlton wrote:The answers to your questions are here on this forum.

I've searched, read, and looked... and see nothing but rumor, innuendo, and wild conjecture from disgruntled former members who appear unable to let go of the fact they were banned from ATS.

And that statement alone shows you really dont understand whet weve been trying to say or why we said it.
Though as stated, I think you DO understand but choose to ignore what we have said.



I saw what you were up to pretty soon after you arrived here and it now looks like the daylight has dawned on others too.

Really? Who would that be? A handful of other disgruntled former members who are entertaining themselves making up stories about us?

Theres none so blind as a business owner who lives in lala land, or who tries to play games with people who know the game he's playing



I repeat my stance that 'this forum isnt for you' and you should be banned.

Laughable. You attempt take the "high ground" regarding the belief your (and others apparently) banning from ATS was unjustified and improper, yet you would like to ban me, only for the reason that this forum is about me. How hypocritical can one be?

I want you banned because, in Springers words "You simply dont get it" you dont or wont understand what weve been saying or why weve been saying it or are deliberately being obtuse and mischievous.
You would be banned on your own forum for the disingenuous comments you have made here, and the ducking diving and weaving.
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Re: ATS EXPOSED - hard facts included

Postby JiveTurkey » Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:59 am

TheSkepticOverlord wrote:Laughable. You attempt take the "high ground" regarding the belief your (and others apparently) banning from ATS was unjustified and improper, yet you would like to ban me, only for the reason that this forum is about me. How hypocritical can one be?



This forum is about you?? I thought it was ultimately about ATS?


Good to be here at RU, though, I'm on board with a few here so far as feeling that the conversation has been a bit "less than civil".

It should be pretty well known that I have absolutely zero use for Bill (SkepticOverlord), however, if he is going to be here in the attempt to state his side of the argument, a bit of civility should be shown from the members of RU. Expecting Bill to return this civility is an exercise in futility.

Of course, this isn't my forum and I am a firm believer of accepting the policies laid out by the forum owners so long as they are clear about those policies. RU seems to be pretty straightforward. Carry on.


Bill,

You asked for a few examples of members being banned while not violating the T&C of ATS. I'll give you a couple.

Usernames:

Boondock
Beachcoma
SimiusDei (myself)
TheDuckster
MajorMalfunction


Now, I know straight off where you'll go with my banning.

Save yourself the trouble of regurgitating the same old "you were a constant thorn in the side of staff members" crap.

While this may be true to an extent, I certainly wasn't filled in on it.

In the many months that I was there, I received one actual warning and one 3 day post ban because I was "circumventing censors" via the "s***" method of censorship.

After this time, I would (from time to time) receive a standard "it's time we had a talk" u2us from some of my staff buddies over there. They were ALWAYS over minor issues and I was never threatened or warned of a possible banning.

In fact, I was receiving applauses and POSITIVE u2us on a near constant basis during my last month there as well as being given "document archivist" status. Not that the status matters, but why give a "near constant thorn in the side" any "position" there??

It wasn't until the 1,000,000th thread about "ATS rules and regulations being flawed" (more specifically, my participation in that thread) and a podcast that I made that I was banned.

My participation in this thread was limited to my saying that the T&C at ATS was "too open to interpretation" and that they "needed to be clarified". As a result of my comments, I was attacked by you and the staff member "Infinite" repeatedly in that thread and also threads that I started afterwards that had nothing to do with the T&C of ATS.

During this time, there were also multiple insults hurled at me by you, infinite and Crakeur that were deleted and covered up after I had already seen them and to keep them from the "public eye".

As a result of this, I created a podcast to clarify what I was saying in the "ATS Rules" thread.

During this podcast, I called you "pompous" and also stressed that this was MY OPINION and that I was not out to "create drama".

As a result of your continuing to follow me around the site and take cheapshots at me, I started a u2u conversation with you. After several messages back and forth (that I thought were civil u2us from both ends), you made reference to what I called you in the podcast and it was during my reply to this that I found out that I was banned.

I was never given any warning and the only explanation that I was given was that I was a constant "thorn in the side" and that I had received numerous warnings. This is 100% untrue.


However, at least my banning was somewhat understandable.

Could you please explain the bannings of Boondock, Beachcoma, TheDuckster and MajorMalfunction??

Sure, MM is a "militant atheist"....but since when is this in violation of the T&C???

I don't recall anywhere in the T&C where it states that being even violently opposed to religion as being against the T&C.

I believe that if the staff of ATS would actually admit that there are times when members are singled out and harassed/banned because of the particular posts they make rubbing ppl the wrong way that ppl would actually be able to accept this and move on.

Why continue to deny that these things take place when they are so commonplace?


As far as Beachcoma and Boondock go, please don't even bother bringing up the BS of their "planning" to SPAM the ATS message boards with links or any of that crap. All of the owners of ATS have received proof from me that the ATS member AccessDenied (Firestar on my forum) started ALL of that crap and openly provoked members into those types of 'activities" as well as her constantly telling everyone that you had admitted to her that you read member u2us and banned members for things said in those u2us. Not to mention her telling nearly every member of my forum that you made comments to the effect of "competition would not be tolerated" and her being responsible for 99% of the u2u invitations that you guys are so fond of bringing up.

Strangely enough, she is still an active member of ATS and on a crusade of ass kissery that is pretty much unmatched in any forum community.

Why is it that so many members of ATS have been banned and then verbally torn apart by staff members of ATS in the public forums, yet, she is allowed to stick around and spread lies about former members???

Could it have anything to do with her "psuedo relationship" with the staff member (and "sales guru" according to the official abovenetwork website) Jeff Lombardy (aka:Lombozo). The fact that Lombozo is even allowed to retain employment with ATS is enough to keep ATS off the "moral highground" you so like to talk about. After several conversations with some of the higher level ATS staffers who aren't very fond of the policies of the ATS ownership, I know that you guys are well aware of his "amoral" activities.



While I don't expect you to discuss the Lombozo situation, I would like to hear (read?) your comments in regards to the bannings of TheDuckster, Boondock and Beachcoma. Supportive evidence would also be nice.

You response to the Lori (AccessDenied) situation would also be appreciated.

You don't have to discuss them on a personal level to address the questions asked.

You also don't need to feel bothered with responding to anything pertaining to my banning...I only cited it because you asked for examples from other members of RU earlier. Since I had first hand experience with it, it only makes sense that I include the example.

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Re: ATS EXPOSED - hard facts included

Postby TheSkepticOverlord » Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:30 pm

JiveTurkey wrote:I'm on board with a few here so far as feeling that the conversation has been a bit "less than civil".

Where have I been less than civil?


Boondock
Beachcoma

This has been explained that we had complaints of T&C violations in that they were recruiting ATS members... as well as public recruiting in threads by Boondock.

TheDuckster

Not banned.

MajorMalfunction

Numerous incidents of inappropriate thread disruption/derailment/trolling, and no end despite U2U's from staff.


Now, I know straight off where you'll go with my banning.
Save yourself the trouble of regurgitating the same old "you were a constant thorn in the side of staff members" crap.
While this may be true to an extent, I certainly wasn't filled in on it.

Sure you were... many times... especially after your obscenity-laced podcast where the only intent was to figure out how many times you could drop the f-bomb in one podcast. After that incident, our staff made it clear you were "on thin ice" so to speak, and you still insisted on pushing past the limits.
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Re: ATS EXPOSED - hard facts included

Postby torbjon » Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:07 pm

It keeps getting buried, you keep ignoring it, so I'll just keep asking it:

Bill / TheSkpeticOverlord:

What Exactly did I "manufacture"?

Please remember, I'm the one that has been talking SALT pretty much since the get go, have been pro actively trying to seek Solutions to problems, have been patient and civil...

You storm in here, accuse me of "manufacturing" stories, and then ignore my requests for clarification and my overtures of peace...

what gives?
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Re: ATS EXPOSED - hard facts included

Postby TheSkepticOverlord » Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:16 pm

torbjon wrote:What Exactly did I "manufacture"?

Am I incorrect in drawing the conclusion that your summary posted in the Fair Skeptics forum (and later on your site) was intended to state the case that we (ATS) we responsible for fabricating events related to the O'Hare UFO sighting?
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Re: ATS EXPOSED - hard facts included

Postby torbjon » Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:51 pm

TheSkepticOverlord wrote:
torbjon wrote:What Exactly did I "manufacture"?

Am I incorrect in drawing the conclusion that your summary posted in the Fair Skeptics forum (and later on your site) was intended to state the case that we (ATS) we responsible for fabricating events related to the O'Hare UFO sighting?


YES. You are incorrect in drawing that conclusion. You were incorrect then, and you are still incorrect now.

The actual posts, as they appeared in context on the Fair Skeptics forum NEVER stated or implied that ATS was fabricating that event.

The actual posts, as they appeared in context on the Fair Skeptics forum stated over and over again that it LOOKS THAT WAY to many members of your community, that there was sufficient circumstantial evidence to Warrant those suspicions by your members, and that I myself had found some things that seemed inconsistent.

Everything that you are perceiving as 'negative' was in reality an honest attempt to Help You avoid open forum drama and problems.

And I got the ax for that, the ax followed by the cold shoulder and then some nasty vibes and lastly accused of creating falsehoods.

All because you didn't take the time to actually Read the stuff. You saw a few buzz words, you flew off the handle and reacted with emotions.

Your system is FLAWED *pokes* It requires REFINEMENT.

ATS Watch is here to HELP you *pokes again*

YES, everyone here has valid reasons for being emotionally involved, many people are Angry at ATS or its staff and management, but once you cut past that anger and frustration what you got here is a buncha people who DON'T want to see ATS go away, they want it to be a Better Place for EVERYONE.

Think Nader. We don't want our cars to go away, we just want Air Bags and Seat Belts and it would be nice if the things didn't Blow Up when they get rear ended.

I feel that perhaps everybody needs to take a nice deep breath and ponder just what exactly it is they want from ATS Watch... honestly, if this is going to turn into a non productive "let's kill the dirty bastards" kind of game then I'm outta here.

thank you
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Re: ATS EXPOSED - hard facts included

Postby JiveTurkey » Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:37 pm

TheSkepticOverlord wrote:

Sure you were... many times... especially after your obscenity-laced podcast where the only intent was to figure out how many times you could drop the f-bomb in one podcast. After that incident, our staff made it clear you were "on thin ice" so to speak, and you still insisted on pushing past the limits.



This is absolute B.S.

The ONLY person who made any comment to me about that podcast was YOU.

I asked you to edit the 'cast for me because I forgot to tick the "Adult Content" warning.


The 'cast was about my extreme hatred for pedophiles and I made it clear that this was the reason for my "even more foul than usual" language.

In the T&C of the 'casts, it states that foul language is perfectly acceptable in the casts so long as they are labeled containing foul language.

Again, must be one of those rules left open to interpretation.


Even in your reply to me about the cast, you didn't state that I was on "thin ice".

99% of my communication with the staff of ATS, at that point, was civil and in a "friend" capacity.


Your response to this is crap.

Could you please dig up those examples of my constant warnings?? I must not have gotten them.

Also, I would appreciate you throwing up some examples of my "pushing past the limits".

The only verbal(non-official) warning I had for a good while before my banning was for calling a fellow member "silly".

Perhaps all of these warnings were "accidentally deleted" as well?? BEFORE I could read them, naturally.



Why did you fail to address the AccessDenied/Firestar/Lori question???

She was the PRIME offender of breaking the rules that you say boon and beachcoma violated. Why is she still around? Especially since it was her spearheading the whole mess that lead to many of my site's members hatred and distrust of ATS.




I didn't say you weren't being civil. Reread the opening to my entire post and you should see who I am addressing.
I DID say that expecting you to remain civil was an exercise in futility. Perhaps that was what you were referring to?

I do not believe you are being uncivil here. You are, however, being extremely evasive to questions of actual substance. And by substance, I mean questions that, if answered truthfully, will pretty much "prove" (as much as that is possible) the arguments some of the members of RU are bringing up.

Also, would you mind showing me where it states in the T&C that members are not allowed to send email links to other sites via u2u???

Simon made it quite clear that any contributing member was allowed to link to other sites in their sig. Why would the u2us be against the rules if it's okay for your PUBLIC sig to contain the links????


To the best of my knowledge....ATS' accessdenied was the ONLY member of my site that engaged in spamming u2us with ads for my site/forum. The few other members simply sent u2us to their ATS friends which was supposed to be within the T&C of the site.

If you can show me otherwise, I would certainly be interested.
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Re: ATS EXPOSED - hard facts included

Postby ryguy » Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:33 am

torbjon wrote:
I feel that perhaps everybody needs to take a nice deep breath and ponder just what exactly it is they want from ATS Watch... honestly, if this is going to turn into a non productive "let's kill the dirty bastards" kind of game then I'm outta here.

thank you
twj


I agree. We've seen plenty of folks go down the same road ATS is headed. It's sad to see, but it's just the way it is. A desire to attract the "insiders" with a safe place where they won't feel attacked or put under too much scrutiny. An environment where more people (hoping for more traffic) will feel comfortable telling their personal experiences. That's fine.

But it also creates an environment where hoaxers and con-artists thrive - so, simply enough, we need to watch for that, and bring it to the public the moment we see it. Just like it's difficult to steal a car when the security alarm starts blaring, attracting a crowd - we should work to make it difficult for hoaxers and con-artists to do what they do - by sounding the alarm here, when we see them over there, or anywhere else.

I see it as a public service - to never give the con-artists rest, or a safe haven, to do what they do. That's what I see in ATS Watch (similar to the Latrine with OM).

It's just sad and unfortunate that it's needed. But I think that it is - and it can be a good public service. A place of refuge for sane folk who would occasionally like a place to discuss things without the interference of the insane and delusional. Here - we still walk them out the door. And as far as I can see - it'll always be that way, whether or not it's good for business or traffic.

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Re: ATS EXPOSED - hard facts included

Postby torbjon » Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:43 am

Thanks Ry...

I feel that my attitude of "let's be a solution to the pollution" isn't too popular with some folks here... what's really driving me crazy though is that it doesn't seem too popular with mark and bill either... maybe they are just in total fight mode or something, I dunno.

oh well

break time for bozoboy

laters
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Re: ATS EXPOSED - hard facts included

Postby ryguy » Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:37 am

I can't say I blame them (Bill and Mark that is).

I mean - it would be like during the early days when a few groups recognized the dangers inherent in tobacco smoke and started blowing the whistle. I would imagine that even though the Tobacco industry knew that it causes cancer and is generally *bad* for the population...they still did what was best for the company, they kept selling tobacco. People paid for it, and more people kept coming. Increasing nicotine content improved revenue - so there you go.

Now - I certainly wouldn't have expected the Tobacco industry to say "well yes...we know that tobacco causes cancer, so there should definitely be a watchdog group to keep track of how many smokers get cancer because of tobacco."

To admit to the need of a Watchdog group is sort of an admission that there's a problem that needs to be monitored. Not that I'm comparing ATS to the Tobacco Industry..lol. But it's the best analogy I can come up with while I'm allowing myself to be distracted from work that I should be doing elsewhere....

I don't think you're going to see Bill and Mark embrace ATS Watch - it's just not going to happen. I think the best we can hope for is that they'll tolerate it without complaining too much...that they'll trust that we have the intellectual capacity to focus on keeping ATS moderation fair to both sides (skeptics/believers). After all, if moderators know that folks are watching, and will publicly report unfair actions - I would think that it would reduce the volume of trigger-happy moderating.

Does all that make sense? We're brainstorming here right? lol

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Re: ATS EXPOSED - hard facts included

Postby TheSkepticOverlord » Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:04 am

torbjon wrote:You are incorrect in drawing that conclusion.

The actual posts, as they appeared in context on the Fair Skeptics forum stated over and over again that it LOOKS THAT WAY to many members of your community,

That's a hell-of-a-hair to split.

Can you accept that, in my position, your commentary presenting how you believe it "LOOKS" was construed as presenting it as fact?


Everything that you are perceiving as 'negative' was in reality an honest attempt to Help You avoid open forum drama and problems.

If that's truly the intent (and I'm not the only one that assumed you intended otherwise), then you're due a big apology. This wouldn't be the first multi-party misunderstanding from within ATS, not will it likely be the last.

However... I'm unaware of "many members" that held the belief we (ATS) had any influence in the events at O'Hare, or the reporting thereof.


Your system is FLAWED *pokes* It requires REFINEMENT.

If by, "system" you mean our management philosophy... I never claimed perfection, and often referred to our approach as constantly in an evolutionary state. I believe it's very good, and as good as it presently can be, but not as good as it could be.

(more later)
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Re: ATS EXPOSED - hard facts included

Postby torbjon » Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:19 am

Hi Bill,

Look, Nola has a fever, it's late, but I'm going to just toss one word from your above post back atcha followed with a question.

The word is:

ASSUMED.

So, what you're saying is you all went ape poop over an Assumption and not One of you had the clarity of mind to simply ASK FIRST, SHOOT LATER?

Looking forward to the (more later) part,

Thanks for continuing the dialog.

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Re: ATS EXPOSED - hard facts included

Postby lost_shaman » Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:24 am

TheSkepticOverlord wrote:
Torbjon wrote:Everything that you are perceiving as 'negative' was in reality an honest attempt to Help You avoid open forum drama and problems.


If that's truly the intent (and I'm not the only one that assumed you intended otherwise), then you're due a big apology. This wouldn't be the first multi-party misunderstanding from within ATS, not will it likely be the last.


As a member of the 'Fair Skeptics' forum, at the time, my opinion is actually relevant. I have nothing to gain by taking anyones 'side' on this matter, my opinion based on having a front row seat simply is what it is.

I agree with Torbjon that "an honest attempt to Help You avoid open forum drama and problems" was his 'intent'. Personally, I was shocked to find that the 'Forum' had been closed over/after Torbjon's posts.


TheSkepticOverlord wrote:However... I'm unaware of "large numbers of members" that held the belief we (ATS) had any influence in the events at O'Hare, or the reporting thereof.


I'm unaware of those "large numbers of members" myself. I'll also note that other than Jeff Ritzmann I'm one of the few if not the only other ATS member(s) to have my 'real name' published in the NARCAP "O'Hare UFO Report", but I have an 'itchy' feeling that if we ask AD about "O'Hare" we might get a different answer. :mrgreen:
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Re: ATS EXPOSED - hard facts included

Postby torbjon » Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:35 am

excuse me,

I'm sorry,

but just when exactly did "many" become "large numbers"?

am I the Only bozo on this bus?
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Re: ATS EXPOSED - hard facts included

Postby Springer » Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:17 pm

@ Lost Shaman,
Not that it matters but my real name is in the NARCAP report as well. ;)

Torbjon, I think we owe you a huge apology... I have to agree that we ASSUMED your intent was to incite drama or cast doubt where there was no reason to cast it. Looking back we were catching all kinds of crap from hoaxers posting phony pictures and the "media" crediting them to us when we were the guys who were clearly labeling them as [HOAXES] and had two top level imaging experts working their butts off in an attempt to make some sense of it all.

Well, every time I assume something I generally make an ASS out of myself and someone else, looks like this time was no different... I won't speak for Bill but I believe your intentions were as you indicate here and we did, in fact jump the gun out of frustration and a huge amount of external pressure. The very same moment all of this (the O'Hare flap) was happening we were in the middle of creating our company out of thin air. There was way too much on our plates and we screwed the pooch.

I am sorry bro. I mean that.

@Ryan,
I think I actually could "embrace" ATS Watch to some degree as long as a little REALITY is kept in the neighborhood when the facts present themselves. For example it would be nice to see the subject line of the "(no)Hard Evidence" thread changed to reflect reality. I change topic titles for this reason a few times a week on ATS, it's just the right thing to do.

Along the same line, I actually read somewhere (maybe here?) that some person thinks we hoaxed O'Hare because I posted that I had been helping the Discovery Channel with the TV Show I was on since December but we didn't have any O'Hare action on ATS until late January. The amazing thing to me is that nobody considered the possibility that Discovery contacted me about a GENERIC UFOlogy show and when O'Hare became a hot topic we ADDED it to the existing treatment we had worked up over the winter.

This is how most of the B.S. about us starts, someone who doesn't understand what they are seeing, doesn't understand technology glitches, or so strongly believes THEIR POSITION IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT AND ATS MUST ALLOW THEM THEIR BULLY PULPIT(!) they go off on a tangent into lunacy that becomes a reality for the disenfranchised who are jonesing for ATS but can't get a fix because they are banned.

Now, Torbjon here appears to be a perfect example of where we screwed up, made a false assumption based on a communication breakdown. We then went on to ignore the lines of communication because we didn't think there was any reason to waste precious time on it because of our false assumption. As complex as that sounds it's pretty simple and pretty HUMAN. That being said it has lead to a multitude of yet more incorrect assumptions about us(Bill and I) fed by the paranoia, ignorance, bitterness, of the type I mention in the paragraph above who came in contact with Torbjon after his ban and our complete shunning of him. The sickest part is we brought this bit (Torjon's angst and derision and everyone else's that his fed into) on ourselves by being stupid! Wow...

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