On the ATS Culling Program - FTR (Hi, Springer)

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On the ATS Culling Program - FTR (Hi, Springer)

Postby chrLz » Sat Nov 13, 2010 12:21 am

Having watched with dismay as ATS goes on its skeptic/debunker culling program, I have responded to the current 'civility' threads a few times. After this post by Springer:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread627758/pg14#pid9909699
I responded as shown below, but my post was deleted as 'off-topic'. I sorta figured that might happen so I kept it...

Anyway, judge for yourselves how offtopic and unpleasant it was... Judging from the U2U's and emails I got, it struck a chord with a number of folks, but wasn't something Springer or SO or other mods wanted to debate. Indeed, they have avoided any debate on the issue of fairness like the plague. And imo, the plague is rife at ATS.

As posted at ATS (and removed by Springer)
Originally posted by Springer
reply to post by cushycrux
[more]
I'll tell you what, YOU go build a site as popular as ATS and YOU can treat anyone who comes to it ANY way you want. I am assuring you that if you attack a fellow member of ATS for posting a video, a picture, or anything else just because YOU think you know it's a hoax and YOU think they know it's a hoax too your account will disciplined and possibly banned.

That is exactly the WRONG way to go about things...

Oh, the ironing...

And I'll tell YOU what.. :D

When you guys properly acknowledge that all sides are gulity of unpleasantries, almost invariably under provocation and essentially due to a lack of moderator INVOLVEMENT in threads nowadays, then maybe the migration of skeptics away from this site might be checked.

But of course it is all justified - I mean, how can you guys possibly be involved in threads, when your push is simply to get more postings, and the place is now overrun with rubbish? It seems that ATS is no longer about good content - it's about hits and ad revenue, not denying ignorance. And it would be so difficult to simply monitor the top twenty threads in the major forums... right?


Anyway enough whining from me, why not change the tone of this thread? One of the fundamentals of good teaching is that you praise the good publicly, and deal with the bad in private. (Oh, and being fair to all sides comes into it, too, but does one really have to repeat that..??)

So, firstly, thanks DDR for expressing my feelings perfectly...

I'd just like to offer an extremely heartfelt THANKYOU to all those 'believers' - for want of a better word - who have been prepared to listen, to accept other viewpoints, to look at research, to have a bit of a sense of humour, to not troll.. and who have been willing to ask "What is this?" (instead of jumping to conclusions and then getting uptight and deeply hurt when those conclusions were pointed out to be incorrect.)

You know who you are - I've had many many enjoyable, productive and polite conversations with you, in the forums, by U2U and also by email. Seriously, you guys made it all worthwhile.

On that topic, there are a couple of ATSers out there who contacted me by email, and are waiting very patiently for me to provide them with deeper analyses of their images - if you guys are reading this, I haven't forgotten you and will complete those in the very near future - I thank you for your patience (and also your faith that I might actually know a little on the topics at hand). :) There may also be a few folk waiting on some other stuff I have promised, eg the completion of the Apollo radiation story, and the analysis of the.. er.. 'luciferian' images.. While I do intend to complete those also, it won't be here on ATS. I'll see if I can get a message posted here to direct you wherever I do that (in complete contravention of ATS rules!). If I've forgotten anything else, let me know - I'll check in occasionally, if only to see how it all pans out.

Anyway, for the moment, it's goodbye from me ("Enough!" as they say.. :D), and don't worry, I'll dodge the door slam... :)

For as they also say, there's always another door...
"To wear the mantle of Galileo, it is not enough that you be persecuted by an unkind establishment. You must also be right." - Robert L. Park (..almost)
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Re: On the ATS Culling Program - FTR (Hi, Springer)

Postby the|exx » Sat Nov 13, 2010 3:53 am

chrLz wrote:
Anyway, judge for yourselves how offtopic and unpleasant it was...

chrLz wrote:While I do intend to complete those also, it won't be here on ATS. I'll see if I can get a message posted here to direct you wherever I do that (in complete contravention of ATS rules!). If I've forgotten anything else, let me know - I'll check in occasionally, if only to see how it all pans out.

Anyway, for the moment, it's goodbye from me ("Enough!" as they say.. :D), and don't worry, I'll dodge the door slam... :)

For as they also say, there's always another door...


I think this is the part they got you on my good man. While I was reading this post, I found myself agreeing with much of what you had to say... but when I reached the part at the bottom, I thought you might have taken it a bit too far with the T&C. Your language would tend to suggest that you knew that might be the case though (re: the door).

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Re: On the ATS Culling Program - FTR (Hi, Springer)

Postby DoomsdayRex » Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:27 am

First off, let me say I am not here to bash ATS in any way, shape or form. I came to RU because friends mentioned it as a place to met like-minded people, not because I'm fleeing ATS or anything of the sort. I can be a creature of two-worlds.

That being said, I've rather disappointed and saddened to see how they've handled the civility-issue. I had an exchange with Springer, just after CHRLZ post was removed (same thread) wherein I warned him that the behavior of the staff was only making the situation worse; he responded by being condescending and completely ignoring the point.
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Re: On the ATS Culling Program - FTR (Hi, Springer)

Postby chrLz » Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:33 am

the|exx wrote:
chrLz wrote:
chrLz wrote:While I do intend to complete those also, it won't be here on ATS. I'll see if I can get a message posted here to direct you wherever I do that (in complete contravention of ATS rules!). If I've forgotten anything else, let me know - I'll check in occasionally, if only to see how it all pans out.

Anyway, for the moment, it's goodbye from me ("Enough!" as they say.. :D), and don't worry, I'll dodge the door slam... :)

For as they also say, there's always another door...


I think this is the part they got you on my good man. While I was reading this post, I found myself agreeing with much of what you had to say... but when I reached the part at the bottom, I thought you might have taken it a bit too far with the T&C.


My problem is that I have that unfinished work to do - the last half or so of a fairly 'deep' analysis of the radiation issue in regard to the Apollo missions, and also a treatise on the steps involved in 'properly' analysing an image. I want to complete those, and that content will be very relevant to quite a few topics at ATS, some of which I have participated in. Now, as I'm a careful sorta guy, those analyses will involve *nothing* that ATS 'owns', so I don't really see the problem if their existence gets back to ATS... (BTW, I intend to post those on one of my websites, not as a forum post anywhere.) Of course I'll be pointing their existence out *here* as well, so that will probably be sufficient.... :lol:

Your language would tend to suggest that you knew that might be the case though (re: the door).

You may not believe this, but that comment truly had nothing to do with me thinking I might get banned or reprimanded about that - it was simply my pre-emptive strike to the *inevitable* 'don't let the door hit you in the a...' comments that get tossed towards any loser who announces they are leaving, thinking anyone actually cares... :D

Well, they are normally inevitable, but now my post has been removed... oh well.. :(
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Re: On the ATS Culling Program - FTR (Hi, Springer)

Postby m0r1arty » Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:56 am

I say go for it chrLz,

Perhaps have a widget sidepanel or header stating that ATS does not welcome your opinion or outlook so that anyone who goes there must read it and question ATS' policies regarding uz ebil 'skeptics'.

Make sure you are cited as the original source too so people must give you due traffic and recognition.

Use ATS as an advertising vehicle for your own material.

I didn't think the door thing was bad.

Skeptical Overlord stating that some members are an "ass" was much, much worse and allowed.

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Re: On the ATS Culling Program - FTR (Hi, Springer)

Postby Why Not? » Sat Nov 13, 2010 10:09 am

M0r1arty.....

The most recent post in that thread.....

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thr ... pid9920719

.....calls "skeptics" an "attack squad".

Imagine if the roles were reversed.....

Imagine if it was me in there calling the "believers" an "attack squad".

I also note I am getting attacked specifically in that post, via reference to my ubiquitous "kind regards" sign off. The owners & / or mods will know that, seeing that sign off is on every one of my 8,231 posts.

Kind regards
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Re: On the ATS Culling Program - FTR (Hi, Springer)

Postby m0r1arty » Sat Nov 13, 2010 12:28 pm

Why Not?

I'm fairly certain that if the roles were reversed we'd a whole bunch of people claiming persecution.

Is Israel and Palestine there just now.

Will skeptics be treated fairly and jsutly?

Maybe...maybe not.

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Re: On the ATS Culling Program - FTR (Hi, Springer)

Postby DoomsdayRex » Sat Nov 13, 2010 5:24 pm

In a manner of speaking, the roles have been reversed.

In addition to the normal paranoia that goes along with a belief in UFO conspiracies, there would be frequent complaints that ATS is a debunker website and that believers were being unfairly targeted (see Why Not's above post for an example...). Except now, it is not unwarranted paranoia and persecution complex. If they are not wanting to run away members, they have a funny way of showing it.
If anyone can show me and prove to me that I am wrong in thought or deed I will gladly change. I seek the truth which never yet hurt anybody. It is only persistence in self-delusion and ignorance which does harm. -- Marcus Aurelias
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Re: On the ATS Culling Program - FTR (Hi, Springer)

Postby the|exx » Sat Nov 13, 2010 5:29 pm

Why Not? wrote:M0r1arty.....
I also note I am getting attacked specifically in that post, via reference to my ubiquitous "kind regards" sign off. The owners & / or mods will know that, seeing that sign off is on every one of my 8,231 posts.

Kind regards
Why Not?


Yeah I saw that too. Shameful! Apparently even signing off in a neighbourly way is perceived as uncivil behaviour by some of these cry babies. They even attacked one sceptic who has a signature that reads,

UFO means "Unidentified Flying Object" not "Alien Spaceship".

One particular member even took offence to this and suggested:

Every single person on this board is a "skeptic" but you define yourself a greater "skeptic"
I don't need people to tell me "UFOs doesn't mean alien spacecraft"
It's quite patronising but yet you openly make it your persona.
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread627758/pg15#pid9921160


He then goes on to set this member up for an ad-hom attack by asking him:

I'm not being funny here it's just that I don't understand.
can i ask you what you actually like or what are your favourite things?
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread627758/pg15#pid9921160


Like.. what information does he hope to garner from this? Is he trying to make some psychological assessment of him? Why ask him for personal information about his life in order to qualify his stance. Truly pathetic!

Why aren't moderators doing something about these types of veiled attacks in that thread?

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Re: On the ATS Culling Program - FTR (Hi, Springer)

Postby Access Denied » Sat Nov 13, 2010 5:55 pm

DoomsdayRex wrote:...he responded by being condescending and completely ignoring the point.

Try not to take it personally, it’s just business. Mark’s worried that a handful of critical thinkers are going to chase his bread and butter away so he’s simply trying to score points with them… at your expense.

chrLz, you weren’t banned for that “goodbye” post were you? Don’t worry about reposting your own stuff elsewhere, ATS doesn’t own it exclusively from you. It’s still yours and you don’t have to link back to it if you don't want to.
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Re: On the ATS Culling Program - FTR (Hi, Springer)

Postby Access Denied » Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:01 pm

Well, so much for that debate, in reply to m0r1arty...

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thr ... pid9922134

Springer wrote:You actually just clarified one of my main points, thank you... You ask about whether or not someone should volunteer their time in disproving an obviously (to them) fake/misidentified YouTube video that has apparently been thrown up on the site "willy nilly".

The answer is NO. If you think it's bunk and the only think you can add to the discussion is a snide remark or put down, simply IGNORE IT. That's all, don't waste your time.

I can't tell you how many times I do that a week, it's very easy.

In any case, this thread is now officially ridiculous and, since it's served its purpose of putting EVERYONE on notice, I'm closing it.

[scratches head]

So what is Mark trying to say? Don't debunk because it's a waste of time or don't debunk because it's a put down?

I think the later… debunking discourages “me too” posts and damages fragile egos.

I know there are few folks that ridicule “willy nilly” posts but I don’t think it was any of the folks participating in that thread who were upset about skeptics in general being singled out… why not just deal with the habitual offenders individually as the offenses occur? Isn’t that what the T&C are for?

I know why, it was intended as an ego boost for the “true believers”… smack down on those evil debunkers! :lol:

I notice Zorgon is back to recycling already debunked material as if it never happened so it must be working.
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Re: On the ATS Culling Program - FTR (Hi, Springer)

Postby m0r1arty » Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:35 pm

They came first for the skeptics,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a skeptic.

Then they came for the 'Truethers',
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a 'Truether'.

Then they came for the equity questioners,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a equity questioner.

Then they came for me
and by that time no one was left to speak up.

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Re: On the ATS Culling Program - FTR (Hi, Springer)

Postby DoomsdayRex » Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:02 pm

Well, it seems I am now the subject of a stealth-banning. They didn't ban me outright but screwed with my login information so I can't sign in.

If Springer was a man he'd take criticism standing up; if he were a man, he'd ban me outright so everyone would know why I was banned. But he's not, he's proven as much.
If anyone can show me and prove to me that I am wrong in thought or deed I will gladly change. I seek the truth which never yet hurt anybody. It is only persistence in self-delusion and ignorance which does harm. -- Marcus Aurelias
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Re: On the ATS Culling Program - FTR (Hi, Springer)

Postby Why Not? » Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:35 pm

Good Morning.....

In one of the several threads by owners & moderators denouncing the behaviour of “skeptics”, I noted very politely I felt the moderation was not balanced.

Many assurances were posted to the effect this was not true. I then finally responded very politely that I felt the moderation had become so unbalanced it had become unacceptable.

To validate my assertion, I noted that in one recent thread…..

- I was sworn at on a number occasions

- Fart videos were posted at me

- Vomiting symbols were posted at me

- I was called a Neanderthal

- I was called a liar

- I was called a moron

- I was called a snake

- I was called a terrorist

- I was called a hater

- I was called a handicapped person

- I was called a heckler

- I was called a disinfo agent, etc...

Result…..nothing

There was no moderator intervention, despite the fact I raised it many times in-thread as an issue & the member who wrote all that is still making threads & posting his material & commentary.

I then noted that in another recent thread I was attacked for most of a 2-page block, subsequent to a series of other less than polite member posts leading up to that, to which I made no response in the interest of not inflaming the discussion any further.

Result…..nothing

And then…..

I made one minor transgression (i.e. I made a comment that a well known YouTube serial hoaxer is a “hoaxing idiot”....nothing was aimed at a member) & I got slammed by one of the owners…..i.e. I received an “extreme T&C” & a "warning"…..my first ever in 8,231 posts.

When I then asked if that is.....

“a balanced outcome”

.....a very senior moderator replied.....

“it’s not about balanced outcomes”.

Kind regards
Why Not?
Last edited by Why Not? on Sat Nov 13, 2010 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: On the ATS Culling Program - FTR (Hi, Springer)

Postby Why Not? » Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:57 pm

DoomsdayRex wrote:Well, it seems I am now the subject of a stealth-banning. They didn't ban me outright but screwed with my login information so I can't sign in.
If Springer was a man he'd take criticism standing up; if he were a man, he'd ban me outright so everyone would know why I was banned. But he's not, he's proven as much.


DoomsdayRex.....

The premise of a “stealth ban” is an interesting one. Based on the problems encountered by another member during the past few days, there seem to be some indications that something like this might be going on.

Now, if that is going on…..

As I've stated previously, during my interactions with Springer in thread, by U2U & on ATS Live, I have found him to be "up front" & "OK".

If indeed a "stealth ban" has occurred, perhaps Springer doesn’t even know about it.

As I think about my post (above) referring to the treatment I received in those threads, I can’t imagine Springer would condone such behaviour.

Perhaps he isn’t aware of much that is going on. I mean seriously…..how would one keep across all that is going on in a website such as ATS?

Now…..

If that’s the case, perhaps we have a “yes Minister” syndrome occurring over there.

Kind regards
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