CLIFFORD STONE (the latest hoaxer sponsored by ATS)

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CLIFFORD STONE (the latest hoaxer sponsored by ATS)

Postby Access Denied » Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:36 am

Noting that Mark STILL hasn’t answered my simple yes or no question from 6 months ago in this post here…

Breaking UFOlogy news!
viewtopic.php?p=14940#p14940

[should you choose to do so now Mark, please answer in that thread]

Here we go again, if you haven’t seen the (15 pages and counting) circus yet a new game is afoot at ATS…

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread359885/pg1

After several pages of inane questions from the alien huggers one poster notes…

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thr ... pid4427781

fabgav wrote:LOOK, this guy is making alot of money from all this talk, now im not saying its a load of bull, but he sells books and his storys so i would not take a single word as fact....... I have not seen or read anything that makes me think he is telling the truth...... surley he can give some sort of evidence to back up his tales......

To which Mark replies with great civility and decorum…

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thr ... pid4428232

Springer wrote:You are so full of incredibly WRONG information I don't know where to start. The fact you make broad brush statements about things you obviously have ZERO facts on says lots mate.

Have you ever seen where Clifford lives? no

Do you have any idea how much money Clifford makes? no

Yet you make statements like "this guy is making so much money off of these tales that's why he's doing it!"

Our site motto is DENY IGNORANCE, you are utterly ignorant of Clifford's situation yet you make proclamations about it, not what I call denying ignorance.

Clifford is NOT making money off any of this, he lives in a very humble home and drives a 20 year old car that needs repairs. He works at a troubled youth facility 8-10 hours EVERY DAY just to make ends meet.

I don’t know about that but Stone works (or worked) as a “researcher” for the Roswell Museum and give lectures in addition to the book he wrote.

http://www.alienresistance.org/2007.htm

Sunday July 8, 2007
8:00 - 9:30am Sgt. Clifford Stone "Advanced Technology Concepts & Interstellar Travel : What Does NASA Really Know?"


Just because he didn’t get rich doesn’t mean he hasn’t tried. Also, aren’t the proceeds from his ATS FOIA forum going to his family raising some serious conflict of interest issues?

Mark continues…

Springer wrote:The other statements you've made about "faking documents" is ludicrous as well. I've seen the documents, held them in my hands and saw the post marked envelopes from the government agencies, read the cover letters from the Colonels and Generals and U.S.Senators, spoke with the Senator's offices to get confirmation the letters are genuine. They aren't fake, many others have seen the documents and done the research and agree, are we all nuts?

What research is that Mark? Why are you ignoring my thread here (linked to above) about at least one of those (key) documents being of questionable authenticity (two different copies exist) according to some well known researchers? Those officials were no doubt fooled by Stone’s misrepresented “evidence” too. And why deride somebody for not knowing what the evidence YOU are withholding from your membership allegedly “proves”???

Mark continues to chide…

Springer wrote:I can tolerate allot of things but the sheer ignorant arrogance of your posts has hit a nerve with me.

Challenge Clifford's beliefs, challenge his ideas, challenge his theories in a civil and polite discussion, but DON'T challenge his integrity, not here.

I've seen more charlatans than any man should ever have to and I can attest to the FACT that even if Clifford Stone is completely wrong about everything he thinks or remembers, even if he is "nutty as fruitcake"(I don't believe he is), he is NOT a liar or deceiver and he is definitely NOT in this "for the money" that's just laughable.

You missed one. Stone has not one shred of verifiable evidence for his ridiculous claims. What’s the name of his alien friend that he talks to again? He was a Clerk Typist (and not a very good one judging by his posts) and claiming his records were “sanitized” or whatever like Lazar did is the oldest trick in the book… even “secret agents” have a record of their service and training. Apparently you’re more gullible than I imagined… that explains a LOT… you “did not disbelieve” his buddy Lear either. Given your beliefs and failure to exercise healthy skepticism in this case and call for evidence first I seriously question your ability to moderate these topics fairly Mark.

And finally…

Springer wrote:We will not tolerate off topic personal insults or attacks on Clifford any more than we will on any other member.

Please ask your questions and BE PATIENT, Clifford has to work and he's been inundated in this thread, he is also not in great health and will do the best he can in answering everyone.

You can’t separate the claimant from the claims! It’s his credibility that’s on the line and like respect, credibility is earned. If he can’t stand up to the scrutiny on his own and chooses to ignore the really tough questions then he has no credibility… it’s not something YOU can manufacture and demand others respect. I don’t care how “nice” his posts are and how many times he ends his posts with “God bless”… he’s still full of it until HE proves otherwise. How do ever expect ATS to become a credible source if you yourself are unable to adhere to the basic principals and standards of journalism?

Now here’s a completely different response to “fabgav’s” post…

[now deleted but saved by an observant associate]

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thr ... pid4429351

Lonte wrote:Hehe, he just couldn't give a single proof.
Billy Meier is better.
John Lear is a bit better.
Robbie Williams is more exciting, at least he sings!

JUST DON'T PAY A SINGLE CENT TO THIS GUY, BUY NO BOOKS BUY NO CDs, THEN HE WILL BE GONE LEAVING US ALONE!!!

A Sergeant? I am expecting a GENERAL!!!!!!!! a 4 stars GENERAL sounds better.

It seems everybody is asking, hi army great, thanks for coming to this forum, do you know this or that? do you know another guy in the army......... and.......... and........ where is the ALIEN????

This type of people always say I am not supposed to tell this or that due to oath in army and brotherhood or for the sake of humanity when they don't have the answer.
If these guys have the proof, a single proof why don't they say it out loud, put it out loud instead of " I am not suppose to tell this or that..."? Everybody going to die anyway right? Why not tell the truth and get killed instead of bringing the truth to the tomb?

These people are selling books and CDs, and you are buying.

And here’s the poster’s response to the deletion…

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thr ... pid4429438

Lonte wrote:Hehe, my post was removed, I was asked to stick to the topic when the guy couldn't give any answer about the alien where the topic is ALIEN!
.
Ok, soldier, where is the ALIEN? few guys in here have been queuing for your answer since page 2.


And please all of you, stick to the TOPIC! stop asking "Hey were you in this service or that service? do you know the other solider?... great welcome here, soldier always said the truth, they never lies.............." Stop that will you, asking proper question such as where is the alien, where is the proof.


And again where is the alien???? where is the single proof? ( Is this the topic? ) please?

Let's wait 2 years till 2010 if he give us a single proof. I don't mind waiting though being banned all the time, and the truth is?????

Despite the apparent language barrier he has a point whether Stone is making any significant amount of money or not as this poster noted…

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thr ... pid4429458

Stockburn wrote:Agreed. I just did a couple pages ago. I asked specfically to show us the "catalog" of 57 species of aliens that he himself spoke about in the "disclosure project" video.

I would jump for joy at the site of such a document. Not trying to piss anybody off, I just want the info.

Why do I get the feeling this thread will be closed soon?

I doubt that… not as long as the OP is being coddled. This is followed later by this heavy handed warning from a mod…

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thr ... pid4430087

Majic wrote:IMPORTANT: FINAL NOTICE

[snip]

For Those Who Have Been Post-Banned Or Are Post-Banned Going Forward

[snip]

I do not recommend testing the patience of the staff on these matters.

Are we having fun yet?

[sigh]

It appears the censorship and “management driven content” continues at ATS…

AD

P.S. I’m all caught up on my stuff now and firing up the Harley in the morning to head up to the High Sierras and clear my head, talk to y’all next week!
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Re: CLIFFORD E. STONE (the latest hoaxer sponsored by ATS)

Postby Chorlton » Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:34 am

Top class article as usual from you AD Well done.

Looks like there will be some more over here soon contributing to this Forum
Also looks like certain peoples credibility is dropping lower than a dachsunds nuts, and their presence here is not adding to that credibility at all.
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Re: CLIFFORD E. STONE (the latest hoaxer sponsored by ATS)

Postby ryguy » Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:57 pm

Thanks for the evidence-filled post AD. ;)

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Re: CLIFFORD E. STONE (the latest hoaxer sponsored by ATS)

Postby Springer » Thu Jun 05, 2008 3:18 pm

Here you go again with inflammatory titles...

AD... IMO based on experience dealing with you, you think anything that is not yours is a hoax, I don't deal with people like that, that's why I ignore you.

I don't care what any of you think about Clifford, I've met him and I've seen the documents, they are real. To call this guy a hoaxer is plain stupid (see Ryan's recent definition of a "hoax") he could be insane, delusional, or he may have really experienced everything he says he has.

I know for a fact nobody here will be able to prove he hasn't. Clifford has more evidence of a government coverup relative to the UFO phenom than anyone I've ever seen and the strange thing that lends credence to his story in my mind. He knew exactly what to ask for, what agencies to ask for it from and they all lied to him and two U.S. Senators swearing there was nothing of the sort in the records. I've spoken to the Senator's offices, the letters are real. When Clifford provided the proof he "shouldn't have had" since it was a deeply buried and denied program the government admitted it and claimed it was nothing and immediately renamed and reclassified the whole damn thing.

That's alot of denial and hiding of NOTHING.

I don't care what you think AD, you have zip,nothing but criticism for anyone trying in UFOlogy that doesn't buy your schtick. Clifford has millions of documents, years of working the system for information and he does NOT get the money for FOIA forum (it's not doing well anyway). His book might have made him a couple thousand dollars over FIFTEEN YEARS, the museum gig is volunteer work. Keep trying and one day you may be relevant mate. ;)

I just don't have the time or the desire to defend every member on ATS who your lot disagree with or think we are "sponsoring". I've said it several times here in this ATS Watch, WE DON"T PROMOTE THE CONTENT THE MEMBERS DO. Every CIVIL and POLITE challenge to Clifford will be tolerated, the snide trollish crap you use as an example will not. Simple.

Springer...
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Re: CLIFFORD E. STONE (the latest hoaxer sponsored by ATS)

Postby Shawnna » Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:33 pm

To understand how ATS owners, who originally had very little tolerance for this kind of stuff, can now actively support it and in fact, promote it, one must look at related events over the last couple of years that are summarized in the ATS Watch thread here. For ease of reading, I'll post it here too.

Shawnna wrote:It's crystal clear to me what's going on here, and Ry spelled it out in a couple of previous posts in this thread that began here.

Here's a summary from my perspective:

1. ATS started out much like RU - committed to the truth incorporating rigorous analysis and commentary.

2. Serpo came to light on ATS in late 2005 and consistent with ATS's original approach to all things that smell of hoax, the Serpo thread was closed by SO on February 6, 2006.

3. In early October, 2006, ATS announced their formal association with key Serpo character Christopher 'Kit' Green, MD. And as Ry pointed out, there were some charismatic (and probably well-funded folks) involved with Kit in this little adventure. I'm sure they didn't much appreciate the shutting down of their free advertising channel and I can only imagine the strategy planning that went on within this little well-funded group about their next step.

4. Shortly thereafter (July 26, 2007 to be exact) ATS announced they had received a significant chunck of change. Related ATS thread preserved here, but here's a snippet.

Image

5. And from then on, ATS has welcomed with open arms anything related to a 'personal experience' - regardless of how far fetched or groundless that 'personal experience' might be.

:roll:

And it's important to requote what Ry said previously

Ryguy wrote:What is it that Sun Tzu wrote in The Art of War about conquering an enemy?

"In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good."

"The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting."

"To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting. "


Seems like it was a very effective strategy, dontcha think?

:P
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Re: CLIFFORD STONE (the latest hoaxer sponsored by ATS)

Postby Access Denied » Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:40 am

Springer wrote:Here you go again with inflammatory titles...

It’s not inflammatory… it’s the truth.

Springer wrote:AD... IMO based on experience dealing with you, you think anything that is not yours is a hoax, I don't deal with people like that, that's why I ignore you.

I see, so in other words you only deal with people who reinforce your beliefs… “la la la I can’t hear you” lol You should start a cult…

Springer wrote:I don't care what any of you think about Clifford, I've met him and I've seen the documents, they are real. To call this guy a hoaxer is plain stupid (see Ryan's recent definition of a "hoax") he could be insane, delusional, or he may have really experienced everything he says he has.

Well, what you don’t know is there are people out there who met Clifford BEFORE he knew anything about UFOs and made his wild claims and subsequently taught him everything he “knows”… a “useful idiot” if you will, sort of like you. :D

Here's one example...

STONED AGAIN!
Saucer Smear, November 1st, 2001
http://www.martiansgohome.com/smear/v48/ss011101.htm

Former Army Sergeant Clifford Stone has become one of the most vocal and sensational supporters of former M.D. Steven Greer, according to recent material on the Net. When we met Stone a few years ago, he was working as a security guard in a shopping mall in Roswell, N.M. We had a pleasant, lengthy interview with him, and he told us of several military ufological angles he was researching regarding UFO secrecy. However, he definitely did not mention any personal experiences with aliens, or anything of the sort!

Apparently the wild-eyed atmosphere of Roswell has finally gotten to the good man, because now he has remembered several personal experiences from years earlier, when he was on active duty around the age of 19. About 1969 (he's not sure of the year), Stone was allegedly on duty in Indian Town Gap, Pennsylvania, when he was called upon to take radiation level readings from what appeared to be a heel-shaped crashed spacecraft. There were four dead aliens inside it, according to Stone's story.

On a different occasion, Stone and another soldier helped a live alien to escape from the military, as they felt sorry for the creature. Stone does not give any details at all about this incident, nor about why he was not courtmartialed if the story is true!

We are told that the first-mentioned incident involved details very much indeed like those given by Roswell witness Frank Kaufmann. This, by Saucer Logic, is confirmation, as it shows that almost identical spacecraft have crashed in at least two widely separated parts of the country! Wheee!

But now let’s say for the sake of argument he’s not a pathological liar and he really is nuts… has it ever occurred to you all you’re doing is exploiting him? If you really cared about Clifford’s well-being I’d say the best thing you could do is encourage him not to expose himself to public ridicule and the other assorted nutcases that frequent your forum and seek some professional help.

Also, who’s to say Clifford didn’t just make up his reptilian friend “Korona” that he talks to so people like you and the alien huggers that frequent your forum might think he’s crazy and feel sorry for him?

Springer wrote:I know for a fact nobody here will be able to prove he hasn't.

I would hope nobody here would feel obligated to… the burden of proof is on HIM. I know for a fact he can’t prove he has… question is can YOU prove ME wrong? Didn’t think so…

Springer wrote:Clifford has more evidence of a government coverup relative to the UFO phenom than anyone I've ever seen…

Then you need to get out more… seriously. There’s folks who’ve been at it a lot long than you or Clifford that *thought* they had the “smoking gun” evidence of a coverup… none of them have been able to prove it.

Springer wrote:…and the strange thing that lends credence to his story in my mind. He knew exactly what to ask for, what agencies to ask for it from…

You see that’s the difference between our site and yours, we believe in doing our homework first (you know the “evidence based philosophy” we keep going on about that you and your partner have such a problem with?) so (hopefully) we don’t make ignorant statements like yours above. If you had done your homework you would know everything Clifford needed to know he got from Robert Todd who through his own FOIA research stumbled on to Project Moondust/Blue Fly years before anybody else did.

I suggest you read the following newsletter written by Barry Greenwood of Citizens Against UFO Secrecy (CAUS) in 1986 (before Clifford made his claims) VERY carefully…

[emphasis mine]

JUST CAUSE NUMBER 8, JUNE 1986
http://www.textfiles.com/ufo/moondust.ufo

[right click on the link and save as a text file to view]

PROJECT MOON DUST

(In our last issue, we alluded to one of those many project code names which turn up from time to time in released government documents. Few of these are ever identified in more than brief detail. However, Project Moon Dust, as named in recently-released DIA files is an exception. We have several documents which do seem to link UFOs with this colorfully named project. Our thanks to Robert Todd for providing us with the backround information on his several-years-old research into Moon Dust.)

We have heard of stories, or more accurately -- rumors, of crashed UFOs and alien bodies recovered. Dozens of them are presently on file. Often in these accounts, military personnel respond quickly to a developing situation, enact a carefully-planned set of procedures (like photography, mapping, interviews, etc.); then, usually, the evidence is carted away to an unknown location for further study. That's what the rumors tell us.

You must have thought at times, while digesting these rumors, that such step-by-step action must have been scripted; that there muct have been guidelines to follow for everuthing to have been done so thoroughly and properly that not a stick of residue was left. You know how the military does everything by the book, as they tell us! If all this is so, then these procedures must be available for consultation when needed.

It's possible that we now have been pointed in the right direction to verify whether or not these procedures are on the record.

Salted through out some recent document releases, mainly from the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) and State Department, are references to "Project Moon Dust." The context of this codename to the rest of the published data was unclear, but the fact that it repeatedly turned up in documents dealing with UFOs told us that is was worth checking. A feeler was put into the March 1986 issue of Just Cause, requesting that anyone who had knowledge of Project Moon Dust to please contact us.

Not long afterwards, Robert Todd, a well-known CAUS researcher, informed us that he had researched Moon Dust in the late l970's. What he had found was quite revealing.

As a result of inquiries by Todd about Moon Dust, and other matters, the Air Force released a letter on August 20, 1979. It was identified as "AFCIN-1E-O", dated 3 November 1961. The letter was partly deleted, but enough was left to open the door on Moon Dust: (emphasis added where necessary--ed.)

Extract, page 1: "c. In addition to their staff duty assignments, intelligence team personnel have peacetime duty functions in support of such Air Force projects as Moondust, Bluefly, and UFO, and other AFCIN directed quick reaction projects which require intelligence team operational capabilitied (see Definitions)."

Extract, page 2: "f. Blue Fly: Operation Blue Fly has been established to facilitate expeditious delivery to FTD of Moon Dust or other items of great technical intelligence interest. ACIN SOP for Blue Fly operations, February 1960 provides for 1127th participation."

"g. Moon Dust: As a specialized aspect of it's over-all material exploitation program, Headquarters USAF has established Project Moon Dust to locate, recover and deliver descended foreign space vehicles. ICGL #4, 25 April, l961, delineates collection responsibilities."

Extract, page 3: "c. Peacetime employment of AFCIN intelligence team capability is provided for in UFO investigation (AFR 200-2) and in support of Air Force Systems Command (AFCS) Foreign Technology Division (FTD) Projects Moon Dust and Blue Fly. These three peacetime ptojects all involve a potential for employment of qualified field intelligence personnel on a quick reaction basis to recover or perform field exploitation of unidentified flying objects, or known Soviet/Bloc aerospace vehicles, weapons sustems, and/or residual components of such equipment. The intelligence team capability to gain rapid access, regardless of location, to recover or perform field exploitation, to communicate and provide intelligence reports is the only such collection capability available to AFCIN, and it is vitally necessary in view of current intelligence gaps concerning Soviet/Bloc technological capabilities."

Let's pause a moment to absorb this.

The letter immediately indicates that Moon Dust, "Blue Fly", and "UFO" are among A.F. Intelligence's quick reaction projects. It is probable here that "UFO" refers to Blue Book.

We have pointed out in CLEAR INTENT (pg. 9) that often the prefix word "Blue" has been used in connection with high-altitude vehicles, and it appears in several fact, and rumor, UFO projects. Here we see it again in "Blue Fly," which provided for transportation of Moon Dust material. And what did Moon Dust material include? Among other things, it included things acquired from the recovery and/or field exploitation of UFOs! Note how UFOs are set apart from Soviet/Bloc aerospace vehicles. Since the Soviets were the only other real space power in the world at the time, besides the U.S., what could have been meant by setting off UFOs as a separate subject of investigation? If they were British, or another nation's space vehicle, why not say this, as it was said for the Soviets?

Note that Moon Dust and "other items of great technical intelligence interest" were sent to the Foreign Technology Division at Wright-Patterson AFB in Ohio, under Project Blue Fly. FTD was the parent group for Project Blue Book. Coincidence?

Originally, Blue Book's investigative functions were partly aided by personnel of the 4602nd Air Intelligence Service Squadron (AISS). Part of it's mission during WW2, and later in peacetime, was to "exploit downed people, paper and hardware" for intelligence information. The 4602nd's operations were transferred to AFCIN in July 1957, which then assigned the 1006th AISS most of the 4602nd's operations. The 1006th was re-designated the 1127th Field Activities Group in 1960. These units all performed UFO investigations for Blue Book, but were trained for and capable of additional activities in the event that one of these UFOs had crashed somewhere.

We discuss the operations of a possible "quick response unit" in CLEAR INTENT, pg 111. Our point in that discussion was that such a unit would come under the highest security classification. Any admission that a UFO phenomenon was real and unexplainable would not be in the government's best interest to state, considering the still-existent debunking policy. Certainly here we see UFO investigation linked to the highest levels of the U.S. Air Force.

When did Moon Dust begin? We aren't sure but it likely dates from the beginnings of Blue Book at least, i.e. the early 1950s. It's entirely possible that the 1952 crashed disc incident reported in letters by Rear Admiral Herbert Knowles (see Just Cause, March 1986) could have been investigated under Moon Dust, if it were called that then. It certainly fits the criteria for attention, as described in the Air Force's 1961 letter.

Compelling evidence for the Moon Dust/ crash retrieval link and its early origins appears in Donald Keyhoe's 1955 book, THE FLYING SAUCER CONSPIRACY.

[snip]

Later FOIA requests have indicated that the DIA is currently the responsible agency for Moon Dust documentation. However, access is not being allowed because such access would reveal intelligence methods and are thus exempt from FOIA.

NASA has been involved as wall, as this extract from a Jan. 13, 1969, memo indicates:

"The undersigned {Richard M. Schulherr} visited the Foreign Technology Division of the Air Force Systems Command, Wright-Patterson AFB, Ohio, 9 Jan. 1969. The purpose of this trip was to identify specific items of space debris which had been forwarded to NASA and to re-establish personal liason with newly-assigned FTD Moondust personnel."

The Air Force's Moon Dust activity, as well as Blue Fly, is, in their words "no longer active." Perhaps the projects no longer go by these names but surely the procedures have not become obsolete. There is still a need to react to unknown vehicles landing on our soil. At the very least, national defense is served by such reaction.

One last thought. Could an MJ12-type committee have begun Moon Dust as a reaction to early UFO events like Roswell? It would be of interest to see exactly when Moon Dust began its operations.

I hate to break it to you (again) but this is really OLD news and Clifford (initially with the endorsement of Roswell crash proponents like Kevin Randle who I quoted earlier in the other thread and you ignored) has taken credit where credit isn’t due.

If you had done any research at all you would know even Kevin Randle has now changed his opinion of Stone’s credibilty…

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2005/11 ... itics.html

Sergeant First Class (SFC) Clifford Stone

Take as a quick example, the tales told by Cliff Stone. He says he was not trained as a clerk-typist when he joined the service but his Army records show only training as a clerk. His record shows that his only assignments were as a clerk or an admin specialist or in other roles in that arena. His record shows that he served in Vietnam, though it is not clear how long he was actually in-country. His records indicate that he was a clerk as the Army mission in Vietnam wound down and that he had no combat experience. He was awarded no decorations for valor.

Stone has said that when he reported for duty in Vietnam, he requested a combat assignment because he had no training as a clerk. His request was denied by the company first sergeant. He said that, during his tour, he would periodically crawl out of the base camp, through the wire, to engage the enemy. There is nothing in his record to suggest this is true. When he completed his Vietnam assignment, he returned to the United States and to the mundane world of clerk-typist.

Most Vietnam veterans would dispute Stone’s claims of personal firefights with the Viet Cong and his one-man missions outside the wire because they simply know better. Individual soldiers did not crawl through the base camp wire to engage the enemy. Those who tell similar stories have universally been shown to be lying about those events.

Stone and the Kecksburg Crash

To provide an additional example of embellishment, Stone has claimed that he was involved in the Kecksburg UFO crash. His role seems to have changed over the years, as additional information has come to light. For example, Stone had said originally he called the Unsolved Mysteries hotline after they ran their Kecksburg UFO story. Stone said he had personally witnessed the armed military convoy, helmeted soldiers and a flatbed truck carrying the damaged UFO out of Kecksburg. On Sightings in 1992, Stone made a similar claim (which means the claim is documented on videotape). Stan Gordon, the main researcher into Kecksburg, said that Stone told him that he, Stone, was a civilian and that a friend at Lockbourne AFB, Ohio, called to tell him that the UFO that was in the news had been brought to the base. The friend (conveniently unidentified), picked up Stone and drove him to the base where Stone hid in the car in the parking lot outside a back gate and saw the convoy carrying the UFO arrive, stay awhile and then leave for Wright-Patterson AFB, also in Ohio.

Stone has not renewed these claims since 1992 or 1993. Now, however, when challenged about his involvement in this case, Stone claims that he "remote viewed" the site. He hadn’t physically been there but had "seen" it. This seems to be a new twist to explain how Stone, then a 16 year-old student living some 90 miles away from Lockbourne AFB and not all that close to Kecksburg, might have been in a position to see the convoy. So, in all, Stone has claimed to have been in Kecksburg, then, rather than being in Kecksburg to witness the convoy and all the ancillary events, he changed the story to having seen the convoy arrive at one Air Force base before it was transferred to another. And, finally he remote viewed it. So, which version is the truth?

Stone and Project Moon Dust

As added evidence, if such is necessary, Stone has suggested that it was his research and his inside knowledge of government UFO investigations that lead us to the secret UFO project known as Moon Dust. He claims to be the first to reveal anything about it but when challenged to provide specific information, he has failed to do so, giving the excuse that he is not free to discuss all aspects of his military service.

What this means is that we know the code name of Project Moon Dust was changed after it was compromised in the mid-1980s. Since Stone suggests that he was the source of the original information for Moon Dust he released classified information and since he was part of that project, at least according to him, he should know the new, and classified code name. But, when we asked for the new name, he said that he wasn’t free to give out that information. Stone "cherry picks" the information he shares with us, but the real point is that nothing he provided was key to learning anything new. In other, more precise words, he told of nothing that wasn’t already available in the UFO community through other sources. But more importantly, there is no way to verify his claims because he would refuse to answer the specific questions, claiming that he was not free to release the classified details. With no way to verify his claims there simply is no reason to accept his story as being true.

How much more evidence do you need before you admit he’s a hoaxer and like Lear and Sleeper should be banned from ATS according to your own T&Cs?

Springer wrote:…and they all lied to him and two U.S. Senators swearing there was nothing of the sort in the records. I've spoken to the Senator's offices, the letters are real. When Clifford provided the proof he "shouldn't have had" since it was a deeply buried and denied program the government admitted it and claimed it was nothing and immediately renamed and reclassified the whole damn thing.

And you’re surprised because??? Has it ever occurred to you it’s none of your business and that’s actually a good thing?

Springer wrote:That's alot of denial and hiding of NOTHING.

No, that’s a denial of SOMETHING… a classified program to recover crashed objects… you know like airplanes, missiles, rockets, satellites and stuff of potentially huge intelligence value? We’d be stupid not to and even more stupid to let our enemies know we had and who is responsible for doing it. Clearly you have no concept of or respect for National Security…

Furthermore, it’s pure fantasy to believe it was a program created to recover crashed alien spaceships (they came all this way only to crash in the end… frequently?) and it’s even more ridiculous to believe that if they ever did they could keep it a secret for very long even if they wanted to. Where’s your evidence they have?

[FYI: Unidentified Flying Object (UFO) doesn’t mean ALIEN SPACESHIP]

Springer wrote:I don't care what you think AD, you have zip,nothing but criticism for anyone trying in UFOlogy that doesn't buy your schtick.

Unlike you I’m not selling anything… and for the record I respect HONEST researchers who are simply searching for the answers and following the evidence wherever it leads… it’s not their fault they’ve been misled and are suffering from confirmation bias. :)

Springer wrote:Clifford has millions of documents, years of working the system for information…

Are you claiming he obtained all of them himself? Also, please provide evidence to support your claim that he has “millions” of documents.

You might want to check here for duplicate FOIA documents and to learn about all those “secret” code words and stuff that Clifford “shouldn’t have known”…

The Sign Historical Group
http://www.project1947.com/shg/janfold.htm

[emphasis mine]

This inventory of government UFO material represents documents collected by over 40 individuals whose efforts span decades. This collection required tens of thousands of dollars and man-hours to assemble. The collection, contained in 24 "stor-all" boxes and one legal-sized four drawer filing cabinet, comprises well over 50 linear feet of papers concerned or related to government UFO investigations. The current inventory represents about 85 per cent of the complete holdings. Other material has yet to be categorized or filed, and some of this listed material will be further organized into additional separate files.

[snip]

When this collection is taken together with Barry Greenwood's impressive collection of government documents, these two nearly complementary holdings show the spectrum of government UFO interest over the last 50+ years. It should be noted that while there are significant overlaps in both collections, much of the material is exclusive to either Greenwood's or this collection.

The core of both collections is the material found and assembled by Robert Todd of Pennsylvania. His ceaseless efforts resulted in the release of huge amounts of documents by various government agencies. Over half of both collections originated with material originally found by Robert Todd. To date much of this material has seen only limited dissemination.

Shame on Clifford Stone for taking credit for other people’s work and shame on you for promoting him!

Springer wrote:…and he does NOT get the money for FOIA forum (it's not doing well anyway).

You haven’t been paying attention…

http://www.realityuncovered.net/forum/v ... 803#p15803

Access Denied wrote:We need member volunteers to review FOIA documents
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread315349/pg1

SkepticOverlord wrote:Also, there is "warm and fuzzy" side to our effort here... a significant portion of the ad revenue generated by the discussion and views surrounding these documents will be sent to Mr. Stone and his family. Finally, we get to thank him in the best way possible for his life's hard work -- the awareness he desires and the financial compensation he deserves.

Are you saying Bill is a liar or are you saying you guys are going to screw Clifford too?

Springer wrote:His book might have made him a couple thousand dollars over FIFTEEN YEARS, the museum gig is volunteer work.

Gee, I wonder why?

Springer wrote:Keep trying and one day you may be relevant mate. ;)

I’m irrelevant? I’m crushed. Oh well, at least I'm having fun... how about you?

Springer wrote:I just don't have the time or the desire to defend every member on ATS who your lot disagree with or think we are "sponsoring".

You could have fooled me. Maybe you’d have more time if you didn’t spend so much time “moderating” your “favorite” hoaxer’s threads… but then they wouldn’t last as long as they do now would they?

Springer wrote:I've said it several times here in this ATS Watch, WE DON"T PROMOTE THE CONTENT THE MEMBERS DO.

BS… no matter how many times you keep saying it. We (RU) promote content, why don’t you? Bill has already admitted staff members can flag threads… that’s like what potentially 60 "votes" in the bag right there? That’s enough to drive just about any thread you want onto the front page. Do you really think the folks who are reading this are that stupid?

Springer wrote:Every CIVIL and POLITE challenge to Clifford will be tolerated, the snide trollish crap you use as an example will not. Simple.

Since when is everybody who thinks somebody else is full of crap and says so much in so many words a troll? How do you know they didn’t do the research you failed to do? If that’s how you want to play the “politically correct” game then everybody on your site who says the government is full of crap should be banned too lol. Your hypocrisy and ignorance precedes you Mark.

Next…

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Re: CLIFFORD STONE (the latest hoaxer sponsored by ATS)

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:54 am

This single post by AD has destroyed what little respect I had for Mr. Springer. Well done, AD.

Your statements about Clifford Stone are clearly biased, Mark. And with all your claims that you know he is the real deal, you have provided absolutely zero evidence to back up your emotional claims about him, and that does not even begin to address the fact that he has provided no evidence to back his own claims! That is weak enough, but then to blatantly promote him as you do (all I need to read are you words here at RU) makes me ill. You clearly do not stand for the truth.

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Re: CLIFFORD STONE (the latest hoaxer sponsored by ATS)

Postby ryguy » Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:17 pm

Yes...and this single post by AD has elevated my respect for AD even more than it was at before (and I didn't think that was possible).

Well written AD - and thanks for providing so much background on Stone. Maybe it will provide a little insight to people who think that going out there, looking a guy in the face and shaking his hand, is some kind of golden key to the truth...as though a person can't lie to you if you're looking them straight in the face.

I'm still waiting for that huge "revelation" Springer and Crakeur were promising regarding those amazing documents. Or did I miss it? Maybe they're following our definition of "imminent"? (Sorry Steve...LOL).

-Ry
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Re: CLIFFORD STONE (the latest hoaxer sponsored by ATS)

Postby Zep Tepi » Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:28 pm

Haha, you swine!

I would be very interested in reading what Springer has to say in reply. In my opinion, AD's post is one of the most well constructed and perfectly explained "rebuttals" I have ever read. It doesn't get any clearer than that.

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Re: CLIFFORD STONE (the latest hoaxer sponsored by ATS)

Postby Shawnna » Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:30 pm

Well done, AD

:NTWRTHY


And glad Ry said it (sorry Steve - you know I luv ya!)

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Re: CLIFFORD STONE (the latest hoaxer sponsored by ATS)

Postby Zep Tepi » Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:34 pm

My life moves so fast, what is forever for some seems imminent to me ;)
Before you know it, a year has passed and it feels like a day! It must be my metabolism...

Heh :)

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Re: CLIFFORD STONE (the latest hoaxer sponsored by ATS)

Postby Chorlton » Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:34 pm

Zep Tepi wrote:My life moves so fast, what is forever for some seems imminent to me ;)
Before you know it, a year has passed and it feels like a day! It must be my metabolism...
Heh :)
Cheers,
Steve


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Re: CLIFFORD STONE (the latest hoaxer sponsored by ATS)

Postby Springer » Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:28 pm

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread360862/pg1 ;)

And June is blowing that away.

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Re: CLIFFORD STONE (the latest hoaxer sponsored by ATS)

Postby Chorlton » Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:40 pm

Springer wrote:http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread360862/pg1 ;)

And June is blowing that away.
Springer...


And,, as has been mentioned.....Quantity doesnt equate to quality.

It just means youve had more nutcases visiting =P~
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Re: CLIFFORD STONE (the latest hoaxer sponsored by ATS)

Postby Zep Tepi » Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:35 pm

Springer wrote:http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread360862/pg1 ;)

And June is blowing that away.

Springer...


What an incredibly revealing statement.
In response to serious concerns raised by several people on whether ATS is sponsoring/pushing/promoting known hoaxers/hoaxes, you make a post regarding the number of visitors you've had!

That tells me the ATS management couldn't care less about the veracity of the content, as long as the people keep showing up in droves, who cares eh?

Edit to add:
If you are going to promote the site under the "Deny Ignorance" motto, do not be surprised when people take offence when the exact opposite is being practised by those that actually run the site.

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