ATS's Bill Irvine Complains to host about ATSWatch

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Re: ATS's Bill Irvine Complains to host about ATSWatch

Postby rilence » Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:17 pm

Yep Chorlton, a ladder might be handy...

And while we're at it, will someone hand septic toiletoverflow a goddamned clue ?

What a pathetically weak way to censor something you don't agree with...Typical ATS tho..."Yous vill do and thinks vat ve vant, or ve vill censor yous"

ATS and its owners have done more to promote ignorance and advance their own financial interests by exploiting their users to provide unpaid content than any other conspiracy site I've ever seen...

I agree with several other posts on here lately...Milking your members for free content and not giving them anything in return whilst adding nothing of value to the site yourselves and making a buck is just plain morally not right...

Truly pathetic...

But I'd expect nothing less of ATS...ANY conspiracy site that puts the owners pockets ahead of its members and claims to TRULY deny ignorance with regard to the topics covered is just plain full of crap...

OH !!!

Coincidently this sounds a lot like ATS...Hmmmmmm
www.atswatch.com

Keep the bastards honest !!!
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Re: ATS's Bill Irvine Complains to host about ATSWatch

Postby Shawnna » Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:33 pm

The latest from Bill



Admin Edit
Email and personal info removed as per ATS request

Essentially, Bill stated they had only just become aware of the website (atswatch.com) and to comply with his original request. -Steve



I did not respond to the above email. Immediately following the appearance of the above email, this one came in (and I won't be responding to it via email either)



Admin Edit
Email and personal info removed as per ATS request

Shawnna was told by Bill that she did not have permission to post Bill's email. -Steve



Let me guess what their next move will be.

hmmmmm....... thinking....... thinking........

oooooo......... I've got it.......... query their membership ranks

"is there a LAWYER in the house?" type of poll comes to mind..........

give them 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 points and play to their over-inflated ego and ask them to write a letter demanding the site be removed.

Let's see..... didn't they have a lawyer like this once before????

*scratching head*

Ahhh yes......... appears he's gone on to bigger and better things.
Last edited by Zep Tepi on Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Personal information and original email contents removed per request. Context provided in absence of supporting email.
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Re: ATS's Bill Irvine Complains to host about ATSWatch

Postby Shawnna » Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:38 pm

I've never been one to back down from doing what is right and I don't intend to start now.

:MOON:
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Re: ATS's Bill Irvine Complains to host about ATSWatch

Postby rilence » Sat Jul 19, 2008 4:40 pm

hahahahahahahaha

That thingo about their "lawyer" was too funny Shawnna :) Thanks for the laugh @ 1.30 am ;)

They're playing hardball and trying the argy bargy on now because they are bluffing, IMHO...If they were serious, they lawyers would have been on to this from day one a la microcrap or some other corporate scumbag...

They haven't, which makes me think they're full of s^~t, as an outfit...I mean, septicdunny is, so why shouldn't the other corporate clowns at ATS be ?

I'm no lawyer and I'm not offering you advice in any way shape or form Shawwna, but if this were me they were threatening, I'd tell them to bite my shiny metal ass, and I'd sit back and have another couple daiquiris and enjoy my saturday :)

In any event, I'm sure I speak for many people here when I say I got yr back Shawwna, in any way I can..

Hang tough ;)
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Re: ATS's Bill Irvine Complains to host about ATSWatch

Postby Access Denied » Sat Jul 19, 2008 5:04 pm

You've handled this well Shawnna. =D>

This is just more evidence of Mark and Bill’s disingenuous (and unethical) behavior. As a matter of fact, Mark knew about the ATSWatch site over a year ago and who was behind it…

Springer wrote:on Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:13 am

Here's what I think about "ATS Watch.com"...

Thanks for the FREE PUBLICITY! :D

I am a firm believer in the old adage "there is no bad press as long as they spell my name right"! :lol:

I have to wonder why these 4 loons (that's the total number) have nothing better to do than spend hours creating a website <25 people will ever see? Amazing...

I wonder what’s changed since then?

Bill closed the thread about ATSWatch on ATS that Torbjon linked to but here is a post in the “ATS Issues” thread from someone who appears to get it…

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thr ... pid4651578

Quazga wrote:ATS WATCH -MY OPINION

So, I saw the thread recently titled "Whats up with ATSWatch?"

Personally, I belive skeptic overlord should not have closed that thread, as there was much more to speak of there, and the ATSWatch discussion could very well get diluted on this one thread.

Also, Even though I want to talk about the ATSWatch site, I have no issue with ATS, so I'm not sure why it should be moved here.

But whatever, ... here is my opinion

The guys at ATSWatchs have two issues

1. They believe that ATS's policy is to enforce ignorance
2. They feel that the ATS owners are somehow "questionable"

I can't speak to #2 at all. I have no idea what they mean, and I have no knowledge of anything which I might assume they are speaking of.

[Edit here after looking more closely at ATS Watch]. It appears one of the issues is that folks like John Lear, Who I personally think has no business on any site which would seek to maintain any credibility, is a nutcase, yet other hoaxers get booted. I'd have to say that I understand where Springer is coming from; namely that although Lear is clearly a nutjob, he's not a pre-meditated hoaxer.

That aside I personally think Lear has no place on a forum such as ATS, unless... And this is the crux of the ATSWatch principles, the Owners of ATS (OATS) only reason to keep him around is due to his attraction of users; crazy, unbelievable, hit-increasing, eye-ball having, ad impression generating users.

What I REALLY want to talk about though is this concept of what ATS is.

ATS is exactly what the "About ATS" page says, which they ATSWatch site links to. It is not a definitive source of truth, but a place where people can go to get a feeling of what people THINK truth might be.

Now before someone says "Well, everyone "thinks" what they know is truth", let me say this. ATS's expressed purpose is not to come to any conclusions, but let the readers come to conclusions. Although... to be honest, ATS promotes a lot of nutjobs who have zero credibility, such as John Lear.

Evidently, the folks at ATSWatch wanted a system whereby they wouldn't hash over the same misinformation over and over again. They want a memory. They want that memory to be conclusive, and then they want to move onto the next thread.

This intention of theirs is very admirable, and I support *that* kind of forum if it is agreeable to me, if not, then I might support another forum which has a different concept of what the TRUTH might be.

ATS Watch says this

But what if you are only seeking the TRUTH?

And what if, in seeking that TRUTH you stumble across something that seems to discredit ATS? Are you now 'ignorant'?


They go on, but I have to stop them right here.

How could you ever discredit ATS? I mean, for that to happen, ATS would have to have the ability of comming to some conclusion on a topic and then registering that conclusion in a "archive of facts" some place.

But that is not what ATS does at all. It NEVER comes to a conclusion. ITS NOT SUPPOSED TO!

The whole point of ATS, which is descirbed in the About ATS link, is a conspiracy marketplace of sorts. The concept is that the truth will "probably" be someplace in between the extremes of any topic. And ATS is like a giant honeypot meant to attract the extremes so that the middle ground can be divined by the initiated.

And before someone says "Hey! Mr Elitist... who are these initiates?"

They are the people who have learned to read between the lines of ATS, nothing more.

So with that, I think the difference between ATS and ATSWatch can be summed up as follows:

ATS == A forum which attracts both crack pots and anti-crack pots. The result is the ability to see a range of opinions on any topic and hopefully come away more informed than you arrived.

ATSWatch == A group of people who believe that once something has been debunked, it should be remembered as such. Also that doesn't support the promotion of nutjobs such as John Lear.

Quazga asks an excellent question “How could you ever discredit ATS?"

The answer is we can’t, but the actions of the ATS management can… and so can the members of ATS by not holding them accountable for it.

Unfortunately the management of ATS has a number of techniques they use (e.g. post deletion, intimidation, character assassination, and banning) to suppress and silence the free expression of those kind of concerns on ATS so the ATS Watch forum here at RU is provided as a public service for those who have no other alternative.


Edit to add EXAMPLE: http://www.torbtown.com/abovetopsecret.html
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Re: ATS's Bill Irvine Complains to host about ATSWatch

Postby Shawnna » Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:42 pm

The attempt to control and intimidate continues.

And for obvious reasons, the last email received from Bill and the gang made it clear they do not want it posted or shared as it included this at the top

The following is a private communication intended only for you and the recipients copied.


And this at the bottom

You may not share this communication without prior permission.

{snip to remove personal contact information}

This email, its contents, and its distribution list is private communications intended solely for the consumption of the specified recipients. The sharing of the content of this message, any attachments, or the parties indicated in the distribution list is strictly forbidden without the prior permission of the author.


So I won't copy/paste it here.

What Bill wants me to do is make some changes to ATSWatch as he claims they are not interested in limiting free expression.

:roll:

The changes he's asked for include removing "meta tags" (I'm not sure what those are?).

He has also asked that I replace the current front page with language that seems to give 'ownership' of the acronym "ATS" to AboveTopSecret.com when in fact, from what I can tell there is no copyright or trademark that gives them that right.

A friend recently pointed out that "ATS" may also be a common abbreviation used by the American Thoracic Society, or perhaps the Association of Theological Schools.

*shrugs*

Continuing on with Bill's request, he asked that I change the front page to say that

"ATSWatch" is an independent group of a few individuals who are have become concerned about the growth in popularity of ATS as a source of user-generated opinions on "alternative topics" and mainstream news and we are of the opinion that the operators may be behaving in a way not compatible with the public trust they seek.


*pfft*

Obviously Bill hasn't been paying attention to what I have consistently maintained. For the record, I will state this again as clearly and succinctly as possible.

I could care less about your self-proclaimed growth. What I take exception to is the deceitful and manipulative attempt at portraying your intentions one way -. "deny ignorance" - while at the same time promoting b.s. that does NOTHING but fuel the ignorant beliefs of the gullible.

That is the primary driver behind ATSWatch. Your b.s. ethics of attempting to silence and/or arbitrarily ban those you feel won't drive enough traffic is just another reason to maintain my commitment to not be bullied by you.

:yda:

Bill then asked for the complete removal of the "aboutatswatch.html" page and any link to it with the suggestion that I could link to the "about" page at abovetopsecret.com. He also reminded me that I do not have permission to replicate any of his content.

He went on to request that I remove his domain name and use the common abbreviation for any number of entities as noted above - "ATS" - instead of "aboutatswatch.html" page

:shakeshead:

He also included a paragraph stating that any unwillingness on my part would be considered malicious cause to harm through promoting information that is not based on fact. And of course a veiled threat that the measure of his response will take that in mind.

:puke:

Wait a sec...... this would appear to mean that Bill is stating that promoting information not based in fact could harm someone.

:shock:

And this was my response


From: shawnna@xxxxx

To: Bill IXXXXXX <bill@xxxxxxxxxx
CC: "Mark xxxxxxx" <mark@xxxxxxxx>, "xxxxxxxxxxxx" <xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxxxx>, xxxxx <xxxxx@xxxxxxxxxx>, "[xxxxx] Simon xxxxxx" <simon@xxxxxxxxxxx>, xxxx xx <x @xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [#KMB-786936]: Complaint from AboveTopSecret.com
Date: Saturday, July 19, 2008 10:33:54 AM

Bill,

First of all, unless I expressly agree to keep your emails to me confidential, I have consistently demonstrated that ANY emails sent to me may very well end up in the public domain.

That said, I will take your suggestions for changes under consideration.

Shawnna


For the record, ATSWatch will remain as is.

:bigkiss:
Last edited by Access Denied on Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:27 am, edited 7 times in total.
Reason: Edited out personal information
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Re: ATS's Bill Irvine Complains to host about ATSWatch

Postby Access Denied » Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:06 pm

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Re: ATS's Bill Irvine Complains to host about ATSWatch

Postby ryguy » Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:41 pm

Shawnna,

I suggest you ask him to stop harassing you. If he doesn't, then advise him to stop spamming you or you will have to report him to his ISP.

-Ry
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Re: ATS's Bill Irvine Complains to host about ATSWatch

Postby Chorlton » Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:36 pm

I dont know if anyones seen this , its a discussion about what been going on

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread353530/pg1

The last post on that thread, by Septic Overwight in replyto Quazga's excellent post states:


SkepticOverlord wrote:
Quazga wrote:The guys at ATSWatchs have two issues

Just to follow up on your excellent post...

We've made contact with the owner of the site and have officially requested a slight modification of the terminology they're using. As it stands, they're apparently attempting to establish "unethical behavior" as a statement of fact, not opinion.

We have no desire to make an effort to limit anyone's ability to freely express themselves, however, if they want to make definitive statements about us, I'd prefer to see factual evidence. I have no problem with people expressing opinion, and clearly qualifying it as such, and we have a long history of not just tolerance, but supporting that here on ATS.

If someone believes that agents of our site and/or company have acted in an unethical way, there are several methods that may provide satisfactory results other than grousing about it on online forums.
1) Your state's attorney general (we are an LLC with a strict privacy policy)
2) The Internet Advertising Bureau (we are a member and must adhere to an ethical code)
3) TRUSTe... we are under review for certification
4) The U.S. SEC -- if you believe we're not factual about our corporate structure

So far, to my knowledge, no one has taken any initiate other than complain via postings on other online forums.
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Re: ATS's Bill Irvine Complains to host about ATSWatch

Postby HomingPigeon » Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:22 pm

Here is something new in the works. From the US patent and trademark website.

Word Mark ABOVETOPSECRET
Goods and Services IC 041. US 100 101 107. G & S: Entertainment services, namely, a continuing program about UFO sightings, extraterrestrials, conspiracies, secret societies, conspiracy theories, paranormal incidents, accessible by radio, television, satellite, audio, video and computer networks
Standard Characters Claimed
Mark Drawing Code (4) STANDARD CHARACTER MARK
Serial Number 77507085
Filing Date June 24, 2008
Current Filing Basis 1B
Original Filing Basis 1B
Owner (APPLICANT) The Above Network, LLC CORPORATION DELAWARE Suite 2000 450 Seventh Avenue New York NEW YORK 10123
Attorney of Record Daniel Zohny
Type of Mark SERVICE MARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE
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Re: ATS's Bill Irvine Complains to host about ATSWatch

Postby Shawnna » Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:39 am

I have asked one of the owners/admins of this site to edit my posts in a way they are comfortable with.

And the big gorrilla goes off with his hard on intact.

:roll:

ATSWatch.com remains as is.
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Re: ATS's Bill Irvine Complains to host about ATSWatch

Postby Zep Tepi » Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:32 am

The changes have been made but hopefully the context remains intact.

It seems the "big sticks" are being waved around. Reminds me of the tactics employed by certain other organisations in order to suppress free speech and to prevent certain information reaching the public domain.

The actions of an organisation with nothing to hide, or of an organisation intent on censorship and suppression? Who knows, but tonights events have left me with a bad taste in my mouth.

Cheers,
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Re: ATS's Bill Irvine Complains to host about ATSWatch

Postby ryguy » Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:41 am

Tonights events gave me an AWESOME idea for an article...
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Re: ATS's Bill Irvine Complains to host about ATSWatch

Postby Access Denied » Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:47 am

Forgive me if I’m overstating the obvious but…

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thr ... pid4655912

SkepticOverlord wrote:As it stands, they're apparently attempting to establish "unethical behavior" as a statement of fact, not opinion.

That statement right there could be considered unethical behavior when the statement on the ATSWatch site that Bill failed to cite on his web site clearly states “there is evidence which suggests”… that is not a statement of fact, it is in fact a statement of opinion.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/unethical

unethical

adjective
not conforming to approved standards of social or professional behavior; "unethical business practices" [ant: ethical]

WordNet® 3.0, © 2006 by Princeton University

Telling Shawnna she can’t talk about this to anyone is also unethical in my opinion, especially when Bill just did on his own web site.
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Re: ATS's Bill Irvine Complains to host about ATSWatch

Postby Shawnna » Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:10 am

Access Denied wrote:Telling Shawnna she can’t talk about this to anyone is also unethical in my opinion, especially when Bill just did on his own web site.


:stktngout:

Telling 'Shawnna' anything with the expectation of changing her behavior is usually an effort in futility. Just ask Ry or Steve.

:wink:
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