Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:38 am

torbjon wrote:I feel that that whole fiasco along with a few others in 2006 (including O'Hare) were 'tests' by them to see how well they could control their boards and membership and drive people to specific areas (web pages) etc. in order to convince their 'investors' to fork over the 'venture capital'.


Well, with respect to the example we are talking about, one would wonder if there was a higher-resolution version of the Copernicus image already available that gave more detail than the "manufactured" (or shall we say "processed") version of the photo from Lear?

In fact, I wonder if there is a NASA version of the photo available which would include the chroma key information and contrast calibration information for that photo? From what I know about professional instrumented photographs, this information is typically stored as part of the digital photo itself, and usually lies outside the "frame" of the photo. Such calibration information would be necessary if anyone wanted to show where other versions of the photo may have been manipulated. And one should note that this is definitely a professionally instrumented camera photo, because like all NASA moon photos, it contains calibration grid points right there in the photo. So I am sure somewhere there exists a photo with all the calibration information still intact.

I'm just sayin'...
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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby Access Denied » Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:02 am

You Can Call Me Ray wrote:Well, with respect to the example we are talking about, one would wonder if there was a higher-resolution version of the Copernicus image already available that gave more detail than the "manufactured" (or shall we say "processed") version of the photo from Lear?

Actually there is, I asked for and got a better copy from NASA in October of 2006 (a month after Lear posted his) but Bill and Mark weren’t interested in hosting it and when I mentioned this on ATS I was banned. This is documented in a number of threads here and also in this thread on Bad Astronomy if you’re interested…

http://www.bautforum.com/conspiracy-the ... ost1149187

One wonders why they wouldn’t be interested in hosting a better copy… perhaps because it wasn’t scanned by Bob Lazar?

Also discussed later in the above thread is the failure of Lear’s supporters to cross check several other hi-res images available of the same area for comparison after I pointed them out in this post of mine on ATS in June of last year…

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thr ... pid3237991

Interestingly, it wasn’t until March of this year (some 9 months later) that an observant poster “ArMaP” finally cross-checked the “anomalies” on the other images per my suggestion, in this case the “crane” looks amazingly like some rocks and stuff in hi-res…

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thr ... pid4144227

As usual when something or someone the staff supported and promoted is debunked on ATS it is ignored and unacknowledged. I wonder why?

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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby torbjon » Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:26 am

Ryguy:
Now - how much further do they get when they turn those words in a different direction?


what direction would you suggest?

I see two: outward - public awareness, or inward - litigation / arbitration.

I'm not sure they are breaking any laws by manipulating their web site the way they do, so I doubt litigation will go anywhere.

Arbitration is a voluntary action... would love it if they would sit down at the table with us but they don't seem too interested in that either...

has anyone watched their little movie yet?

http://www.theabovenetwork.com/advertising.html

Technical and artistic issues aside, the Content is kinda scary...
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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby Zep Tepi » Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:54 am

torbjon wrote:has anyone watched their little movie yet?

http://www.theabovenetwork.com/advertising.html

Technical and artistic issues aside, the Content is kinda scary...


Veeeery interesting...
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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby ryguy » Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:03 pm

torbjon wrote:what direction would you suggest?

I see two: outward - public awareness, or inward - litigation / arbitration.


You got it - #1

I'm not sure they are breaking any laws by manipulating their web site the way they do, so I doubt litigation will go anywhere.


I agree. However the general public is often much more interested in things that a corporation is doing that may be "legal", but not entirely "ethical", if you get my drift...

Arbitration is a voluntary action... would love it if they would sit down at the table with us but they don't seem too interested in that either...


Would you? If something you are doing is benefiting the bottom line - why on earth sit down at the table with an small organized group who has a problem with it? Instead, just label them as a paranoid rag-tag group of complainers and whiners and walk away. That technique has worked for them for years, so why stop now?

Technical and artistic issues aside, the Content is kinda scary...


For the past half-year, I've been doing non-paranormal related work to earn some actual income for my family doing a second job. As part of that work, I've had to go through some intensive training on the current state of SEO - what works and what doesn't...and in particular what works most effectively lately compared to what used to work even two or three years ago.

If you have a message that you need to distribute to the general public, and distribute in a big way, you don't necessarily need a giant monster forum with thousands of users to do it.

You need a targetted and efficient marketing campaign that includes the entire arsenal of what the search engines look for when they rank a site - a few choices, off the top of my head, include an article-writing campaign using the top 100 article directories (with the highest hit-rates), a blog/forum posting campaign hitting the top 20 or 30 internet forums that touch on the subjects we're discussing here - corporate marketing, advertising ethics, public privacy issues, etc... Then there's PRWeb and related news source avenues of distribution - especially for any significant issues uncovered by you guys that represent something that the public would recognize as "newsworthy"...

You see - when you report an issue to a corporation, they smile and nod and say that they hear ya', and they'll "get right on that". Then they sit on their thumbs. But when you take the issue to the public, and generate a very real public response, that's when "real" action starts to actually occur.

Obviously this is on a much, much smaller scale, but the civil war was kicked off in large part by the publication of several novels, like "Uncle Tom's Cabin", which spread awareness about an issue taking place in distant parts of the country. And the rest was history.

So yeah...I'm talking about an organized and focused effort to raise public awareness.

How many people in the public have ever heard of ATS? ATS seeks to raise awareness about ATS in a positive light, right? It's called marketing. So what if a group of concerned citizens also seek to raise public awareness about ATS...albeit maybe in a slightly different light. They say any publicity is good publicity right? Although Enron may not agree. :)

We only need worry about lawsuits, by the way, if we ever fail to have supporting evidence to support what we are writing. Thankfully in this country, if you write the truth with evidence to support it - you can write whatever you like and wherever you like.

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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby Chorlton » Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:17 pm

ryguy wrote:We only need worry about lawsuits, by the way, if we ever fail to have supporting evidence to support what we are writing. Thankfully in this country, if you write the truth with evidence to support it - you can write whatever you like and wherever you like.
-Ry


Indeed, tis the same here in the UK. Libel isnt libel if its the truth.
Remember the Milli Vanilli scandal a few years back?. There were a lot of summonses thrown around then. Some in my direction. But the truth came out.
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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby torbjon » Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:38 pm

Ryguy:

I guess the primary question that I have is what are peoples Goals (intentions) and Why? (ie have they really thought it through)

What does raising public awareness about some less than ethical practices at ATS accomplish in the long run?

I mean, suppose some group of people raise public awareness to the point where the public is Outraged, they stop going to the site, and the site is forced to close down due to lack of traffic...

...and then what?

Shutting them down is NOT the end of the story. Something happens after that... what is that something and is that something the goal we (they, whoever) wishes to achieve?

Suppose we manage to shut them down... what is going to stop someone else from doing the Exact Same Thing? And now we have to do it again... and again... and again...

That seems very non-productive to me and a complete waste of everyones time, or, at the very least, a waste of MY time.

On the other hand, suppose we can convince them to willingly sit down at the table with us and pro actively work Together to make ATS not only a highly successful and profitable venture for Them but also a Safe, Happy and Healthy place for 'us' (those people who don't currently fit into the ATS mold)

So YES, my First choice would be to work with rather than against them. (arbitration) I feel that having East and West voluntarily sit down at the table and discuss ways to disarm and work towards mutually acceptable goals is a good thing.

If one or both parties Refuses to sit down at the table then we have no choice but to use those weapons and I feel that should be a last resort.

I keep mentioning Tylenol / Ford Pinto but either folks don't remember or haven't looked it up yet...

Those companies were at the TOP, they were Number One, they were the biggest and the best and the most popular in their field... they were ATS.

The Pinto had some design flaws and a grand total of 27 people Died perhaps due to those design flaws (perhaps not). 2,000,000 units were built, 27 people died, equals 0.0000135 % (S.O. likes numbers)

That percentage is sooo freeking insignificant that Ford decided that it was Cheaper to just pay off lawsuits than to recall and redesign their product. This is what ATS seems to be doing now...

There was a LOT of 'public awareness' over that issue. It cost Ford a little business, a little money, they lost some respect... but they are still there churning out inferior products... NOTHING was really accomplished by all of that public awareness, Ford still does business they way they always have.

Now comes Tylenol. A grand total of SIX people died from contaminated Tylenol... Out of the Hundreds of Millions of units on the market the percentages there are so freeeeeeeking insignificant I'm not sure I can type that many zeros after the decimal point.

Within 24 hours Johnson & Johnson recalled specific lots of potentially contaminated product.

Within 144 hours Johnson & Johnson issued a directive stating that ALL 31 million bottles of Extra-Strength Tylenol capsules were to be pulled off of merchant shelves World Wide.

Sales of other Tylenol products and Johnson & Johnson stock Plummeted.

Johnson & Johnson redesigns their delivery system, inventing / perfecting the 'gel cap' closely followed by 'tamper proof packaging' and re-introduce their product to the market accompanied by a massive ad campaign.

J&J SOARS back to the top of the list, And Stays There still to this day. They are Number One, the most Trusted, the most Respected...

All due to an insignificant percentage of system failures.

I like it that my kids bottle of baby Tylenol has that little plastic 'tamper proof' seal on it... I'm very very Sorry that six people had to Die just to get that little strip of plastic on that bottle. I feel that if 'public opinion' had sided with those six people and stormed the factory and burned it to the ground the world would NOT be a better place to live in today, even though it may have felt really really Good to do that then.

I am a statistically insignificant system failure on the part of ATS. It sucks but there you have it.

I can Hate them, I can help raise public awareness as to how "evil" they are and rouse up enough sympathy and troops to storm the factory and burn it to the ground... that might actually feel very very good in the here and now...

Explain to me how that helps my daughter tomorrow.
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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby ryguy » Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:44 am

torbjon wrote:Explain to me how that helps my daughter tomorrow.


The same way media reports alerted the public to the problem that people were dying from the design flaws of those vehicles.

Had there been no public education letting people know that there was a problem, it would have been swept under the rug. Change comes from public awareness.

Now if you want to continue negotiating with "the company" in the hope that they'll sit down at the negotiating table with you and acknowledge there's a major problem that needs to be fixed...well...we've seen already that they don't even acknowledge there's a "problem" in the first place.

So, now what?

One method I can imagine making somewhat of an impact is by educating the public regarding the overall corporate-owned-and-driven media, and the problem that causes for those in the public who expect certain content, but receive another. Should news be driven by corporate interest? How fascinating to offer up this example, on a much smaller scale, of an up-and-coming media website that professes to "deny ignorance" being overtaken by corporate influence. I can picture some fascinating and intriguing articles that draws direct parallels between what's happening with a young corporation trying to play with the "big boys" - getting sucked into the same corporate control-of-content quicksand trap that the other media giants of today now find themselves in.

Let's face it - media producers who portray themselves has unbiased and dedicated to the truth (a.k.a. "deny ignorance") are selling out to corporate interests in direct conflict with those altruistic promises to "the people".

I'm sorry...I just don't see negotiating going anywhere. These people will not negotiate - instead they sneer down at you and laugh like you're a bug. As far as I can see it, the only progress here comes from playing hardball. And since we're smaller and fewer - it needs to be done in a very specific, targeted, and efficient way that can make the most impact with the smallest effort. A focused and precision operation.

But as you've pointed out well...there needs to be a common goal for everyone involved. Everyone else should speak to that. I was only suggesting a few powerful tools that can be used to create public awareness toward whatever that goal is. But I'm sorry - I just don't see negotiating going anywhere, when it's with a company that refuses to even acknowledge that there's a problem in the first place.

-Ry
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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby torbjon » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:46 am

Rather surprised that No One has opted to contribute to this particular part of the conversation other than Ryguy...

at the very least to ream me for for perhaps 'appearing' to be 'sympathetic'... (for the record, do not be deceived by the whiteness of the turban; soap is bought on credit)

ryguy wrote:
...when it's with a company that refuses to even acknowledge that there's a problem in the first place.


They have been admitting for Years that there is a Human Element 'Problem' with the system. I've read the phrase "breakdown in communication" at least a dozen times in various places from the amigos. Both Bill and Mark admitted to a Human Element Failure in the System right here on RU just recently. I remember admissions of such failures During and After the Serpo incident.

They've Acknowledged the Problem.

But they counter with "it's so statistically insignificant that it doesn't matter".

I believe that the statistics are Not insignificant.

I've offered two examples of 'similar' scenarios which included Global 'public awareness'.

In one the 'company' chose to continue to do business they way they always have (which is what ATS seems to be doing) and in so doing made a lot of money (which is what ATS will probably do)

In the other, the 'company' chose a radical change in business policy, invested massive amounts of money, suffered a dramatic set back... but in the end emerged Victorious, On Top, and made More Money than they ever dreamed of.

"Public Awareness" played No Part in those "Business Decisions". Those decisions were made purely on Profit Margins. "What's Going To Make Us The Most Money?"

Johnson & Johnson could have swept it under the rug and waited the two years for the 'public' to 'forget' and continued to do business as normal and STILL made a boat load of money (just like Ford did and -perhaps- ATS will) but they didn't.

The public is 'aware' of dwindling fuel supplies and the rising cost of petrol. The public has been 'aware' of this my entire life. I'm not seeing an influx of EV1's on the highway... in fact, as I understand it, they were all recalled and destroyed.

The public is 'aware' of world hunger. The public has been 'aware' of world hunger my entire life. We still subsidize farmers to Not produce food. Funny that.

The public is 'aware' of how corrupt America is. After sex and drugs that's all the public talks about, how messed up things are. Barely half of them VOTE though. How much more 'aware' do they have to be?

No.

Passing this problem off onto the public and hoping that they will pull their thumb out and Do Something about it FOR US seems like a real cop out to me.

WE'RE the ones with the hair up our butt, it's Our Problem and Our Responsibility.

I still see two solutions to Our Problem: Peaceful Negotiations or Open Warfare.

I'm skilled at both. I prefer the former but will embrace the latter if need be.

If the latter is the consensus then I believe we need to go underground away from prying eyes and discuss tactics.

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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby remus » Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:01 pm

torbjon wrote:Rather surprised that No One has opted to contribute to this particular part of the conversation other than Ryguy...


Sorry, been a busy week.
I wasn't sure if i could really contribute anything further other than what ive already done, however i do enjoy a bit of investigative research so i would be happy to help out if required. ( seeing as i'm a new guy on the block wasn't sure if i would be asked or wanted to be honest. :) ).

torbjon wrote:I still see two solutions to Our Problem: Peaceful Negotiations or Open Warfare.

I'm skilled at both. I prefer the former but will embrace the latter if need be.

If the latter is the consensus then I believe we need to go underground away from prying eyes and discuss tactics.

http://www.youtube.com/v/5RegzUvYZ7E


I dont see any other options either, other than the two you've stated.
Ive seen Bill/SO here on the forum over the past week and he hasn't answered any of the questions that have been posed so i imagine that negotiation isn't high on his list of priorities.
I think that narrows the options down to one imo.

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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby TheSkepticOverlord » Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:50 pm

torbjon wrote:Both you and Mark / Springer have stated that my banning took place over a year ago and that things have changed since then.

Yes, and we offered (more than once) to "make good" by reinstating your membership. But you seem to have a strong desire to revisit the issue over, and over, and over.


torbjon wrote:I've requested that ATS CONSIDER revising its policies...

And I've indicated, several times, that much has changed... including more "eyes" and discussion before account action is taken.



remus wrote:How does a conspiracy master get away with posting this crap.

Those who achieve "conspiracy master" status do so because of their history of creating content that inspires discussions... and/or are pre-existing persons of stature in their related fields (such as John Rodes or Norio Hayakawa). There are no editorial restrictions on what the are allowed to post.

However, we have internally lamented the choice of the term, "Conspiracy Master," on more than one occasion but cannot decide on something better (yet).



JayKew wrote:The fact that such topics contribute to the "hit rate" and consequently help to line the two amigos pockets is purely coincidental.

There are three "amigos," all with equal equity stature. And in only very rare circumstances does one thread have any significant influence on overall traffic.



remus wrote:If the staff are able to give multiple flags and stars to threads and posts doesn't that actually equate to "User and Staff driven content".

Staff are limited to one flag per thread and one star-vote per post... however, as has been explained on ATS, when a Moderator applies a star-vote, the author receives two stars, and star-votes from a Super-Mod or Admin applies three stars. However, stars are only an aesthetic indication of the subjective value of a post and have no bearing on thread placement or a user's status.

We did initially consider the possibility of a need for Admin (or someone) to have the ability to apply more than one flag for important threads, but so far have not encountered the need as members have been properly flagging-up important subjects.



Shawnna wrote:Maybe staff are *paid* by the number of stars and flags and whatever?

No.



torbjon wrote:we know that conspiracy masters get paid to post

No, we don't directly pay them. They have the opportunity to run their own Google AdSense ads on their threads. And since the AdSense ads deliver the majority of "thread revenue," they stand to make more money from the activity of their threads than we do.



You Can Call Me Ray wrote:The real question becomes what, precisely, was involved in "preparing" an image when...

In the case of the lunar images, it was simply related to preparing multiple sizes to accommodate the range of bandwidth available to members. No images were altered.



torbjon wrote:JLs pic did NOT get product branded / labeled even though it received More attention and distribution...

We offered to insert a watermark on John's behalf but he declined, saying it was unnecessary.



torbjon wrote:has anyone watched their little movie yet?
http://www.theabovenetwork.com/advertising.html

Forgot about that. Woefully outdated with old numbers, time to update.



MrPenny wrote:One of the single funniest posts I've ever read...
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thr ... pid4529351
The entire thread is a piece of doo-doo, but this single gem makes the entire travesty worth it.

Yeah... not such a great thread subject. However, the majority of responses are rightfully taking the author to task and calling bunk. Also, it has very few flags so never appeared on the home page and barely made it into the Skunk Works Summary (it made it in because of the replies).



Access Denied wrote:Oh and get this, only staff can see the profiles of banned members now… you know so folks can’t see who their friends were and find their posts easily? Isn’t that nice?

That was temporary and explained here.

torbjon wrote:Erasing Data is a GREAT way to deny ignorance in my book. mmph.

Nothing was erased.
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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby Chorlton » Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:23 pm

TheSkepticOverlord wrote:[

remus wrote:How does a conspiracy master get away with posting this crap.

Those who achieve "conspiracy master" status do so because of their history of creating content that inspires discussions...
.

Or in the case of one poster (Mikesingh), a history of posting pure and utter b.s., gets him Conspiracy master?

.
and/or are pre-existing persons of stature in their related fields (such as John Rodes or Norio Hayakawa). There are no editorial restrictions on what the are allowed to post..

Thats plainly obvious looking at some of the tripe posted
.
However, we have internally lamented the choice of the term, "Conspiracy Master," on more than one occasion but cannot decide on something better (yet)..


How about...........'b.s. master' ?.
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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby JayKew » Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:51 pm

S.O. wrote

"JayKew wrote:
The fact that such topics contribute to the "hit rate" and consequently help to line the two amigos pockets is purely coincidental."

"There are three "amigos," all with equal equity stature. And in only very rare circumstances does one thread have any significant influence on overall traffic. "




You keep saying that there are three of you but its a long time since Simon Gray appears to have posted anything.

Is there a reason for him being silenced ??

Likewise with Gazrok .....his contributions were remarkably good , he was the only person who attempted to post sensible threads and now kaput !! he has gone .... why is this ?

By the way .....

Why did you write this ???? .......

"And in only very rare circumstances does one thread have any significant influence on overall traffic."

Do we need to have such obvious things pointed out to us ???

Is that admission that it shouldnt be there at all ??

If so, why dont you just pull it.

Reoutations n stuff matter right ??

However ....

Its the number of "likewise" threads that you have which do have a significant influence on overall traffic.

It is not just that one thread that damages you, it is also the many others.

Now, as I previously asked, any chance that you can attend to the Clifford Stone debacle following the latest "goodbye" post from that Springer chappie.

Many thanks in advance.
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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby TheSkepticOverlord » Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:05 pm

JayKew wrote:Is there a reason for him being silenced ??

He's not being "silenced" at all... he's just busy with off-site issues and a rather intense job.


Likewise with Gazrok .....his contributions were remarkably good , he was the only person who attempted to post sensible threads and now kaput !! he has gone .... why is this ?

Gazrok is still very active.


Is that admission that it shouldnt be there at all ??
If so, why dont you just pull it.

I'm not sure I follow you... you want us to simply delete a thread some people don't like?

It is not just that one thread that damages you, it is also the many others.

If you could please, define "damage" in this context. I'm not clear on what the damage you refer to might be.


Now, as I previously asked, any chance that you can attend to the Clifford Stone debacle

Debacle? I'm not close to the issues that might be considered a "debacle" in relation to Mr. Stone, but I'll do my best to read the thread here and respond. Just a bit of a note that I have some pressing offline personal issues that may delay my response a couple days.
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Re: Touching On a Few ATS "Issues"

Postby torbjon » Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:44 pm

Hi Bill,

Thanks for stopping by.

Again I ask that you please separate Me, Torb the person, from the issue I'm trying to discuss with you. We've resolved the 'personal' issues and I'm not at all ticked. Again I thank you for the invite to return, it is appreciated. I tried a few times to make anonymous posts but they didn't make the grade. I don't think I currently fit in over there and that's fine. Not your fault. Not my fault. Just is what it is and that's cool.

I'm not talking about that Event. I'm talking about the machinery that is ATS.

You state above:

And I've indicated, several times, that much has changed... including more "eyes" and discussion before account action is taken.


But so far nobody has described what that actual change is.

This is how Mark described the current system to me elsewhere in this forum:

viewtopic.php?f=47&t=1331&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=105#p19199

Springer wrote:

@ Torbjon...

There is nothing that formal as a required minimum number for a quorum or anything like that... AGAIN, the post ban is NOT PERMANENT, it's easily removed if the member is honestly interested in participating in the community and NOT solely there for disruption, hoaxing or scamming...

The available staff that is online when the infraction occurs will discuss it and if there is a consensus (could be 35 or it could be 4 staffers) that the offending member isn't going to get with the program they post ban the member to stop the problem. It's then up to the member to read the u2u they get, go read the thread "If you've been post banned" and deal with it.

WRT diversity of the staff, how does every continent, and just about every religion (including Atheists), and both sexual "preferences" being included sound? Pretty diverse yes?

We have staffers that are die hard skeptics (we have a couple that make Chorlton look like a wide eyed True Believer!), a couple that just know we are being visited, people who don't trust the US Government, people who WORK for the USG (an Army guy actually, but still), a "higher up" in the State of New York Civil Service, artists, computer geeks, business owners, stay at home moms, corporate executives, college students, a professor, etc... but mostly we have people who are open minded, critical thinkers who love a good, CIVIL, discussion.

I promise you there is not a better, more diverse staff on the internet.

Springer...


That seems to be the exact same system which was in place when I was there.

Mark says that as few as FOUR people could be responsible for making the decision to devastate someones life. (not talking about 'bruised egos here, talking about very real Potential Loss of Financial Gain, see my post here:

viewtopic.php?f=47&t=1331&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=135#p19374

Again, I'm Not Talking About ME! I ate the poisoned Tylenol, the Pinto I was in crashed and burned... I'm DEAD and GONE and the human Torb is NOTHING but an emotionless Statistic.

I would like to think a rather valuable statistic.

A statistic which could be used to improve the Quality and Safety of your web site.

I feel that your web site is still unsafe. I am not asking you if it is unsafe, I'm telling you.

A VERY SMALL percentage of your users are Harmed by your product.

I'm faced with two choices: I can try to work with you to increase product safety, OR, I can try to raise public awareness to the potential hazards of being a member of your community...

Working With You is, in my opinion, far easier and 'better' as it goes straight to the source.

If that is something that you do not wish to consider, so be it.

Thank you again for stopping by. It's always a pleasure to chat with you.

twj
Expendable Guy. The show is no good without them.
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torbjon
Focused on Reality
Focused on Reality
 
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Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:08 am
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