Alleged O'Hare UFO Photo Reveals Possible ATS Hoax

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Re: Alleged O'Hare UFO Photo Reveals Possible ATS Hoax

Postby Access Denied » Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:51 am

ryguy wrote:It's kind of funny...the Tribune fired the one writer who wrote the most popular article of their newspaper.

You’re thinking of the Stephenville (Texas) reporter… she’s now doing the UFO "lecture" circuit so I think that worked out for her. ;)
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Re: Alleged O'Hare UFO Photo Reveals Possible ATS Hoax

Postby ryguy » Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:03 am

Access Denied wrote:
ryguy wrote:It's kind of funny...the Tribune fired the one writer who wrote the most popular article of their newspaper.

You’re thinking of the Stephenville (Texas) reporter… she’s now doing the UFO "lecture" circuit so I think that worked out for her. ;)


Ahh yes that's right! Much more lucrative...the last conference she was speaking side by side with the likes of long-time Ufologist Bruce Maccabee!

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Re: Alleged O'Hare UFO Photo Reveals Possible ATS Hoax

Postby Access Denied » Tue Aug 05, 2008 7:22 am

ryguy wrote:Much more lucrative...the last conference she was speaking side by side with the likes of long-time Ufologist Bruce Maccabee!

Sung to the tune of...

[but I digress]
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Re: Alleged O'Hare UFO Photo Reveals Possible ATS Hoax

Postby lost_shaman » Tue Aug 05, 2008 9:11 am

torbjon wrote:During the course of that discussion on ATS S.O. had this to say about The Picture:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/single/2932148.html
So if this image is faked (I think it is), it's perhaps the most unusual fake we've ever seen... which leads to an interesting question... why?


why indeed...

WHO benefited the Most from that picture? Was it GLP? MSN? CNN? ABC? CBS? HBO? Or was it some other three letter group we can't link to from here anymore?


torbjon,

Let me take a 'wack' at the 'why' question...

The simple answer might just be that some people thought it would be a fun thing to do. For instance, after the photo in question was posted on 1-23-07 another 'O'Hare' UFO hoax picture was posted on 1-24-07 (C2C pic) and then another 'anonymous' Hoax picture on 1-25-07. All three of those were posted on ATS and C2C, and all within three days.

However, that isn't all... I already knew of 4 Hoaxed 'O'Hare' UFO pictures before the first (1-23-07) ATS photo was posted.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/chuckcirino/351112882/ (Three pics on this site, up-loaded Jan. 8th, 2007)

http://youtubevideo.pbwiki.com/O'hare%2 ... 20released

While these 4 photos were basically disclosed as 'fakes' by the people posting them 3 come complete w/ bogus 'provenience' statements. Here is two of them quoted below (1-08-07).

"In the Fall of 2006 a UFO was spotted over O'Hare Airport. I managed to squeeze off this shot out the window of my plane."

"After buzzing O'Hare Airport this UFO disappeared into the clouds. I bribed our pilot to follow it and after a harrowing adventure it reappeared over Chicago. If I had hit the shutter button a split-second earlier this shot would have been better framed."


At anyrate this brings us to a grand total of at least 7 Hoaxed 'O'Hare' UFO pictures by 1-25-07 representing 3-4 independent individuals. All 7 have original 'O'Hare' photos found on-line as the basis for the 'Hoax' pictures. And that wasn't all I've seen at least two others. (Below is a link to one of them with the link to the original image.)

http://www.geocities.com/jimsjournal/pix/ohare.jpg
http://images.google.com/images?q=OHare ... t=240&sa=N

So, IMO, we have likely between 4-7 individuals 'hoaxing' photos of the 'O'Hare' UFO and all using the same theme. Yet, appearantly only two or possibly one of these individuals posted their 'hoax' photos on ATS anonymously (1-23-07/ 1-25-07). The first of which by date, being disclosed as "fantasy" w/ fallacious caption included, was posted on 1-08-07.

Why? (You ask.)

It seems to me that at least some people thought this would be a fun thing to do. At least some of them also made-up stories for their 'fakes' but were also honest enough to label their 'creations' as 'fakes' and were not associated with ATS as far as I can tell.
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Re: Alleged O'Hare UFO Photo Reveals Possible ATS Hoax

Postby skylar » Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:45 pm

Hello -- I'm a long time lurker and this is my first post here. I'm a former ATS member who has since been banned for calling out one of ATS' sockpuppets which I guess annoyed Springer hence why I can no longer log in there... but anywaaaaaaaaaay, was posting on a daily basis when the O'Hare thread was active and as I recall, JRitzman was actually pointing out things in that photo, that was later deemed legitimate, that to him looked suspicious where at the time when he posted those comments about it, I was certain that it was going to be branded a hoax because, as I recall, JRitzman had already called it that! But then Springer posted a comment saying something to the effect that that photo might in fact be legit whereby JRitizman did a complete turn-around on his "opinion" on that photo whereby analyzing it from the perspective that it was a legitimate photo of the incident and that it was the real McCoy. Springer, of course, supported him all the way in his positive analysis of it. From that point on, it became clear to me that JRiztman was going to go along with whatever Springer's viewpoints on things were hence why Riztman made an abrupt change of opinion about the legitimacy of that photo and I vividly recall how outraged I was at that time that that happened. Since then, I never trusted anything that JRitzman said on any photo's that he analyzed in that forum because it became clear as day to me that he was going to go with whatever the Amigo's wanted in terms of what they wanted to brand real as opposed to hoax.

At any rate, later, when I went back to review over the posts in that thread, I was not surprised to find Ritzman's initial comments on that photo where he was basically saying that it was just another hoax were no longer there in that thread but by that time, S.O had deleted a number of "space wasting" posts in that thread to clean it up some... Well, apparently, those first comments made by JRitzman about that photo were also deleted too during that "clean up"... including that post by Springer where he was saying that it could be real -- it directly followed Ritzman's initial opinions about that particular photo.. well that post was gone too.


[Mod Edit: removed quote of entire previous post]
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Re: Alleged O'Hare UFO Photo Reveals Possible ATS Hoax

Postby ryguy » Thu Aug 07, 2008 8:51 pm

Gives whole new meaning to the phrase "clean up the thread" doesn't it? lol

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Re: Alleged O'Hare UFO Photo Reveals Possible ATS Hoax

Postby skylar » Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:38 pm

ryguy wrote:Gives whole new meaning to the phrase "clean up the thread" doesn't it? lol

-Ry


Yep, It sure does! lol
A very convenient "clean up" I should say and an efficient one too! I guess they didn't want to keep anything in that thread that questioned the authenticity of that particular photo especially after Springer decided that that's what it was. Those negative initial comments made about it by Ritzman was something they didn't want anyone of import to see so they simply deleted those posts! Simple as that!

But it really amazed me how Ritzman automatically went from hoax to real at the drop of a dime immediately after Springer made the decision to accept that photo as one that was actually taken during that event at O'Hare.

Nevertheless, knowing what I now know about the administrator's at ATS, I'm not putting it past them that they could very well have promoted a photo as authentic when they know very well that there's no way to prove that -- and I find this appalling!
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Re: Alleged O'Hare UFO Photo Reveals Possible ATS Hoax

Postby torbjon » Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:30 pm

lost_shaman:

Not blowing you off comrade, just didn't see anything really worthy of you... which was a little disappointing.

YES people could have lost interest on their own.. Despite the still unsolved nature of this event general interest seems to completely Die right here:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/single/2932148.html

Posted by SkepticOverlord, on February 6, 2007 at 11:08 GMT
Well... after I had some time to devote to this subject, I'm of the opinion that the picture from "000000" is a fabrication.


Springer, Skeptic Overlord, and Jritzmann STOP being primary contributors to the thread, the thread dies out *shrugs* I'm just looking at the numbers dude...

As far as the other images go... C'mon man. I understand the desire to defend ATS at all costs, but really, calling a known and incredibly Up Front ARTIST a "Hoaxer" is really reaching for straws, don'tcha think?

This is Chucks web site:

http://www.ufoart.net/

Check out his gallery of 'intentionally fabricated images, intended to pull the wool over your eyes, fool the world, and make the UFO community look bad'! (and for just a couple of bucks You Too can own one of his prints)

Chuck Cirino is an honest and open businessman. Calling him a "Hoaxer" has about as much validity as me calling you an idiot, neither is true and we both know it *pokes* So why the straw man tactics? Are you really at the end of your rope?

The other images you mention are moot. They were Not posted solely to ATS nor were they Instantly product branded by ATS and used by ATS for promotional purposes... only One picture fits that bill, the one sponsored by Skeptic Overlord, Springer, and Jritzmann.
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Re: Alleged O'Hare UFO Photo Reveals Possible ATS Hoax

Postby torbjon » Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:31 pm

skylar:

I'm finding your story to be quite interesting, however I'm having a hard time 'finding' it... could you point me to the page / pages where you believe data has been deleted? I've been looking over the thread for breaks in continuity and I'm not sure I'm seeing what you are referring to... help me out here.

While examining continuity I did find some other... interesting... things. However I want to examine that some more before chatting about it... your input could prove helpful.

Thanks!
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Re: Alleged O'Hare UFO Photo Reveals Possible ATS Hoax

Postby lost_shaman » Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:12 am

torbjon wrote:
Not blowing you off comrade, just didn't see anything really worthy of you... which was a little disappointing.

YES people could have lost interest on their own.. Despite the still unsolved nature of this event general interest seems to completely Die right here:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/single/2932148.html

Posted by SkepticOverlord, on February 6, 2007 at 11:08 GMT
Well... after I had some time to devote to this subject, I'm of the opinion that the picture from "000000" is a fabrication.


O.k., but my opinion at the time was that this photo was simply one of many 'fabricated' photos, and that Springer's endorsement and ATS 'branding' was simply the result of Springer not having much experience at looking at supposed UFO photos.


torbjon wrote:Springer, Skeptic Overlord, and Jritzmann STOP being primary contributors to the thread, the thread dies out *shrugs* I'm just looking at the numbers dude...

As far as the other images go... C'mon man. I understand the desire to defend ATS at all costs, but really, calling a known and incredibly Up Front ARTIST a "Hoaxer" is really reaching for straws, don'tcha think?

This is Chucks web site:

http://www.ufoart.net/

Check out his gallery of 'intentionally fabricated images, intended to pull the wool over your eyes, fool the world, and make the UFO community look bad'! (and for just a couple of bucks You Too can own one of his prints)

Chuck Cirino is an honest and open businessman. Calling him a "Hoaxer" has about as much validity as me calling you an idiot, neither is true and we both know it *pokes* So why the straw man tactics? Are you really at the end of your rope?


First, I don't spend my time defending anybody. I spend way too much of my own free time defending myself because most people don't like or understand what I have to say.

Also, I may have grouped all the photo's under the casual label of "Hoax photos" as a group, but I clearly acknowledged that the first two sets of photos I had come across were the only two in which the 'creators' acknowledged openly that the images were 'fabricated'.

"these 4 photos were basically disclosed as 'fakes' by the people posting them" - 8/05/08

That includes "Chuck's" Jan. 8Th photo's, and if the guy is as popular with his "UFOart" website as you are saying he is then clearly he must have influenced people who think "UFO Art" is cool as early as Jan. 8th with his "O'Hare Pics" that all the other photos seem to follow by incorporating actual "O'Hare" photos found online.

Lets be honest, if I found that photo before Jan. 23rd simply by looking for pictures from 'O'Hare' then just think how many people that think "UFO Art" is cool must have seen these images as early as Jan. 8th! Hundreds, if not thousands of people some of which possibly willing to try and fabricate their own 'O'Hare' pics'?

I'm sorry you have the impression that I'm somehow defending ATS here, the truth is that I was looking at 'photos' from O'Hare as early as the first week of January. I got tired of hearing so many people saying the 'event' was a Hoax simply because there were not 'dozens' of photos of the object! So as early as Jan. 9th I challenged everyone on UM to either shut up or help me look for pictures of Chicago showing the weather on Nov. 7th, 2006. Needless to say no-one helped out!

Looking for and finding pictures openly on ATS, after the 1/23/07 photo, became all the 'rage', but again, I had been doing that myself for weeks by that time. That's why I tend to have a different opinion.

I also know alot of things that happened behind the scenes, like the fact that NARCAP decided to add a chapter about "Hoax" photos to the "O'Hare" report by late Jan., early February. I had shown that several 'fake' "O'Hare" UFO photos existed before the "0000000" photo surfaced. IMO, it was nothing but a better fake than the 'fakes' that had preceded it.

I'm also referenced in the NARCAP report. I doubt anyone posting here can say the same. :wink:

torbjon wrote:The other images you mention are moot. They were Not posted solely to ATS nor were they Instantly product branded by ATS and used by ATS for promotional purposes... only One picture fits that bill, the one sponsored by Skeptic Overlord, Springer, and Jritzmann.


You are correct that the 'Branding' only happened once, but another photo apparently showing the same UO two days later didn't get "Branded"! So what does that mean?
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Re: Alleged O'Hare UFO Photo Reveals Possible ATS Hoax

Postby torbjon » Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:24 pm

lost_shaman:

Sweetness. This is why I like chatting with you.

Okay comrade, the 'problem' that I am having with this conversation is that we keep drifting into discussion about the actual Real Life Event itself (something in the skies over the airport) and drifting away from a completely different and UNRELATED event (how a story unfolded on ATS) which is what I wish to discuss here.

The two are completely different and unrelated animals and have absolutely Nothing to do with each other. The story on ATS could just as easily have been "how to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich" or "underwater basket weaving for ninnies" or some such, yes? Discussing 'smooth' versus 'chunky' or 'fresh water' versus 'chlorinated water' has no bearing on the topic, right?

Like you I believe that something Real happened in the Real World over the airport that day. Like you I am Still researching that Real Life event, still looking for photographic evidence, still looking for eye witnesses, still looking for paper trails...

But this isn't the thread to discuss our opinions, beliefs, or findings about the Real Life event. We really need to do that in the O'Hare thread which is dedicated to that type of discussion.

When we drift into debate about the Reality of the event we cloud the focus of my OP article and I perceive that as a 'derailment' which I will not stand for.

You know me comrade, I'll chat pretty much Anything with you for hours on end. We can drift from topic to topic and have a good ol' time of it, too... but not in this thread.

I'm sorry you've latched onto the 'why' question... If you take a closer peek you may notice that the 'why' question Was Not Mine, it was a quote from Skeptic Overlord. I 'snorted' "why indeed", perhaps a mistake on my part in which case I apologize for the confusion.

MY question (still unanswered by anyone) was "WHO benefited the most from that picture?"

Okay, looking at your post here, Springer is not the one who claims to have product branded the image in question, Skeptic Overlord has taken responsibility for that one. He stated it in the O'Hare thread on ATS (you're the guy that dug up the post for that one for me, page 33, remember?) He stated it in private FS forum, and he also stated it here. Bill / S.O. has had some Small experience with 'fuzzy pictures' during his tenure on ATS and I do believe he's done some work in the 'private sector' (MUFON) back in the day... (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/single/1052310.html)

So the person who made the decision to product brand that image did indeed have at least SOME experience with the subject matter. This was his reasoning behind doing that back then:

Skeptic Overlord wrote:
I labeled images that were sent directly to ATS that I deemed headed toward massive online attention... and they were, and now the source is preserved


"Ignorance" doesn't seem to be the answer. Obtaining "massive online attention" seems to be the answer... at least, that's what came out of the horses mouth *shrugs*

But other images are Not branded...

lost_shaman wrote:
You are correct that the 'Branding' only happened once, but another photo apparently showing the same UO two days later didn't get "Branded"! So what does that mean?


THAT, is a Very Good Question comrade, Very Good Question indeed, and one I've been asking since the get go...

Why did that ONE get branded and not others?

Forget the actual content of the image for a moment. There are hundreds if not thousands of 'fuzzy pictures' on ATS... fuzzy picture A, not branded, fuzzy picture B, not branded, fuzzy picture...

...not branded, fuzzy picture Zed Zed 9 Plural Zed Alpha? oh, This One we brand, fuzzy picture Zed Zed 9 Plural Zed Beta, not branded, fuzzy picture Zed Zed 9... not branded, not branded, not branded... etc. etc. etc.

Kinda makes That One stand out like a sore thumb, huh?

I'm not sure I'm familiar with the other image that you mention but there was a series of Three images taken in I believe Aurora IL in the summer prior to the O'Hare event that were sent to ATS during the O'Hare story that Jeff Ritzmann analyzed and rather quickly came to the conclusion that they represented a bona fide UAP (ie those images were NOT hoaxed) and he stuck by his guns on that one...

Those images were NOT product branded then (or now, I believe)... Here's a series of images that the resident expert states quite clearly are REAL... you would think that would make them Prime Candidates for product branding, yes?

But no... no "massive online attention" for those pics...

I have a theory as to why that One was branded while others are not that 'fits' but leads to the conclusion of 'intentional fabrication on the part of ATS' so I doubt it will be too popular... it goes something like this:

Suppose you, lost_shaman, are walking down the street with your digital camera, your lap top computer, and the little cable that connects the two together. An honest to gods UFO flies by and you, being On It, snap The Picture of all pictures. Sharp, clear, steady, hi res, verifiable landmarks in the background, Everything a nutty crunchy UFO freek could ask for. There's a park nearby. You sit down at a picnic table and set up your laptop and download the image from your camera. You email the image to yourself. Now the reality hits you and you are a little shook up, there's some adrenaline, there's the racing mind, you do something that you would NEVER do if you were 'in your right mind', you get up and walk two steps to a fountain to get a drink of water and wash your face...

And in that split second that your back is turned some punk on roller blades zips by and swipes your laptop!

Devastation of devastations.

BUT, you still have the original in your camera AND the copy you emailed to yourself.

You go home, bum about the loss of the hardware but giddy with knowledge that you still have The Image.

You get home and plug your camera into your desktop computer and download the image into it. You check your email and there's the copy you sent yourself... all is cool... But the family is there and you are giddy so you tell your story to them and now They are giddy too and everyone is chatting and laughing and having a good ol' time... Then it is late, the kids have to go to bed, other family stuff has to be dealt with, they day melts into night and everyone goes to bed.

The next morning you get up, fire up the desktop computer, check some of the news services and other favorite web sites, and there, staring you in the face is YOUR image, product branded with someone else's logo, surrounded by revenue generating google ads...

YOU didn't do that. Obviously the punk who ripped you off (or who ever they sold your laptop to) did it.

Now then, the site that product branded YOUR image with THEIR logo and is currently making money off it could get into a LOT of trouble for marketing Stolen Merchandise like that. YOU have the original in your camera AND the time stamped email that 'proves' in a court of law that YOU are the 'real' owner of that image. You take them to court, sue the pants off them, and win.

They go bye bye and you do whatever it is you want with your image....

Now I know that's kind of a whack story but it's not That whack... slapping your name on stolen merchandise and trying to make a buck off it ain't smart and ATS ain't dumb. They tend not to product brand Anything, even if they should obtain permission from the alleged 'owner', probably for the reasons outlined above: It might come back and bite them.

But not That One. That One they (Bill Irvine / Skeptic Overlord) wasted No Time in branding and distributing... images before and after? No, no branding... but That One? Oh ya, we're running with this one...

Now then, the only reason I can think of to completely disregard both previous and post practices regarding the product branding of content on ATS like this would be if the originator of the image in question was NOT an 'unknown' 'anonymous' or 'uncontrollable' factor.

IF the image was generated by a known and controllable factor then all risks of third party intervention have been eliminated. Jeff and David did NOT have to 'be in on it' as it were. All they had to do was assist in prolonging the investigation. Just 'take it slow' was all they had to do, so no 'inside' knowledge, no 'conspiracy' on their part,

That leaves three Amigos.

And not all three of them needed to be involved. In fact, only ONE would be needed, in which case it's now an issue of a 'lone gunman' and there is No Conspiracy whatsoever.

stuff to ponder.
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Re: Alleged O'Hare UFO Photo Reveals Possible ATS Hoax

Postby Zep Tepi » Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:33 pm

Stuff to ponder indeed, Torbjon.

What a fantastic post and what a fantastic way to point out the bleedin' obvious. Bravo!

I wonder if it will start to sink in now?

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Re: Alleged O'Hare UFO Photo Reveals Possible ATS Hoax

Postby skylar » Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:43 pm

torbjon wrote:skylar:

I'm finding your story to be quite interesting, however I'm having a hard time 'finding' it... could you point me to the page / pages where you believe data has been deleted? I've been looking over the thread for breaks in continuity and I'm not sure I'm seeing what you are referring to... help me out here.

While examining continuity I did find some other... interesting... things. However I want to examine that some more before chatting about it... your input could prove helpful.

Thanks!
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Torbjon,
I'll just take your word for it that you are not seeing anything in that thread indicating that any threads were deleted in that section when that photo was first presented on that board. I too could not see anything there either when I went back to look over that post or 2 where JRitzman was initially debunking that photo. Could be that maybe they went back a little later to change the text of those posts instead? But whatever the case may be, those comments posted by them about that photo at that time were, as far as I could see at that time when I went back to check on that, no longer there.

I'm just going by memory but, like I said, when JRitzman did that opinion switcheroo from "probably a hoax" to "Hey, this one might really be real!" at Springer's signal about that particular photo -- well, right off that bat, that left a big impression on me about the integrity of that board because of the "obviousness" of what Ritzman just did; I was surprised that others in that thread did not "call" Ritzman on that at that time but while it was all happening, I kept saying to myself "Am I the only one who's seeing this?"

To me it seemed like something really fishy was going on there and I was not ruling out that maybe they were just having fun pretending that that photo was possibly the authentic item just to drum up more interest on that topic in that forum... and a little later, all over the internet! That they could not find another photo like it on the web anywhere, like they did with a couple of other fake photo's where someone had clearly added a UFO to them... that they could not find another one anywhere made that photo "safe" to use as a possible authentic one taken at the airport during that sighting. Just saying that all of these thoughts were going through my mind at that time but not being one who likes to "rock the boat", I remained silent about my own personal sentiments about what was really going on at that time in that thread in regards to that photo. On the other hand, I did not rule out the possibility that Springer had inside information about that photo to support its authenticity that he was not sharing with the rest of the board. Just saying that this seemed to be the prevailing mood on that board at that time and all the more reason why I just chose to wait it out to see what happens next... lol, I'm still waiting. :?
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Re: Alleged O'Hare UFO Photo Reveals Possible ATS Hoax

Postby torbjon » Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:41 pm

Thanks Skylar.

I've re-read the thread a few times now. I'm not seeing any Obvious breaks in continuity but that doesn't mean anything. Springer himself says he deleted two posts from the conversation that were "nothing but missives against one member or another" but there's no Obvious trail for this:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread236709/pg38

(back then things just disappeared *poof*. Nowadays, -in theory- they leave a place holder with a stop sign or some other notice stating that there was a post there but it got removed for such and such a reason)

Anyway, it's all rather moot as your observations at the time were correct in regards to jritzmann making a 180. Many people noticed it. Some, like Dr.Love commented upon it in open forum. Lost_shaman commented on it in the O'Hare investigation thread here at RU. I noticed it at the time, received some U2Us from 'concerned' ATS members about it, and since jmann and I were both members of the same private working group I asked the jmann about it privately then as well. He was pretty chatty with me about his investigation until he made the complete 180, then he simply Stopped replying to my U2Us altogether.

It seems that a substantial number of people felt as you did... "don't rock the boat", "wait and see", "something is not right but all will become clear soon" etc.

Again, thanks for your input. Nothing is insignificant. A lot of people feel that "something fishy" was going on then but don't come forward and state that openly because people like you and I have done so already... They read it, they nod their heads 'yep' and then they stop because it's "out there" and perhaps feel that their input would be redundant or non helpful...

Well, your input IS helpful, and greatly appreciated.

Thanks again.

Okay, duty calls.
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Re: Alleged O'Hare UFO Photo Reveals Possible ATS Hoax

Postby ryguy » Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:49 pm

No Torb...most people simply lack courage. They are brave behind their keyboards, typing up their little posts like they're the next best thing...but tell you what, when push comes to shove and people need to actually take a stand - put their actual name and face behind what they believe and what they write...well guess what. Some people sh*t themselves, and other people step forward and carry on despite what kind of mud is slung, or how many bullets are flying, or how many "threats" are issued.

These are the moments, these are the issues, and these are the times when the brave are identified by example, not by their big-mouthed platitudes.

In case you didn't realize it - I'm identifying every single person who has stood up here in this forum and let their voice be heard as those who make up "the brave". The rest...the ones you describe who huddle in their little corner and let others fight their battles for them - to be completely honest with you, they make me sick.

-Ry
---
"Only a fool of a scientist would dismiss the evidence and reports in front of him and substitute his own beliefs in their place." - Paul Kurtz

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