Are the PTB behind ATS?

[torbjon]

@ Torbjon...

There is nothing that formal as a required minimum number for a quorum or anything like that... AGAIN, the post ban is NOT PERMANENT, it's easily removed if the member is honestly interested in participating in the community and NOT solely there for disruption, hoaxing or scamming...

The available staff that is online when the infraction occurs will discuss it and if there is a consensus (could be 35 or it could be 4 staffers) that the offending member isn't going to get with the program they post ban the member to stop the problem. It's then up to the member to read the u2u they get, go read the thread "If you've been post banned" and deal with it.

WRT diversity of the staff, how does every continent, and just about every religion (including Atheists), and both sexual "preferences" being included sound? Pretty diverse yes?

We have staffers that are die hard skeptics (we have a couple that make Chorlton look like a wide eyed True Believer!), a couple that just know we are being visited, people who don't trust the US Government, people who WORK for the USG (an Army guy actually, but still), a "higher up" in the State of New York Civil Service, artists, computer geeks, business owners, stay at home moms, corporate executives, college students, a professor, etc... but mostly we have people who are open minded, critical thinkers who love a good, CIVIL, discussion.

I promise you there is not a better, more diverse staff on the internet.

Springer...

Dude,

Again, Not attacking you, I'm very much enjoying the nixon/china/tea and biscuits chit chat, but that sounds pretty much Exactly like the system that was in place during my two events.

my run in with masqua / super mod over my collaborative fiction story resulted in a post ban that was an effective Perma ban because of the Human element in that system, and my perma ban event failed for the same reason.

So I'm asking you, point blank:

Will ATS consider implementing coding into the next generation of upgrades to the ATS system that will incorporate the following safety features:

1) When the human element hits the Post Ban Button the system will automatically lift the post ban 72 hours later. The human element can decrease but not increase that amount.

2) When the human element hits the Perma Ban button it triggers the Post Ban function with a fixed duration of 72 hours, at the end of which time the Perma Ban function is carried out.

3) During Post Ban U2Us may be monitored or restricted.

4) other stuff as needed

5) bells and whistles

Somewhere else here S.O. said something like two or three thousand people had been banned, a little code like this may have 'saved' a couple of dozen or so, which I Know isn't very much percentage wise...

But one of those could have been 'the one', ya know?

And that's what it's all about, right?

[Springer]

@Torbjon

I don't know what good an "automated" piece of code would do. Seriously, what difference is there in that vs the "send any member of the senior staff a simple U2U stating you agree with and will abide what you signed up for (the TAC) in the first place" system we have in place now?
I think the issue is you want to compare your situation with today's version of what's happening. It's not the same, it has no bearing.

Yes we could write some automated code that automatically reinstates a post-banned member but that would defeat what we are looking for from those folks before we allow them back.

WRT to the "perma-banned" they don't deserve a second chance if they made it to that level and we simply aren't willing to waste the limited time we have on vetting them just to make sure they have "seen the light".

Am I missing something here?

Springer...

[ryguy]

I, for one, do not take elendal's paranoid-conspiracy-theory meanderings as "nonsense". Now it may very well be "nonsense" as it relates to the topic of this thread but to label it as "nonsense" in general seems a bit harsh.

That's true - I was referring only to the charge that ATS is run by the PTB as nonsense, not his/her entire posts.

Actually, elendal's last post in this thread, above, was more interesting than any other before it. I disagree quite strongly with elendal's quick dismissal of the value of evidence (it's really not as hard to obtain as elendal makes it out to be - as you know). But I think your idea about moving elendal's ideas/posts to Spirituality is a fantastic idea - that's definitely where many of these concepts would spark some valuable discussions.

That, and good thread moderation such that off topic dialog gets moved to Chit Chat or somewhere else more appropriate seems enough to me.

Good thread moderation may not take place until AD gets back from vacation - as Steve and I have been too swamped to stay on top of it. But I'll try to sort things out tomorrow if Steve doesn't beat me to it.

-Ry

[elendal]

I'm pretty good at finding logical reasons for whatever conclusions I like to come to.

Huh....that's an extremely revealing sentence. Interesting.

On a different subject....can I claim any credits for the lessons Bill has provided here? Pretty damn useful stuff.

It was supposed to be revealing.

Since this game is nearing its end, it is my duty to explain what I've been doing here. Without such explanation, all of this would be just random ramblings of the mind.

But what is more important than that is what others have been doing here as well. This was a group effort, played out by everyone's subconscious more than by their conscious choices. I believe that psychology states that as much as 90% of our decisions are based on subconscious instead of conscious. With that high percentage, it's no wonder most of the time we have no idea why we do or say something. We just try to find logical reasons to justify our unconscious choices (that's the revealing part ).

Therefore, yes, you can claim credits for the lessons, and I thank you as well.

I also take this opportunity to thank everyone else as well. Including SkepticOverlord, believe it or not. If there weren't some of the worst blunders I have seen in my life coming from his direction, none of this would have played out the way it did. If nothing else, that alone should make you wonder.

On a side note, a friend of mine gave me a "Mind Control with Derren Brown" DVD just several days ago. You may be amazed to see some of the things there, but that's what subconscious does all the time. As Derren Brown put it: "It's all in your mind". It's an entertainment show, though, so don't expect any proofs.

Edited to add:

One of the better examples of Derren Brown's "tricks", with explanations at the end.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... jQKYq-CMDA

[elendal]

I can't help but notice a sudden and abrupt stop of posting from SkepticOverlord's side. His last post was from the logical programmer, which is kind of what I expected to see. The force of the momentum carried him to reply to the technical questions, when all of the sudden... he hit a brick wall of my explanation. Sorry about that guys. Not that I didn't intend it, but it must have hurt nevertheless.

I don't expect to see the moron in this thread again, but he may come back just to prove me wrong. Either way, I believe it's time for another comedy relief, and some education along the way. It's Monty Python again, and this sketch is titled - "Argument Clinic". Very informative, very educational, and above all - very funny.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... iwKH96THDA

[Chorlton]

I can't help but notice a sudden and abrupt stop of posting from SkepticOverlord's side. His last post was from the logical programmer, which is kind of what I expected to see. The force of the momentum carried him to reply to the technical questions, when all of the sudden... he hit a brick wall of my explanation. Sorry about that guys. Not that I didn't intend it, but it must have hurt nevertheless.

I don't expect to see the moron in this thread again, but he may come back just to prove me wrong. Either way, I believe it's time for another comedy relief, and some education along the way. It's Monty Python again, and this sketch is titled - "Argument Clinic". Very informative, very educational, and above all - very funny.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... iwKH96THDA

Maybe he's found the botom of the hole he was digging?

[TheSkepticOverlord]

when all of the sudden... he hit a brick wall of my explanation. Sorry about that guys. Not that I didn't intend it, but it must have hurt nevertheless.

Unfortunately, it's more like a reinforced concrete wall constructed from your inability (or unwillingness) to comprehend a few relatively simple concepts related to "recording member IP's when they post," as opposed to "logging all user IP's when they visit." If you're unwilling to "get" the point, then there's nothing more I can say on the matter.

I don't expect to see the moron in this thread again,

Did you ever find that mirror?

[lost_shaman]

We are all prone to agreeing with ourselves, and accepting only those facts that agree with us, while we ignore all the rest.

Now that is an interesting statement considering that you followed up by stating this...

I'm pretty good at finding logical reasons for whatever conclusions I like to come to.

So is AD, but that doesn't make him anymore correct in his self-deception than it makes you in your own Self-deception.

Last I checked what you are describing is referred to as circular reasoning. This is a charge I don't take lightly as it happens to often irresponsibly and wrongly be attributed to myself by another prominent and aforementioned RU member. The proverbial "nail in the coffin" here is this statement you made...

Every single piece of "evidence" that you could have thrown at me, trying to prove that you are not a puppet, I could have rejected for one reason or another.

Of course you could reject any 'evidence' that might 'prove' a negative, because it's not possible to do so! Here what you should be doing is 'Proving' a Sock puppet was at play. As far as I can tell you have not done that. Therefore this is IMO an excellent example of circular reasoning.

[MrPenny]

It was supposed to be revealing.

And that is what your answer was supposed to be. Although, I doubt you're aware what the original statement revealed....to me at least. Wouldn't it be ironic if the "PTB" (my question is....who the hell are the "PTB"?), are manipulating you?

Therefore, yes, you can claim credits for the lessons, and I thank you as well.

Oops...unless your name is "Bill", I was not referring to your essays.

[torbjon]

@Torbjon

I don't know what good an "automated" piece of code would do. Seriously, what difference is there in that vs the "send any member of the senior staff a simple U2U stating you agree with and will abide what you signed up for (the TAC) in the first place" system we have in place now?
I think the issue is you want to compare your situation with today's version of what's happening. It's not the same, it has no bearing.

Yes we could write some automated code that automatically reinstates a post-banned member but that would defeat what we are looking for from those folks before we allow them back.

WRT to the "perma-banned" they don't deserve a second chance if they made it to that level and we simply aren't willing to waste the limited time we have on vetting them just to make sure they have "seen the light".

Am I missing something here?

Springer...

Um, yes, you Are missing something here.

Regarding post banning the System (which does not seem to have changed any) FAILED. I jumped through the hoops, read the pages I was told to read, said the words I was supposed to say to 'super mod' AND to you, was completely and totally ignored by both You and 'super mod' making my post ban an effective perma ban, and the only reason it was lifted was due to Real Life Intervention behind the scenes by a third party mediator.

Regarding 'perma banning'. You said:

"they don't deserve a second chance if they made it to that level"

and yet we have on file here not one but TWO apologies from You and one from S.O. where ATS admits to Human Error and a "breakdown in communication" regarding the 'perma ban' procedure at ATS. On two occasions here you have invited me back to your forum, so not only is the system Flawed, apparently SOME folks actually DO deserve a 'second chance'.

I am finding it exceedingly difficult to believe that during the ten year history of ATS with all the members that have come and gone during that time that I am the ONLY person on the face of the entire planet to get the ax and subsequent cold shoulder treatment.

A little coding that implements predefined time limits and guarantees that the lines of communication will NOT be shut down during that time limit could help to prevent the type of head banging we're doing now...

HOWEVER

suppose I AM the only person on the face of the planet to EVER experience two system failures of this nature at ATS, and with that one exception your current Human Only system works just spiffy...

with your continued growth in membership do you truly and honestly believe that I was the one and ONLY such person like this that ATS will ever encounter again??

Your system failed twice due to the human element running off half cocked and making bad decisions based upon Faulty Assumptions and those actions caused HARM to your membership.

The ATS Staff And Management Harmed A Member.

And you are blowing it off like it's no big deal.

I'm trying to HELP you, not ATTACK you, and you are being defensive and a little egotistical.

[elendal]

Unfortunately, it's more like a reinforced concrete wall constructed from your inability (or unwillingness) to comprehend a few relatively simple concepts related to "recording member IP's when they post," as opposed to "logging all user IP's when they visit." If you're unwilling to "get" the point, then there's nothing more I can say on the matter.

You are way too easy!

OK, I admit, you proved me wrong. Happy?

Anyway, I am glad that you stated (and twice by now!) that you track IP addresses of your posters. I remember that was quite a big topic back at ATS. "Do they track, do they not...?" It was being stated and restated times and times again that ATS doesn't track its members. Now you say you do. Good for you! Here's a cookie.

As for visitors... well, who cares about visitors. They don't post, they don't say anything of any importance whatsoever, so why would you track visitors anyway?

But tracking members... Well, that's a completely different matter altogether! I hope you will direct your members to this post of yours the next time a question of IP tracking visits ATS. You will, won't you?

I must ask you one thing, though... You do understand what I'm doing to you, right? I mean I've provoked you so hard that you simply can't resist spilling all the beans all over the place. You do understand that none of this would have happened if you just kept your mouth shut, right? Without your (completely unexpected, but I must say - incredibly efficient!) help, we wouldn't have learned as much about ATS in ages.

I wonder what other secrets you are keeping there... Hmmm... Should I prod you a little more...?

Nah... probably not. You wouldn't learn anyway, and I don't need anything from you, so there's really no reason for me to do it. I am now leaving you alone, regardless of what you say in the future.

[elendal]

Last I checked what you are describing is referred to as circular reasoning.

Everything you quoted from my post is exactly what I've been repeating over and over again for days. "Consistent sets of axioms", "sets of beliefs", "agreeing with ourselves", "finding logical excuses for our unconscious choices", stalking. You have all the dots right there in front of your eyes, but you don't see the connections. That's the only problem. Once you connect the dots, you'll see there's much more to be found than what you see now.

Now, circular reason doesn't really mean anything. Can you put "circular reasoning" into mathematical form for example? I'm certain you can't, but you should definitely give it a try.

But how about "consistent set of axioms (and rules)"? Can you put that into mathematical form? You definitely can. Arithmetics, for one, is such a set. Formal Logic is another. They all produce tautologies, which means, believe it or not - circular reasoning. "It works because it works, don't ask me why" (circular reasoning again). Try it yourself - 1 plus 1 always equals 2, right? It can't be any different, right? And how do you prove it? You use the same axioms and rules from exactly the same set to produce a proof. If that's not circular reasoning then I really don't know what is.

Reality that we believe in so hard is so damn real because it always agrees with itself. That's all there is to it.

By the way, one of descriptions of stalking is "believing without believing anything". You'll have some hard time trying to put yourself into such a state of mind, but if you succeed you'll understand what I mean.

As a simple exercise, you can try this - take any word, whichever you like (the longer the better). Say that word out loud. Repeat it over and over again. There is some general time, ranging from several seconds to a minute (I don't remember it anymore) of such repeating when, all of the sudden, that word completely loses its meaning. I mean, you say it out loud, you know what you are saying, but it's completely meaningless to you. Like you are saying some foreign word. At that moment, your belief in that word ceases to exist. What's left is just the word, the sound of it, without any reason or logic behind it. That word has just fell right between the cracks of reason.

There are many holes like that all around reason, but we've learned not to notice them for the fear of losing reason altogether. A very delicate game of balance indeed.

Again - fear... Remember? The first enemy of the man of knowledge. It's all connected, but you have to make those connections yourself.

[elendal]

And that is what your answer was supposed to be. Although, I doubt you're aware what the original statement revealed....to me at least. Wouldn't it be ironic if the "PTB" (my question is....who the hell are the "PTB"?), are manipulating you?

Of course I am manipulated. It would be an outright lie to say that I'm not. But that's only because we are all manipulated. I am simply no exception to the rule. Your problem is that you don't want to admit that you are manipulated as well. You are holding to your belief that you are free, as much as anyone out there.

It's just another paradox. Only when you admit that you are manipulated you can free yourself. Denial just won't help.

Oops...unless your name is "Bill", I was not referring to your essays.

I know exactly what you meant, and I replied in an adequate manner. I thanked you for helping me to lure "Bill" out in the open. You don't even see it, but that's exactly what you've been doing here. It makes absolutely no difference if you want to admit it or not. You have played your part. That will certainly bother you to no end, but that's just the ego part of your reason trying to keep itself on the throne... but since reason doesn't decide anything anyway, that's not a problem.

But to give your reason some relief, I can say this - it wasn't me who was manipulating you. It was yourself, your unconscious, your true self. Gibberish? Most probably it is for your reason right now, but as I said, it makes absolutely no difference.

[TheSkepticOverlord]

It was being stated and restated times and times again that ATS doesn't track its members. Now you say you do. Good for you! Here's a cookie.

We never said that... perhaps you should provide a link to where you believe that was said.

We stated that we do not retain server logs and the main reason being is that such logs associate IP addresses with the visitor's request for each server asset. It's not my fault if you misunderstand what we say.

But tracking members... Well, that's a completely different matter altogether! I hope you will direct your members to this post of yours the next time a question of IP tracking visits ATS. You will, won't you?

That information is in our Privacy Policy which is linked at the bottom of every page on the site. What's your point?

You do understand that none of this would have happened if you just kept your mouth shut, right?

None of what?

Should I prod you a little more...?

Perhaps first you should spend more time with ATS to ensure your statements reflect reality.

[MrPenny]

Your problem is that you don't want to admit that you are manipulated as well. You are holding to your belief that you are free, as much as anyone out there.

"Your problem is"......probably the one single statement that throws everything you say directly into the trashbin of reason. Your gigantic ego now has you telling me what my problem is. Heh heh heh.

You've "lured" Bill into the open? whooooo wooo woooooo.......

*MrPenny wonders how many copies of "Catcher In the Rye" this feller has squirreled away*