Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

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Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby JiveTurkey » Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:28 am

Been browsing the forums for a short while now and figured I would address a few of my opinions in regards to ATS and the discussion of ATS here at RU and several other forums.

Let me state for the record that i do not buy into this 'cointelpro' deal.

It is my opinion (and has been pretty much since the beginning) that ATS is a private business run by individuals working in collaboration.

However, this does not mean that i don't believe that the flow of data is controlled, monitored and, in some cases, censored beyond any sort of rational level.

It is my opinion that these things are done for the sole purpose of revenue. (There are also cases of certain threads and posts being censored/deleted simply because a staff member didn't like them or agree with them)

Bill (skepticoverlord), makes a habit of throwing the "numbers" around on the site on a near daily basis. This is usually done in response to one of the many users who are expressing their "concerns" with the direction in which ATS is headed and/or some of the bullcrap that goes on there on a daily basis in regards to members and certain "treatment". However, he is also quite fond of throwing them around when he finds the opportunity to delve into the self aggrandizement bag and point out how nearly every thread (if searched word for word) will show up at the very top of any google search.

Then, we have the rules that are set into place so that ATS can avoid those net nanny filters in public places. One of the major ones being the "censor circumvention" rule.

Both of these things deal almost exclusively with keeping the numbers up in order to maintain the revenue of the site.

I know this is a VERY simplistic explanation of why I feel like I do about this particular subject. However, it would take several posts to really lay out exactly why I feel the way i do.


From there, I would like to address this whole censorship/cover-up/blatant lies about former members, situation.

I have already told my tale, so I will not repeat it here. However, most of us here are VERY familiar with at least a few members who were given the ax for reasons that were never really made clear to them. Most of us also know a member or two who received near constant praise from the staff of ATS until they caught the ban hammer out of nowhere only to find that they are also now on the receiving end of blatant lies and insults from the staff when members question the sudden disappearance of whatever persona happened to catch the ban hammer that day.

A prime example of this is the situation with John Lear. While I know a good number of you here do not like John and think he's a total whack job, that doesn't take away from the way he was treated AFTER his banning in comparison to BEFORE his banning. (This "banning", according to staff, never happened. However, this same story has been told about several members who still can't seem to log on and/or post.) What one thinks of John is totally irrelevant here. The ONLY reason I bring him up is to provide an example of the different stance ATS staff take on someone AFTER they have been banned when compared to BEFORE. John received a great deal of praise from Mark (springer) and Bill for a hell of a long time until the time of his banning. The "amigos" would often jump into a JL thread and crawl some JL troll ass and proceed to tell what a valued member of the community that John was.

However, it was almost immediately after his banning that the whole staff took a sudden "John Lear contributed nothing and he did not help the site in any way, shape or form during his time here" stance. Now, whether or not John DID contribute anything to the site doesn't matter here. What matters is the abrupt 180 that the staff pulled in regards to John after his banning. They basically went from a "JL is the best thing since sliced bread" attitude to "WHEW, we are glad that nut finally left!" attitude. In other words, they went from a "promote, promote, promote" gameplan to a "deny, cover-up, discredit and deflect" gameplan.

This particular "issue" is by far the most aggravating and disgusting for me personally when it comes to ATS. I could understand a simple ban and shut up operation, however, the sometimes months long insults that certain banned members receive (while not being able to respond for themselves in their own defense) from membership and staff alike is truly pathetic and not very becoming of a forum that so loves to toot it's own horn in regards to it's professionalism.

This leads me to my next "issue" with ATS. The staff of ATS seems to make quite a habit of getting their panties in a bunch when they come into other forums (such as mine and RU) and receive a few "attacks" from some of the membership. Is it just me? Or are they being a wee bit hypocritical here?

Sure, they may not receive the best of welcomes at some of the other conspiracy sites. However, THEIR past actions are usually the sole reason for the piss poor treatment they receive from time to time. While this fact is pretty much common knowledge, they are quite quick to go straight for the "look at the hypocrisy here at blahblah site and how much hostility we received when we were just trying to clear up some issues." crap anytime they are faced with a level of hostility on a forum that doesn't exist under the umbrella of The Above Network. It's during these times that they seem to forget that, even though they may receive a few harsh remarks, WE actually allow them to join up and state their position/defend themselves. Seeing as how they don't afford hardly anyone else this same courtesy on ATS, I don't feel they have a leg to stand on here. However, this little bit of fact doesn't seem to much matter to them as they seem to be of the mindset that only they have any rights when it comes to having a say-so or a voice.

Okay, let's move on to the next issue link on the chain.

There are several staff members of ATS (most notably, SkepticOverlord, Springer, Crakeur and MirthfulMe) who seem to be far more efficient at hurling insults at the lesser members than actually contributing anything of value to the forum. The staff are so quick to throw a goofy image in place of a post that is a bit insulting by a regular member only to turn right around and throw a post together that consists of little more than insults and self backslapping directed at other regular members. How can the staff of ATS even BEGIN to expect regular members to follow this little rule when the staff is so frequently (and blatantly) destroying it??? If the staff is going to go above and beyond in an attempt at mud slinging, should the members NOT be expected to do the same thing?


while these are only a few of my "issues" with ATS, they are certainly some of the more "important ones". I just wanted to take a few and throw these thoughts out there while they were biting at me.



that's all now, move along;
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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby Chorlton » Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:20 pm

Very well said, that man. ! Mirrors the thoughts of myself and I would suggest others here, though we will now probably be subject to SO and S saying it aint so.

Well they would, wouldnt they :lol:
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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby Access Denied » Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:33 am

Hi Jasn, thank you for sharing your thoughts and (a belated) welcome to RU.

Great post, you make some excellent points. I think Torbjon summed it up nicely with his current sig… “Expendable Guy”… you, me, and many others both here and elsewhere… and now even Lear have learned that in the end we are just another number at ATS.

Unfortunately I don’t see that changing anytime soon as evidenced by the “concern” expressed here by the owners. From where they sit nothing’s wrong as long as the numbers are going up. Fortunately, there are alternative places like your site where one can still feel at home and actually be a part of the community and have a voice.

In my opinion ATS is a victim of it’s own “success”… or more precisely the desire to “succeed” and go “mainstream”… a goal that’s fundamentally at odds with the “counterculture” it represented. Combined with a management philosophy ill conceived to handle it, ATS has reached and surpassed it’s critical mass and now one must scream to be heard above the din… welcome to chaos. :)
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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby Springer » Fri Jun 13, 2008 7:27 pm

Never argue with an idiot. He'll only take you DOWN to his level and beat you with experience!
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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby Zep Tepi » Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:43 pm

I can play that game too. What's more, my answer is relevant to the topic.

Just posted here

Zep Tepi wrote:
Springer wrote:http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread360862/pg1 ;)

And June is blowing that away.

Springer...


What an incredibly revealing statement.
In response to serious concerns raised by several people on whether ATS is sponsoring/pushing/promoting known hoaxers/hoaxes, you make a post regarding the number of visitors you've had!

That tells me the ATS management couldn't care less about the veracity of the content, as long as the people keep showing up in droves, who cares eh?

Edit to add:
If you are going to promote the site under the "Deny Ignorance" motto, do not be surprised when people take offence when the exact opposite is being practised by those that actually run the site.

Cheers,
Steve


Like I said above, incredibly revealing.
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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby Shawnna » Fri Jun 13, 2008 11:16 pm

When will you start charging Mark for posting like there here, Steve?

:wink:

Obviously it is being done to drive traffic to ATS. The least you should do is charge them for the privilege of advertising their b.s. site here.


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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby remus » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:32 am

Springer wrote:http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread360862/pg1 ;)

Springer...


You say that ATS is all about the members and their content yet both you and Bill answer any criticism with statistics.
The problem with statistics is that they are easily manipulated, i do it all the time in my proffesion when making a proposal to increase my departments budget.

That your members have issues means nothing to you as long as the counter keeps clicking over...

tick...tick...BOOM.
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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby Springer » Sun Jun 15, 2008 6:22 pm

Steven,

Bill and I have spent way more time than the handful of complainers (Torbjon excluded) on this site are worthy of trying to help them understand our BUSINESS. We've shown where the hoaxers are outed, we've admitted to mistakes, there is no value for us in this idiotic, round and round the may pole, never ending, bitch session.

I'll say it one... more... time... It's USER GENERATED, USER PROMOTED CONTENT.

The membership and the visitors decide what's important and THAT's what rises to the top. Obviously, based the stats, the PEOPLE LIKE IT. Sorry if the people HERE don't, but that's just life isn't it? We'll never please everyone and we're not interested in trying, that's where most entities fail miserably, trying to be all things to all people.

Ryan had it right a few days ago when he spoke of a young corporation building revenues, but then, HE got on some bizarre kick about Kit Green manipulating us. :lol: It's just ludicrous to bother here anymore.

Have a nice one. :)

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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby JayKew » Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:12 pm

Ha ha ha, there he goes flouncing yet again and in doing so he contravenes his own dearly beloved T&C about "goodbye" posts.

It seems that what is strictly required of his members does not apply to his own posting etiquette. He has all the class and principles of your everyday internet warrior.

For what its worth I am not surprised that he has flounced.

Its obviously due to ADs response to his defence of Clifford Stone.

It is a long time since I have seen such a destructive critique of a post . It was brilliantly delivered and left Springer no avenue of retreat. All that was left for him to do was to hoist the white flag.

Congratulations on such a wonderful demolition job AD.

I should imagine that Springer has been well and truely bollicked by Overlord now because of this and I bet on reflection, Overlord is sorry that he allowed Springer to hit the send button for that ludicrous post of his.

Because to my mind, irregardless of what may be said its fairly obvious that Overlord pulls all the strings and blows all the whistles on ATS. It is clear he runs a tight ship and will be mightily annoyed that Springer overstepped the mark by shooting off his mouth. Springer will probably like Simon Gray, the Founder of ATS, be put out to grass soon if he commits any more faux pas.

The promotion of Clifford Stone does finally lay to rest that its a dash for cash not an attempt to deny ignorance that is the core of the philosophy of ATS.

For what its worth I think the RU forum leaves ATS still on its starting blocks when it comes to intelligence, logic and integrity.

Its a pleasure knowing you all.

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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Sun Jun 15, 2008 8:31 pm

JayKew wrote:Its obviously due to ADs response to his defence of Clifford Stone.


Obviously. It is worthwhile to note that Springer has not touched a single thing in AD's post. Nor will he. In fact, let me make a prediction: I predict that Springer will NEVER address so much as ONE point of evidence about Stone that AD has raised.

It is not surprising that Springer will not address this evidence. But the real question that he should answer is WHY he feels it necessary to prop-up and promote Stone with the words he has written here on this forum. If it really IS "all about member-promotion" at ATS, then why does he jump in here and obviously promote Clifford Stone's warez?

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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby JiveTurkey » Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:06 am

Springer wrote:Steven,

Bill and I have spent way more time than the handful of complainers (Torbjon excluded) on this site are worthy of trying to help them understand our BUSINESS. We've shown where the hoaxers are outed, we've admitted to mistakes, there is no value for us in this idiotic, round and round the may pole, never ending, bitch session.

I'll say it one... more... time... It's USER GENERATED, USER PROMOTED CONTENT.

The membership and the visitors decide what's important and THAT's what rises to the top. Obviously, based the stats, the PEOPLE LIKE IT. Sorry if the people HERE don't, but that's just life isn't it? We'll never please everyone and we're not interested in trying, that's where most entities fail miserably, trying to be all things to all people.

Ryan had it right a few days ago when he spoke of a young corporation building revenues, but then, HE got on some bizarre kick about Kit Green manipulating us. :lol: It's just ludicrous to bother here anymore.

Have a nice one. :)

Springer...




Damn Mark, you sure do love the petty insults eh?

You haven't spent any time doing much of anything but spreading the same ridiculous banter that you toss around at ATS.

I agree that this is pretty much a "round and round the may pole" situation. However, it's YOU AND BILL who are doing the fairy dance around said pole. You have been asked SEVERAL straight questions and have refused to address pretty much all of those questions that have some relevance.

Of course we already know that you can't answer them without some foot in mouth syndrome befalling you. However, that doesn't mean that WE are in the wrong for asking. The very least you could do was ATTEMPT to make up some bullcrap response to said question. Or, hell, you could even balls up a bit and actually speak the truth in regards to them.

How about a little "We don't give a s*** what any of you think. Yes, we are in this for the money. Yes, you guys get screwed from time to time because you throw a potential roadblock in the way of some revenue. Yes we have benefited financially off the minds and names of some of our users only to attempt to tear them apart after they decided that ATS wasn't what they thought it was in the beginning."

We all already know this. We definitely know that you know we know this. Let those testicles descend and man up about it.

I know you get all shy when Bill isn't around. Perhaps you can go get him for a bit of support and to help you find the words needed to continue your dodging of the relevance here.


I have said this before and I will say it again. ATS is a joke. From "deny ignorance" to "the best staff on the internet" and everything in between. You guys can speak of the success and the numbers all you want to as it doesn't really amount to anything. Everyday people pay good money for bags of s*** and it doesn't matter what those numbers look like. At the end of the day, it's still s***. The same can be said for ATS.

You guys spend so much time focusing on the dollar bills that you don't focus near enough time on quality. For this reason, your site will ultimately fail. We are all aware of the constant throwing around of "5000+ posts a day" and so and so numbers but what does that really say about the site? Absolutely nothing to someone who can actually step back and look at the very limited number of those posts that have any worthwhile substance to them.

Many members actually believe in ATS. That is why you have so many defenders ON SITE. They are there because they truly care about the ideals behind ATS and they believe that they are accomplishing something. Unfortunately, those same members are quickly coming to realize that the whole spiel of the "amigos" and other staff members is nothing but a fancy advertising slogan. This can be evidenced by the massive number of long termers who have decided that ATS is no longer worth their time.

ATS has absolutely no heart. Sure, the words are there....but what good are words without dedication and follow through? What good is all the propaganda if it never amounts to anything?



Sure, you guys might have a hell of a business plan in full effect over there right now. However, there is absolutely no way in hell that it can continue on the current path. With the current state of affairs over at your site, the path's all lead to a dead end.


Sorry if this reply got a bit winded and incoherent at points, I'm 40 hours overdue for sleep haha.
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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby Chorlton » Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:04 am

Jive, youve just put together what we have all been saying for months now.
Ive said it all along, all they have to do to regain some respect is to cut the BS and say "OK its a business and were in it for the money" stop all the pathetic crap about truth and reality.
Anyone with half a brain soon realises what thoes amigos are doing. They are attempting, with all their BS to make people feel wanted and feel they really are doing something when all the amigos want is money.
Hey theres no problem with that so long as honesty reigns but it doesnt. They are attemtping to fool their contributors.
The problem is, maybe they have been saying the same crap for so long they actually believe it themselves ??????
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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby ryguy » Mon Jun 16, 2008 2:28 pm

I was watching the movie "Lions for Lambs" last week, and one scene immediately brought this situation with ATS to mind.

Stuck between telling the version of a military invasion that a Senator wanted her to tell, a journalist argued with her editor that the way news is being told today is far different than the days before the corporations took over all of the major news organizations. The editor points out that this is the news that the people want to hear.

We have to understand that America is being driven, more and more, by corporate interests - not truth. It doesn't matter if the majority is right or wrong, corporations want to appease the majority for the simple fact that they also hold the majority of the money. Anyone hoping to earn substantial income should never get into the business of researching or writing news stories today unless they are willing to "sell out" and feed junk food stories - because that's what the majority "likes". If more people buy french fries loaded with fat - then make it even more fattening and maybe they'll buy more. That's the mentality of the corporation. And that's the mentality of a media company hoping to obtain corporate sponsorship. It's not just ATS - it's the entire media...it's a symptom of increasing corporate power in the America.

Shoud majority opinion force the direction of media - and in effect the direction of public policy and our country?

The answer to that, I think, lies in a quote from a movie we watched this weekend..The Great Debators. In one scene, during one of the first debates this black school (Wiley College) held against a white school (Oklahoma) regarding whether or not schools should remain segregated, one of the white debators pointed out that any time changed was "forced upon a majority who did not agree with it", that change was doomed to failure. It was a good point...after all, in a democracy we believe that "majority rules"...and the minority be damned and deal with it.

The character, Samantha Booke, stood up at the podium and countered that argument with a statement that destroyed his point completely.

“We must never kneel down before the tyranny of a majority.” she said defiantly.

So - I guess here we stand folks. A minority of free-thinkers dedicated to truth, while corporations and the mentality of the "majority" overrun the country with intellectually numbing junk food. News reporting that focuses on corporate interests and revenue above truth.

On a very small scale we are seeing, right here, a small sampling of what is happening to our country as a whole.

What's the solution? Damned if I know. I'm hoping one of you might stand up with an answer. Or maybe some charismatic leader will stand up against this oncoming wave of corporate influence and greed. Are there any more heros left in this country?

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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby Shawnna » Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:36 pm

Well written and spot on, Ry.

As to whether or not there are any heros, I would say it doesn't take a hero.

It takes each individual willing to stand up for what is right and then walk away from selling out for the sake of personal gain (whether that is short, or potential long-term gain).

We all ultimately have to look at ourselves in the mirror each day, and as long as I truly like what is looking back, I can feel confident I've made good choices that day.
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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby TheSkepticOverlord » Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:12 pm

JiveTurkey wrote:Bill (skepticoverlord), makes a habit of throwing the "numbers" around on the site on a near daily basis.

I do? Really? On what do you base a statement like that? I could agree with monthly, but certainly not daily.


JiveTurkey wrote:This is usually done in response to one of the many users who are expressing their "concerns" with the direction in which ATS is headed and/or some of the bullcrap that goes on there on a daily basis...

There's that "daily basis" again... as if you're trying to promote the myth that we have complaints and/or members with issues day-in and day-out. On what do you base an implication of such grand proportions?


JiveTurkey wrote:Then, we have the rules that are set into place so that ATS can avoid those net nanny filters in public places. One of the major ones being the "censor circumvention" rule. Both of these things deal almost exclusively with keeping the numbers up in order to maintain the revenue of the site.

If you did just a little bit of research, you'd quickly discover that the rules about swearing and content that would trigger filters were put in place before the site even had advertising. In fact, such policies were begun by Simon even before I was a staff member. However, in April of 2003, we did get more strict with enforcement, and that's around the time our traffic began to grow.


JiveTurkey wrote:A prime example of this is the situation with John Lear.

You're right. Our reasons for John Lear's post ban (it still is just a posting ban) were initially elusive and we didn't reveal the entire story. It was our hope (at the time) that the issues would eventually be resolved and if not, our explanation provided him a "graceful exit" should things change in the more distant future. However, when it became clear he wasn't interested in a resolution, I gave him full permission to post our entire private exchange on Zorgon's website. While we tend not to discuss the rationale behind bannings on ATS, I wanted to ensure he could reveal what he believed to be the "record."


JiveTurkey wrote:John received a great deal of praise from Mark (springer) and Bill for a hell of a long time until the time of his banning

Actually, I still praise John to this day. It's possible to both express frustration over the "souring" of a professional relationship and continue to admire key attributes of that person. Granted, there may be just as much to dislike as there is to like about John, if not more so, but as a human being I still hold him in high regard and always will continue to wish him well.

Also, it seems you're not completely "up to speed" with what we've discussed on ATS regarding John Lear. Have you see this post and the related follow-up discussion?



remus wrote:You say that ATS is all about the members and their content yet both you and Bill answer any criticism with statistics.

The ever-growing traffic numbers indicate more and more people have a high degree of interest in what our members are saying. What other way would you look at increasing popularity?


remus wrote:The problem with statistics is that they are easily manipulated

Which is why we're using industry-standard sources that have been open to multiple audits for our statistics -- Google Analytics and Quantcast.


remus wrote:That your members have issues means nothing to you as long as the counter keeps clicking over

The percentage of our members with "issues" is amazingly small, and well-expected when we attempt to maintain an environment not everyone can "grok."




JiveTurkey wrote:You guys can speak of the success and the numbers all you want to as it doesn't really amount to anything.

Why?


JiveTurkey wrote:However, there is absolutely no way in hell that it can continue on the current path.

On what business and/or Internet experience do you base such a definitive statement?

Are you aware that a group of disgruntled former members who were banned for their excessive swearing, pranking, and drug-related topics formed another small discussion board and all essentially parroted the same thing you're saying here? They all got together in their little corner of the Internet, made up lots of lies about ATS, nodded their heads that we were doomed to fail very soon, and all five of the core "anti-ATS" trouble-makers agreed we were pure evil. If this sounds familiar to you, it's not about your site, don't worry. The site was "The Shadow Confederacy," and they had their fun in early 2004. Today, two of them are on staff, one is a hell-of-a solid contributing member, and another is on ATS from time to time.

We've seen this before.
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