Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby TheSkepticOverlord » Wed Jun 18, 2008 6:37 pm

ryguy wrote:I agree - it's pretty disingenious of S.O. to imply that CNN or NYTimes stories have linked to ATS as a "source",

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/09/techn ... ref=slogin

The F.B.I. is still not certain whether the ring’s actions were for profit or part of a state-sponsored intelligence effort. The potential threat, according to the F.B.I. agents who gave a briefing at the Office of Management and Budget on Jan. 11, includes the remote jamming of supposedly secure computer networks and gaining access to supposedly highly secure systems. Contents of the briefing were contained in a PowerPoint presentation leaked to a Web site, Above Top Secret.
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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby ryguy » Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:41 pm

TheSkepticOverlord wrote:Contents of the briefing were contained in a PowerPoint presentation leaked to a Web site, Above Top Secret.[/color]


COOL....any other examples...or is that the single one? :)

I take back my Wal-Mart comment, by the way. It appears that ATS is actually the place where government informants go to anonymously "take a leak".

Making ATS more of an outhouse than a Wal-Mart. ;)

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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby Shawnna » Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:51 pm

:bncgball:
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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby TheSkepticOverlord » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:27 pm

ryguy wrote:Making ATS more of an outhouse than a Wal-Mart. ;)

Interesting.

Clearly, you didn't read the source thread and/or opening post. Or notice that the thread first gained national exposure on slashdot weeks before the NYT article.

It seems that no matter what I provide in terms of data that refutes unsubstantiated comments/claims, it'll be rejected or ridiculed out-of-hand. Why on earth should I consider providing you with more?
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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby MrPenny » Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:26 am

I don't get it. Bill Irvin has consistently kept to the message--to paraphrase --"it's the users who generate the content, decide on its value, and drive the site". He has made zero claims as to the "quality" of the content. What he has shown, are trends that show the content of ATS to be more acceptable to the general population. (God help us all) Bill, and many of the owners, admins, and moderators know that a portion of the content on ATS is best described as "looniness". I have that on good word by the way.

Yet, despite his complete silence about the "quality" of ATS, he continues to get hammered here at RU. What is it about "evidence driven"....whatever? He's done nothing but present evidence that supports his comments. And I swear, I can nearly see the words go in one ear, and out the other.

I'll repeat this.....ATS is drawing from the "average" pool. If you, or I, don't fit into that demographic....which do you want to be? Above or below the average?
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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby ryguy » Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:35 am

MrPenny wrote:I'll repeat this.....ATS is drawing from the "average" pool. If you, or I, don't fit into that demographic....which do you want to be? Above or below the average?


I agree with you 100%. It's still fun, sometimes, to make fun of the below average - even if they do make up the majority. ;)

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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby MrPenny » Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:13 am

ryguy wrote: It's still fun, sometimes, to make fun of the below average - even if they do make up the majority.


Well sure....that's 'bout the only reason I ever go there anymore. I'm not the brightest bulb in the box, but it's still like shooting fish in a barrel.
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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby Access Denied » Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:18 am

ryguy wrote:COOL....any other examples...or is that the single one? :)

Apparently that’s it… although I must admit this one must be a little less embarrassing for the membership than their last attempt to capitalize on a hoax in the MSM… the “user generated” ATS branded O’Hare “UFO” pic.

ryguy wrote:I take back my Wal-Mart comment, by the way. It appears that ATS is actually the place where government informants go to anonymously "take a leak".

Making ATS more of an outhouse than a Wal-Mart. ;)

LOL… actually it appears the source of the "leak" isn't even a member of ATS. Note the date on this blog entry I found on the web site that the OP on ATS linked to…

http://www.donkeyonawaffle.org/index.py ... ounterfits

Counterfeit Hardware

Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:44

I received this Powerpoint from one my professors at James Madison University Infosec (Thanks Brett). It turns out there is a rampant issue with the creation, sale, and purchasing of counterfeit information technology hardware. Specifically the report calls out Cisco related products such as routers and switches. These are the very devices that make up the heart and soul of the Internet. While I guess I always knew that the possibility was there for reverse engineering of and thus construction of counterfeit hardware, I never really saw it in writing somewhere that outlines the severity of the issue. Check out the slide deck for more details.

What makes this really scary is that the creation of counterfeit hardware lends itself very well to the introduction of low level firmware based rootkits and other subversive mechanisms. If foreign governments or crime syndicates were to really do this right, they would be selling counterfeit systems that capture and disseminate data or alternatively could be easily disabled in a time of war (information warfare techniques). The later would be extremely difficult to detect, with a high degree of assurance, especially if the implementation of the subversion was done sparingly and not on all devices.

Scary stuff huh?

That was nearly three months before it was posted on ATS making the OP’s story sound more than a little suspicious…

A few weeks ago, my sources have been providing information on a scathing investigation summary by the FBI. They've indicated that a critical Powerpoint document has been quietly circulating after a few internal presentations. While the Powerpoint presentation has been labeled unclassified, it is an official FBI publication and has been hard to track down. Thanks to key clues provided last week by two sources (both of which do not have the presentation, but have seen it), specific searches on the content of the document have turned up an online source, and I've provided all pages of the document below, along with the link to the discovered source. (The ATS upload would not allow a PPT file)

…and one of the ATS admins "dug" the thread on Digg shortly after it was posted and it got picked up from there. Interesting that nobody challenged the OP’s claim on ATS. Smells like another inside job to me lol… only this time they got lucky and even the NYT was fooled.

I’m a kind of shocked apparently nobody on Slashdot noticed this either. I'd be pissed. :wink:

TheSkepticOverlord wrote:Clearly, you didn't read the source thread and/or opening post. Or notice that the thread first gained national exposure on slashdot weeks before the NYT article.

Thanks for the Slashdot link, much better. The ATS thread had me yawning.

TheSkepticOverlord wrote:It seems that no matter what I provide in terms of data that refutes unsubstantiated comments/claims, it'll be rejected or ridiculed out-of-hand. Why on earth should I consider providing you with more?

I don’t know, as long you equate “hits” with “quality” and continue to ignore the concerns of what I would consider some of your most intelligent members (both past and present) I don’t see the point either. In my opinion you haven't refuted anything yet with your “near daily” posting of stats as JT pointed out earlier. It’s obvious to me all you’re really doing is avoiding answering the really tough questions posed by JT, TJ and others...

*shrugs*
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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby torbjon » Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:43 am

MrPenny wrote:I don't get it. Bill Irvin has consistently kept to the message--to paraphrase --"it's the users who generate the content, decide on its value, and drive the site". He has made zero claims as to the "quality" of the content. What he has shown, are trends that show the content of ATS to be more acceptable to the general population. (God help us all) Bill, and many of the owners, admins, and moderators know that a portion of the content on ATS is best described as "looniness". I have that on good word by the way.

Yet, despite his complete silence about the "quality" of ATS, he continues to get hammered here at RU. What is it about "evidence driven"....whatever? He's done nothing but present evidence that supports his comments. And I swear, I can nearly see the words go in one ear, and out the other.

I'll repeat this.....ATS is drawing from the "average" pool. If you, or I, don't fit into that demographic....which do you want to be? Above or below the average?


uh, I could be wrong but I believe the point has to do with the 'deny ignorance' credo and people just got sidetracked on 'quality'. Yes. everything you have said about Bill (the claims he has made) is true and that would seem to validate certain beliefs that the 'deny ignorance' philosophy is no longer the dominating force behind ATS.
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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby JiveTurkey » Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:33 am

Bill,

I can't and won't speak for the rest of the people here. However, it is my opinion that you are still taking the comments and questions regarding ATS as personal attacks.

While I know that you see ATS as being YOU, I do not. In my eyes, my discussions of ATS (and the policies there) having absolutely nothing to do with you unless I direct my comments AT you.

Unfortunately, you seem to be incapable of understanding this. For that reason, I'll just bow out of this discussion as it's going nowhere fast.

Perhaps it would be best if you did the same?



Take it easy,
J


ADD: In the off chance you DO wish to actually accomplish something here, AD posted some excellent questions and observations in another thread that you guys (Mark and Bill) have yet to address.
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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby MrPenny » Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:14 pm

torbjon wrote:
the 'deny ignorance' philosophy is no longer the dominating force behind ATS.


Maybe the strategy is different...."display ignorance" on a grand scale, could serve as a means to reverse a trend. Long before the evolution of one-way mass media--television and radio--the printing press brought about a Reformation, in which every person with the necessary literary skills could participate in the exchange of ideas and reason. An exchange of written, or typed, words is a powerful means of collaboration. The power of corporations and governments to feed information in a one-way stream, usually via images, can be countered by these types of activities. But it will take a lot of participation to be useful.

I personally don't think "Deny Ignorance" means to be so haughty that I can't rub shoulders with it, engage it, and try to shine a little light on it. I think to deny it, you must engage it.
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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby Chorlton » Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:50 pm

MrPenny wrote:
torbjon wrote:
the 'deny ignorance' philosophy is no longer the dominating force behind ATS.


Maybe the strategy is different...."display ignorance" on a grand scale, could serve as a means to reverse a trend. Long before the evolution of one-way mass media--television and radio--the printing press brought about a Reformation, in which every person with the necessary literary skills could participate in the exchange of ideas and reason. An exchange of written, or typed, words is a powerful means of collaboration. The power of corporations and governments to feed information in a one-way stream, usually via images, can be countered by these types of activities. But it will take a lot of participation to be useful.

I personally don't think "Deny Ignorance" means to be so haughty that I can't rub shoulders with it, engage it, and try to shine a little light on it. I think to deny it, you must engage it.


Well I'd go along with that if only the Gang of 3 would accept their ignorance.
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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby ryguy » Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:40 pm

MrPenny wrote:I personally don't think "Deny Ignorance" means to be so haughty that I can't rub shoulders with it, engage it, and try to shine a little light on it. I think to deny it, you must engage it.


That depends what you mean by "engage" it. For example, Hal Puthoff has privately said the same thing (in not so many words) about his "rubbing shoulders" with the likes of Rick Doty, Victor Martinez, and Bill Ryan and engaging in the process if the distribution of a hoax (all knew about Rick's history and that the data was coming from Rick).

If by "engage it", you mean fully investigate the aspects of ridiculous claims that can be vetted in order to add support to a story, or disprove it - then yes, I agree that such ignorance should be engaged. However, if by "engage it" you mean that we should temporarily "suspend judgement" (a.k.a. - "suspect logical thinking"), then I have to disagree with a great big no-freakin'-way.

And by the way Torb - no one got "sidetracked". The quality aspect is tied directly to ATS' failure to Deny Ignorance.

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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby ryguy » Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:45 pm

Access Denied wrote:…and one of the ATS admins "dug" the thread on Digg shortly after it was posted and it got picked up from there. Interesting that nobody challenged the OP’s claim on ATS. Smells like another inside job to me lol… only this time they got lucky and even the NYT was fooled.

I’m a kind of shocked apparently nobody on Slashdot noticed this either. I'd be pissed. :wink:


Phenomenal post AD...nice research! I guess even the NYT hires reporters who conduct sloppy research too... or maybe they just took someone at their word (that the original source of the material was ATS), when they should have followed up for themselves. But maybe they figured that aspect of the story (where the briefing was leaked online) wasn't relevant or important enough to verify. lol...

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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby MrPenny » Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:39 pm

ryguy wrote: However, if by "engage it" you mean that we should temporarily "suspend judgement" (a.k.a. - "suspect logical thinking"), then I have to disagree with a great big no-freakin'-way.


That's definitely not what I meant. Your first definition is closest.

Maybe it's a matter of lacking an actual definition of "Deny Ignorance". Does it mean to to deny it in a static fashion; by refusing to see it rear its ugly head at all--a "head in the sand" approach? Or dynamically, by inviting it....then "engaging" it with reasoning and contemplation in a collaborative attempt to reduce its impact on society and culture?

I think the value statement "Deny Ignorance" will be argued for a long time until its definition is firm, agreed on, and shared.
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