Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby lost_shaman » Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:25 am

remus wrote:How does a conspiracy master get away with posting this crap.


mikesingh is a Conspiracy Master! Holy crap now I think I've seen it all.

Is ATS planning to make Conspiracy Masters of the India Daily Technology Team too?
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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby remus » Sun Jun 22, 2008 2:01 am

Hi torbjon.
I wish i could flag and star your last two posts multiple times.

:lol:

A basic example of what i find troubling.
"User Driven".

I, as a new member start a thread, i have researched it well, i have provided good evidential links, quotes from reputable sources and complete my post with a well thought out opinion piece on the subject. My thread has 10 flags and 10 stars on my post fairly quickly and is hovering at the top of the recent posts page. It's not a sensational topic but it seems to be gathering some interest from the membership.

At roughly the same time a "conspiracy master", well known amongst the membership starts a thread with a sensational subject title, but is basically a rehashing of a 4 year old story that was pretty much proved to be a bit of a nonsense. The OP is nothing more than an email from what most intelligent people would regard as a nutcase and a quick "what do you guy's think". This thread also has 10 flags and stars and is hovering at the top of the recent posts page along with my thread.

Along comes a moderator, see's the "conspiracy masters" thread which has just started dropping down the list and immediately hits it with multiple flags and stars, he also lets other's know of the plight of this new thread by one of their conspiracy master, very quickly 3 or 4 staff members flag and star the thread and suddenly the thread has 20 flags and stars and jumps onto the "hottest topics" page, overtaking my thread and relegating it to the bottom of the pile.

Is that "User Driven" or "Site Driven" content?

Btw, that was all hypothetical, but is it possible?
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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby torbjon » Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:11 am

Is that "User Driven" or "Site Driven" content?

Btw, that was all hypothetical, but is it possible?


you askin' me??

First, I wouldn't say "site driven" as that is too close to "user driven", I'd say "Staff Driven" which is really what you mean, yes?

Second, ya, sure, Anything is 'possible'...

Do they actually DO THAT? *shrugs* I dunno. That'll take more data... how interested are you in actually finding out?
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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby remus » Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:31 am

Lol, rhetorical question really but i'll take an answer from anyone interested enough to reply. :)

torbjon wrote:Do they actually DO THAT? *shrugs* I dunno. That'll take more data... how interested are you in actually finding out?


Well, im interested enough to keep checking in to see if SO has answered the question of whether or not staff are able to multiple flag and star threads and posts.
Well actually i know for a fact that staff are able to multiple star posts, more interesting would be to know whether they are able to multiple flag threads as that seems to be what drives the "hottest topics".
Either way it has no bearing on anything that i do but is an interesting exercise nonetheless, after all i believe in conspiracy theory's. :)
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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby torbjon » Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:30 am

"Moderator" NGC2736 claims to have starred and flagged this thread: (second post on the page)

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread356220/pg1

"Moderator" kleverone claims to have starred and flagged this thread: (second post on page)

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread362322/pg

and so on and so on..

so the 70+ mods and staff CAN at least single star and flag a thread...

whether or not a Single mod or staff member can give Multiple stars or flags, c'mon comrade... do you honestly believe that S.O. will answer that in the affirmative if it's true? The system is already too top heavy and if a hummer like that Ever got out the system would come crashing down...

Although I do feel that having 70+ votes more or less under your control gives the amigos a LOT of Power, dontcha think?

And then, of course, there's always the S.O. factor... he, like me, is a Virtual God over his domain... We have access to our servers on a command level and can do whatever the bloody 'ell we feel like with our content whenever we feel like it... we can post donkey porn or racist slurs or foul language or Anything Our Little Sweet Hearts Desire 'cause it's 'MINE!' *smirks*

sure, there may be ramifications LATER... but that's Then, this is NOW, ya know?

Anyway, taking the S.O. factor out of the equation, even if staff / mods can only give One star and One flag per thread, do you feel that that makes the system a little 'top heavy'?

In THEORY 'mods' are here only to Moderate and Mediate, not Generate or Promote, yes?

... I feel some half life coming on...

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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby lost_shaman » Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:55 am

Hey Torbjon,

Speaking of "Staff" generated Vs. "Member" generated content.

Here is a podcast in which John Lear credits S.O. ( Bill ) with the "Strip Mine" hypothesis. AD are you paying attention?

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/ancientfut ... -beth-vegh

3:54 - 4:31

"I didn't really realize what we had found until Ron "Zorgon", the infamous "Zorgon", came along and started finding the equipment and he found the "bucket Wheel excavator" which was clear as a bell on that Copernicus photograph that I obtained from NASA that was really it and then S.O. from ATS was the one that pointed out that the whole North face of the Copernicus crater looked exactly like a strip mine, which it does." - 3/10/2007
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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby Access Denied » Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:42 pm

lost_shaman wrote:AD are you paying attention?

Yes but unfortunately I haven’t had time to properly reply and thank Torbjon and Remus for their outstanding research.

[been swamped with IT consulting work… my second job]

I really think Torbjon hit the nail on the head with his latest series of posts! It would appear Bill has all the “machinery” in place to promote any topic they wish even if their membership doesn’t. ;)

This may have something to do with do it…

“don’t just advertise, participate”
http://www.theabovenetwork.com/ads.html

Talk about scary…

AboveTopSecret.com, is a diverse group of intelligent people who tend to be the opinion leaders among their peers. Outspoken, opinionated, and well-read, these users are demanding and skeptical -- yet have proven over and over again they will enthusiastically embrace marketers who understand and participate in their online culture.

How do you figure? Because you’ve got them all brainwashed into supporting (for free!) the very thing they claim to oppose most… ignorance!?

You make a good point as well LS regarding "management driven" content, SO started this thread shortly after Springer started the main “John Lear’s Moon Pictures on ATS” thread…

Lunar Strip Mine in John Lear's Moon Photos??
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread226381/pg1

Topic started on 18-9-2006 @ 08:55 PM by SkepticOverlord

SkepticOverlord wrote:Okay, I can't stop dwelling on this damn image.

Springer and I helped prepare 5 high-res photos of the massive Copernicus lunar crater in this thread: John Lear's Moon Pictures on ATS

In the course of discussion and the search for small oddities, I think something massive may have been overlooked in this image:
Copernicus2-full.gif (6.2 meg)
Copernicus2-medium.gif (900 kb)

Is it me or...

does that look exactly like a strip mining operation?

Am I crazy?

To which Lear replied in the very next post with this amazing prescient prediction…

johnlear wrote:No your not. Somebody is eventually going to come acroos some other indications of a full fledged mining operation which, at the time of the photograph, in 1966, was in full operation.

So was Bill in on this hoax and promoting it? It would appear so.

This is also why I think he didn’t bother to restore my 450 posts that Simon Grey “accidentally” deleted after I let them know I had received a better copy of the image from NASA and I was banned from ATS… strikingly similar to what happened to Torbjon when he stumbled on to some “issues” with the ATS branded O’Hare photograph which to this day Bill still is promoting as “real”.
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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby ryguy » Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:46 pm

Damn guys...nice work - all of you.

No paranoid conspiracies, just fair and balanced review of the facts as they are posted. I'm very impressed. A little disturbed by what it suggests, of course, but absolutely impressed.

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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:18 pm

AD,

The real question becomes what, precisely, was involved in "preparing" an image when SkepticOverlord states:



SkepticOverlord wrote:Springer and I helped prepare 5 high-res photos of the massive Copernicus lunar crater in this thread: John Lear's Moon Pictures on ATS


What is all involved in "preparing" a digital photo? Certainly, as we saw in the Chicago Ohare photo, "preparing" would appear to include placing ATS signage on it. But what ELSE might it include? :roll:

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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby torbjon » Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:03 pm

Ray:

I was there then and actually paid attention to most of that for a good while, even played with the pics (it was FUN! *grins*)

As I understand it, the original was something like an 18 X 24 inch hard copy Photograph that John had framed in his study or office or bathroom or something *shrugs*

It was too big to fit into his printer/scanner thingy so he had a buddy of his (can't remember who, it's in the thread though) use a Hand Held Scanner to digitize the photograph. The result was like four or five (or maybe more) long strips of digitized image...

The strips needed to be put back together into a single image again, AND that image was HUGE, very hi res, mega mega mega bytes of memory... so ats made some low, medium, and hi res images, and I think they did some in jpg and some in tiff and some in gif etc...

Basically I think they were tryring to make the image as widely available to people as possible and also present the original in the rawest form possible...

I believe that that is the 'preparing' that S.O. is talking about in that post.

As an aside, I spent a LOT of time looking at those pictures then (like I said, it was FUN! *grins*) and I do not recall ANY product branding on ANY of the images at that time (it may be there now, I dunno... )

So, the O'Hare image got product branded right away because it was 'destined' for massive online distribution and S.O. wanted to keep the 'source' intact...

BUT

JLs pic did NOT get product branded / labeled even though it received More attention and distribution...

interesting...

Anyway, I think yer barking up the wrong tree on that one, dog, too many people world wide went over those pics pixel by pixel... if there was any 'tampering' with the original I'd like to think that somebody somewhere would have figured that out by now... ya know?
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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:01 pm

Torb,

OK, I did something I usually don't do... I clicked over to ATS just to look at the picture. Now here is something interesting. Let's align what you said in your reply just now:

torbjon wrote:It was too big to fit into his printer/scanner thingy so he had a buddy of his (can't remember who, it's in the thread though) use a Hand Held Scanner to digitize the photograph. The result was like four or five (or maybe more) long strips of digitized image... snip

The strips needed to be put back together into a single image again


and now compare that with SO's original statement about the photo:

Is it me or...

does that look exactly like a strip mining operation?


See what I am getting at here? Quite obviously, whoever stitched the image back together did a terrible job of contrast matching (or perhaps did no contrast matching at all!). Thus, the lines of the original scan "strips" are clearly visible in the final "prepared" photo. And oh yes those lines will certainly have an impact on how someone (anyone) perceives the entirety of the photo. IOW, they can well cause you to come to an interpretation that you may NOT come to if you saw the photo sans-strip artifacts. Agree?

What always troubles me about crap like this is that no one wants to get specific. Did SO explain, ANYWHERE, what he specifically thought were things in that photo that made him think it looked like a strip mining operation? I cannot find anything. So what he has done is merely "throw out a suggestion" but provided absolutely NO discussion of any details that lead him to the conclusion behind that suggestion. To me, I cannot see anything that would even suggest to me it is a strip mining operation. It certainly does not have clear, level layers which a strip mind would have. It certainly does not have the roads and ramps that a strip mine has. For the life of me, I cannot identify one, single, SPECIFIC feature that would tell me it is a strip mine. Rather, I see things that (if you squint your eyes and turn your head) might be construed as something that might kinda look like what a strip mine MIGHT look like if it were abandoned and left to erode for a century or two! :shock:

For reference, here is a photo of a strip mine in Arizona:
Image

I don't see it!
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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby torbjon » Sun Jun 22, 2008 8:33 pm

Ray:

This is Not the place for this discussion, not being a prick, love chatting with you, this just ain't the place for that...

having said that, let's chat *laughs*

I was part of that conversation over there and followed it to Zorgons site, and chatted with Zorgon via email a LOT regarding that and other images and even contributed some image work of my own for Zorgons site (it might still be up on his site, I dunno *shrugs*)

I know that Zorgon and others took the image apart and put it back together again 'better' than SO (or whoever) originally did and got the strips to line up better...

As far as the image goes, there are TWO sets of strips to deal with, the ones from JLs scan, AND the ones for NASA as the original image is many strips of film pieced together (by NASA)

BOTH the NASA strips (horizontal) and the JL strips (vertical) are messed up *shrugs* Regardless, there are still good solid chunks of 'un messed up' image to work with, and no matter what anybody thinks of Zorgy and his theories the pics ARE fun to look at.

That discussion ran for well over a 100 pages and a LOT of folks worked on and discussed those images, and a LOT of folks feel like you (they just don't see it) and a lot of folks totally buy into it... I just think they are fun to look at and play with *shrugs*

As far as SO just tossing out a 'wow, it looks like this to me' and leaving it at that... *shrugs* so what? ya, sure, it's cheeky and lazy and more than a little cheap, but again, so what? Other people were already 'finding' and discussing 'anomalies' in the image by that time, saying they see this or they see that... S.O did the same thing...

of course S.O and gang also advertised the 'ELL out of it and promoted it and elevated it and tolerated a lotta whack and encouraged JL and Zorgon and so on and so on but that's another story.

again, not trying to shoot you down or be a prick, but I feel that the actual IMAGE is a dead end... the POLITICS behind the image and the 'story', well... you might wanna visit Zorgon and chat with him about that... I know a lotta folks here don't seem to care for him too much but I've always had good business dealings with him and he seems like a pretty straight shooter to me

edit to ad:

oh, that image you posted of a REAL strip mine? I do believe you'll find that same image (and others like it) in that thread as comparison models... it sure does look familiar to me...

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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:30 pm

Torb,

torbjon wrote:As far as SO just tossing out a 'wow, it looks like this to me' and leaving it at that... *shrugs* so what? ya, sure, it's cheeky and lazy and more than a little cheap, but again, so what?


The "so what" speaks directly to some of the things you (and others) are pointing out in this thread. In fact, you even made my point later in this post:

of course S.O and gang also advertised the 'ELL out of it and promoted it and elevated it and tolerated a lotta whack and encouraged JL and Zorgon and so on and so on but that's another story.


No, that is THE STORY (*pokes*). What I am saying is that another tactic of SO's to promote totally BS interpretations is to throw out "lazy" statements such as he did with this image. In fact, given that he pointed out not a single specific item that lead him to that conclusion, one could assume that his only purpose in saying it looked exactly like a strip mine was to get the "true believers" excited (and returning). Not only that, but it also looks almost like a de-facto setup for Lear to make another unsubstantiated claim.

again, not trying to shoot you down or be a prick, but I feel that the actual IMAGE is a dead end... the POLITICS behind the image and the 'story'


That is my point. I see the image as being a whole lotta nuttin. But I see SO's claim that "does that look exactly like a strip mining operation" to be grist for the conspiracy mill. Fuel to Lear's fire. By any dispassionate observation of those photos, I can find nothing that tells me it looks exactly like a strip mining operation. Furthermore, I can only barely identify artifacts that would even suggest it resembled one.

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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby torbjon » Sun Jun 22, 2008 10:41 pm

okay, we're totally on the same page then.

Yes, fuuly agree that mods and staff do that at ATS... the recent mikesingh rehash of a four year old thread is another example of how that is continuing still at ATS.

Lack of critical thinking and lack of deny ignorance on their parts sets the stage for continued like behavior by the membership.

These guys, Bill especially, are Experts at 'marketing' which is just another word for 'manipulation of the masses'

a casual phrase, a few choice words, and whamo, 100 page thread in just a couple of days *shrugs*

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to blow you off, it just seemed so obvious to me...

I feel that that whole fiasco along with a few others in 2006 (including O'Hare) were 'tests' by them to see how well they could control their boards and membership and drive people to specific areas (web pages) etc. in order to convince their 'investors' to fork over the 'venture capital'.

Have you watched their little marketing movie? Great Stuff from a corporate standpoint, scary as all 'ell from a consumer standpoint...

we're all just troggs... what we have to SAY doesn't really matter...
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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby ryguy » Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:26 am

torbjon wrote:we're all just troggs... what we have to SAY doesn't really matter...


It doesn't matter only to them. It would certainly matter to others. Maybe the focus of what folks here have to say is being said in the wrong direction. After all - if someone catches a corrupt corporation polluting a community and making the children sick...how far do you think that whistleblower will get if they take their grievances back to the company itself?

Now - how much further do they get when they turn those words in a different direction?

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