Are the PTB behind ATS?

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Re: Are the PTB behind ATS?

Postby torbjon » Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:42 pm

ryguy wrote:
I repeat: Should we let our content be "MEMBER-DRIVEN" by the kind of paranoid-conspiracy-theory nonsense that elendal is publishing here about ATS?


well if you are asking for a member driven response to that then no, I don't think so. Personally I feel that ATS Watch needs to be a lot more united and focused. In the few weeks that this has been going on this section of RU has become incredibly cluttered (in my opinion)

Case in point my continued conversation with S.O. regarding site stats and metrics in a thread entitled 'are the ptb behind ats'... very educational, very enjoyable, very civil and polite, but I'm not sure it would be possible for us to be any farther off topic, ya know?

I have never perceived ATS Watch as being a Kill ATS site. I keep making the analogy of Ralph Nadar and the Automobile manufacturers.

There's Going to be cars. We Can't Stop That and you'd have better luck taking candy from a baby than getting grandma to give up her Plymouth.

Most of us here are "crash test dummies"; we got hurt by the machine.

This is GOOD DATA for the car company (bad for us 'cause it hurt)

IF we (and others) can find the way to express our 'crash test dummy' experiences to the ats ptb without it turning into an emotional argument or revenge seeking crusade there is an off chance they may actually incorporate that data into future designs of their machine which will help to avoid certain bits of pain and suffering down the road...

On the other side of the coin, and just as important, is the need to keep an eye on this up and coming multi media outlet for one simple reason: the "William Randolph Hearst" scenario.

Now I doubt that ATS will ever corner the market in media outlets, but they are going to claim a respectable share of it and as such the need to be monitored. Having all the 'fact checkers' and 'subject matter experts' be Internal makes it too easy to accidentally or intentionally 'mess up'.

okay, now I Really have to go pick up the little one...

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Re: Are the PTB behind ATS?

Postby Springer » Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:58 pm

Ryan...

I can't tell if you are trying to be obtuse, if you simply haven't been reading my responses, if you just haven't been to ATS in a LONG time, or all of the above... :P

Dude, the tripe that Elendil is posting would ripped to shreds by our members in a matter of hours and labeled a hoax shortly there after or simply trashed once he failed to produce any evidence... UNLESS he posted it in SkunkWorks and admitted it was nothing more than a wild theory. There are SEVERAL threads on ATS about the "dark side of ATS" or the old faithful, bi- monthly appearance of "is ATS a disinfo front site?"... Seriously. A little research (spend some quality time on the site) would serve you well my man! ;)

Springer...
Last edited by Springer on Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are the PTB behind ATS?

Postby Springer » Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:13 pm

@ Torbjon...

There is nothing that formal as a required minimum number for a quorum or anything like that... AGAIN, the post ban is NOT PERMANENT, it's easily removed if the member is honestly interested in participating in the community and NOT solely there for disruption, hoaxing or scamming...

The available staff that is online when the infraction occurs will discuss it and if there is a consensus (could be 35 or it could be 4 staffers) that the offending member isn't going to get with the program they post ban the member to stop the problem. It's then up to the member to read the u2u they get, go read the thread "If you've been post banned" and deal with it.

WRT diversity of the staff, how does every continent, and just about every religion (including Atheists), and both sexual "preferences" being included sound? Pretty diverse yes?

We have staffers that are die hard skeptics (we have a couple that make Chorlton look like a wide eyed True Believer!), a couple that just know we are being visited, people who don't trust the US Government, people who WORK for the USG (an Army guy actually, but still), a "higher up" in the State of New York Civil Service, artists, computer geeks, business owners, stay at home moms, corporate executives, college students, a professor, etc... but mostly we have people who are open minded, critical thinkers who love a good, CIVIL, discussion.

I promise you there is not a better, more diverse staff on the internet.

Springer...
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Re: Are the PTB behind ATS?

Postby JayKew » Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:55 pm

Springer wrote

"I promise you there is not a better, more diverse staff on the internet.

Springer..."

Is that so ??

Do they shout and swear at forum members like you do ??

Three times I have brought this to your attention.

Three times, you have tried to ignore it.

By your "standards", the standards which Bill used to provide evidence that Chorlton was a worthy "evictee", you would no longer be a member, never mind a money earner on ATS.

Are you not man enough to deal with it and offer an apology ?

What a two faced person you are.

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Re: Are the PTB behind ATS?

Postby remus » Sat Jun 07, 2008 12:19 am

TheSkepticOverlord wrote:we ran a test some time ago to gauge who is deleting cookies, and we only saw 10% of all users over a three-month period were manually deleting cookies.

In the same test, we also looked at users who were not allowing JavaScript to run, and that number came in less than 2%. So it's not a significant factor.




All great questions asked and answered torbjon and SO.

Regarding the above comment, how are you able to check who is and is'nt deleting cookies?

Yes i am a computer dunce. :)
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Re: Are the PTB behind ATS?

Postby Springer » Sat Jun 07, 2008 1:46 am

JayKew wrote:Springer wrote

"I promise you there is not a better, more diverse staff on the internet.

Springer..."

Is that so ??

Do they shout and swear at forum members like you do ??

Three times I have brought this to your attention.

Three times, you have tried to ignore it.

By your "standards", the standards which Bill used to provide evidence that Chorlton was a worthy "evictee", you would no longer be a member, never mind a money earner on ATS.

Are you not man enough to deal with it and offer an apology ?

What a two faced person you are.

Two faced and a true internet warrior.


What in the WORLD are you on about?! When have I EVER sworn at you?! You are not making any sense to me JayKew... Help me out here mate. ;)

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Re: Are the PTB behind ATS?

Postby ryguy » Sat Jun 07, 2008 4:20 am

Springer wrote:Ryan...

I can't tell if you are trying to be obtuse, if you simply haven't been reading my responses, if you just haven't been to ATS in a LONG time, or all of the above... :P


It's sarcasm. And yes, the last time I've been to ATS, I read the insanity of Sleeper's thread, and then attempted civil discussion with nutcase Lear - almost threw up from reading posts to Sleeper from people who appeared to have a 5th-grade education, asking him if he would ask his alien friend questions ffs....

So yeah...it's been about 6 months (I think) since my last foray into the insane asylum.

I do actually have a hard time believing that these 5 to 7 folks here are lying - but I will certainly go back in and poke around for myself. If I get sick again, you owe me a t-shirt.

-Ry
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Re: Are the PTB behind ATS?

Postby remus » Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:17 am

TheSkepticOverlord wrote:
remus wrote:The amount of traffic you receive has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on quality of content.

Okay... on what do you base that statement?

What else, other that compelling content, would attract visitors via search and referring websites?
(May 2008 on ATS)


This would be the compelling content of which you speak.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread360418/pg1

Dozens of these or worse everyday imo.

Quantity does not mean quality.

I'm just saying i find myself spending much less time at your site now than i did 12 months ago, hell i even spend more time lurking at GHMB now.
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Re: Are the PTB behind ATS?

Postby elendal » Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:45 am

ryguy wrote:Elendal - I don't mean to be rude, but I can't shake the feeling that you are here to lower the conversation into the paranoid conspiracy bucket that people (maybe seeking to defend ATS from these charges) can point to and say "see...they're crazy".

You are forgetting - probabilities. It's not that I believe PTBs are behind ATS. I am simply doing everything I can to shift the probabilities one way or another. When I started this particular game with ATS, which was in that last thread I started there, I began with a completely opposite assumption - that SkepticOverlord was indeed trying to do his job of making ATS the best conspiracy forum on the net (though, by that assumption, he was definitely quite clumsy at it) .

Providing that that thread still exists (which I really don't know since I don't go there anymore, and I don't care to know either), you should be able to see how quickly that assumption turned out to be dead wrong. The probability moved quite rapidly from 50% down to, I would say, 20-ish. These are strictly subjective assessments, but that is actually my point. We are all prone to agreeing with ourselves, and accepting only those facts that agree with us, while we ignore all the rest. However, once I noticed such a remarkable drop of probability of my starting assumption, I had to conclude that something else was going on behind ATS. So I devised another assumption, which is exactly what this thread title says. So far, that assumption has been confirming itself time and time again. Thus, I have to conclude that, at least partially, I have hit the target.

I'll just make one point. If you look at an example where we've made a conclusion about anyone using sockpuppets, it was because we found a very long history of that person using sockpuppets on various forums throughout the internet (the owner/admin of OM). So when we drew that conclusion we provided reams of evidence to support it. I can't think of a single piece of evidence I've seen anywhere that would suggest S.O. is not only Bill.

That's a good point. If I may say so, your own style of writing has changed significantly as well, but I believe that's only because you are beginning to learn, not because you are a puppet yourself. I only asked you that question to show you how easily it can be turned around, and you couldn't do a thing to prove to me that you are not. Every single piece of "evidence" that you could have thrown at me, trying to prove that you are not a puppet, I could have rejected for one reason or another. I'm pretty good at finding logical reasons for whatever conclusions I like to come to. I look at it as a nice practice.

However, there are certain psychological qualities that don't change that much in a person. If they did, that person would be completely different. The game of balance that reason has to play with itself in order to not go completely crazy is more delicate than people usually realize. Changing just one of the pillar-traits/beliefs that reason resides on (they are different for any individual), would produce a completely different personality. SkepticOverlod's pillars have changed so consistently and dramatically that he is either:

a) Schizophrenic, which I very much doubt since some of the traits are completely incompatible with it.
b) A stalker himself, which I also very much doubt since he's done some terrible mistakes, but I guess there's still some probability to it.
c) A group of different people with different personality traits. I would aim for this one, and that's what I've been doing here.

But the available evidence suggests it has nothing to do with the PTB, but for a personal agenda and personal gain.

That's the only difference between you and me - the amount of evidence. While I take psychology to provide enough evidence for me, you are completely ignoring it, most probably because of your lack of familiarity with the field.

The reason I rely purely on psychology in this particular case is because there is simply no other way for me to prove anything. Unless someone working for ATS actually comes out in the open and confirm what I'm saying, with a very, very convincing evidence, in the form of his personal information, his official records in the agency (whatever it may be), and his story of how it all works, we won't be seeing any evidence any time soon. The probability of that happening is almost non-existent, regardless of whether what I'm saying is true or not. You certainly understand why.
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Re: Are the PTB behind ATS?

Postby elendal » Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:54 am

TheSkepticOverlord wrote:Your spotty attention span and selective memory are causing you to come to incorrect conclusions.

I've stated we don't keep server logs that would associate user IP's with site content.

It's been widely known that a user's IP address is recorded with every post.

!? :shock:

arr... err... ugh... you have left me speechless...

Two sentences in the same post, directly contradicting each other... and directly following one another...

And, to top it all off, just in the post directly before this one I am replying to, you were all logic and reason. In this one you are a complete moron. I don't mean it as an insult, but as a measure if IQ.

So, what are you people actually doing here? Dividing the tasks between yourselves, so I get the moron and everyone else gets the logical programmer? I think that's not fair. I would also like to speak to logical programmer once in a while, you know.

P.S.
Edited to add the reference to a formal (though obsolete) psychological classification of moron.

Mental deficiency used to be divided into the following sub-classifications, but these labels began to be abused by the public and are now largely obsolete: Borderline Deficiency (IQ 70-80), Moron (IQ 50-69), Imbecile (IQ 20-49) and Idiot (below 20). Mental deficiency is now generally called mental retardation.


Source: http://www.assessmentpsychology.com/iqc ... ations.htm
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Re: Are the PTB behind ATS?

Postby elendal » Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:41 am

torbjon wrote:Case in point my continued conversation with S.O. regarding site stats and metrics in a thread entitled 'are the ptb behind ats'... very educational, very enjoyable, very civil and polite, but I'm not sure it would be possible for us to be any farther off topic, ya know?

No, no, please don't stop your conversations. Beside being very educational for some people here (including me), they have also helped to bring out my points. You can't even imagine how grateful I am for your contribution here. If you are asking for a permission to continue, you definitely have mine. I can't speak for anyone else here, but I sincerely hope they like your conversations as well.

I am also begging to feel that this thread will not go on for much longer, so you should definitely use every opportunity you get to ask SO everything that comes to your mind.
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Re: Are the PTB behind ATS?

Postby Chorlton » Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:58 am

torbjon wrote:
ryguy wrote:
I repeat: Should we let our content be "MEMBER-DRIVEN" by the kind of paranoid-conspiracy-theory nonsense that elendal is publishing here about ATS?


well if you are asking for a member driven response to that then no, I don't think so. Personally I feel that ATS Watch needs to be a lot more united and focused. In the few weeks that this has been going on this section of RU has become incredibly cluttered (in my opinion)

The problem here is that there is a lot of 'old muck' from several years ago being raked over and also a lot of 'new muck' about goings on in the last year or two being raked over.There is a lot being discussed here that I know nothing about, nor do I wish to, I would rather concetrate on those things relating to the UK and those things that I can nose around in. I found ATS several years ago, looked at it and decided it was a definite 'Nut job' site, when I rejoined last year it was because there were people there that were standing up to the 'Nutjobs' but it was also apparent that sceptics were being slapped down, warned, post banned etc etc and Nut Jobs like Lear, sleeper and Zorgon were activeley encouraged and their abuse was being ignored.

IF we (and others) can find the way to express our 'crash test dummy' experiences to the ats ptb without it turning into an emotional argument or revenge seeking crusade there is an off chance they may actually incorporate that data into future designs of their machine which will help to avoid certain bits of pain and suffering down the road...

The problem is, that there is no notice at all on what is being said, the wusses just get on their high horses with their backs up and their thumbs up their backsides and cry 'FOUL' instead of actually taking notice of whats said. Which is weird.
Back in the late 60's early 70's I was in the studio and was merrily working on some stuff which sounded OK but there was something missing, when (a very well known guitarist, I wont namedrop) came in, in the break, and said, "Hey I see those chords in a different colour" and proceeded to play a few and it was as if someone turned the lights on in a dark room. If you run a business and someone says they see a problem the business owner would be a fool to ignore it, but thats what the ATS Wusses do, and in the process are slowly losing credibility.
Preferring cash over truth is fine, but continually denying it isnt fooling anyone

Now I doubt that ATS will ever corner the market in media outlets, but they are going to claim a respectable share of it and as such the need to be monitored.

I see ATS the other way, as people wise up and see whats happening they will drop away and hopefully see the truth of what ATS is doing and it will simply fade into the background noise. The other forums there I see as taking precedence over the ATSside of things
okay, now I Really have to go pick up the little one...
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Re: Are the PTB behind ATS?

Postby TheSkepticOverlord » Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:04 pm

remus wrote:how are you able to check who is and is'nt deleting cookies?

When you visit a website, there are three things that are part of the "data package" your computer reveals to the web server...
1- operating system and version
2- browser and version
3- IP address
For the first 45 days, we retained this information in a database for all users that hit ATS (no personal data or content was associated with this). This is the data we retained to define an absolute unique user.

Then, once we had that basis, for the next 90 days, we looked at the activity for all repeat visitors... comparing against what we had, and entering new data for first-time visitors. We also set a distinct cookie, named "ATS tracker" (something that would stand out as being in need of deletion by those who look at their cookies), with an expiration date of 180 days.

At the end, we had just over 512,000 absolute unique visitors who visited ATS more than once within the 125 day period.

There are a few high-profile companies promoting the notion that more than half of all Internet users regularly delete their cookies... because this fallacy promotes their agenda and justifies their own audience measurement technology. But we found less than 10% of the people who repeatedly visit a conspiracy site (those most likely to delete cookies), actually manually removed the cookie.
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Re: Are the PTB behind ATS?

Postby MrPenny » Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:23 pm

elendal wrote: I'm pretty good at finding logical reasons for whatever conclusions I like to come to.


Huh....that's an extremely revealing sentence. Interesting.

On a different subject....can I claim any credits for the lessons Bill has provided here? Pretty damn useful stuff.
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Re: Are the PTB behind ATS?

Postby Shawnna » Sat Jun 07, 2008 5:32 pm

elendal wrote:The game of balance that reason has to play with itself in order to not go completely crazy is more delicate than people usually realize.


*spits coffee all over keyboard & monitor*

That, elendal, is signature worthy.

:bgthbup:


MrPenny wrote:On a different subject....can I claim any credits for the lessons Bill has provided here? Pretty damn useful stuff.


It's probably the most useful of ANYTHING - including all ATS content since Day 1 - that Bill has ever been involved with on the internet.

*she says facetiously*

ryguy wrote:I repeat: Should we let our content be "MEMBER-DRIVEN" by the kind of paranoid-conspiracy-theory nonsense that elendal is publishing here about ATS?


I, for one, do not take elendal's paranoid-conspiracy-theory meanderings as "nonsense". Now it may very well be "nonsense" as it relates to the topic of this thread but to label it as "nonsense" in general seems a bit harsh.

My sense is it reflects his/her personal experience and/or beliefs and general approach to Life. Perhaps a thread or forum much like the spirituality forum where paranoid-conspiracy-theories can be properly vetted? The intellectual dialog and capacity of forum posters to support their view - or not - would most likely be sufficient.

That, and good thread moderation such that off topic dialog gets moved to Chit Chat or somewhere else more appropriate seems enough to me.

:P
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