Phoenicia and the New World.

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Phoenicia and the New World.

Postby mojo » Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:34 pm

Did the phoenicians discover the New World, long before Columbus, the Chinese or the Vikings. It is my belief that they may have traded with Central and South American cultures sometime between 2000bc - 900bc. Unfortunately any evidence from that period is either scientifically unreliable at the present, is thought of as Pseudo science by scholars or is open to different interpretations and is therefore clogged up in debate and argument.
Here is some information on the Phoenician empire from wikipedia as well as some links from other sites to instigate some discussion.

Wiki

The Phoenicians often traded by means of a galley, a man-powered sailing vessel. They were the first civilization to create the bireme. There is still debate on the subject of whether the Canaanites and Phoenicians were different peoples or not


Strabo states that there was a highly lucrative Phoenician trade with Britain for tin. Trade routes from Asia converged on the Phoenician coast as well, enabling the Phoenicians to govern trade between Mesopotamia on the one side, and Egypt and Arabia on the other.


It is often mentioned that Phoenicians ventured north into the Atlantic ocean as far as Great Britain


Ok so it's Herodotus. :)

They also sailed south along the coast of Africa. A Carthaginian expedition led by Hanno the Navigator explored and colonized the Atlantic coast of Africa as far as the Gulf of Guinea; and according to Herodotus, a Phoenician expedition sent down the Red Sea by pharaoh Necho II of Egypt (c. 600 BC) even circumnavigated Africa and returned through the Pillars of Hercules in three years.


There are claims that Phoenician coins can be found as far inland of the United States of America as Nebraska and Oklahoma.[11] These claims have not been published in any scientific journals and, again, there is no widespread acceptance of the validity of this work in the scientific community.


(ok, this site is biased but some of the information is worth a look)

phoenicia.org

The Canary's and the Azores make sense as resupply points if one was planning to sail to the America's.

Canary Islands

The islands were known to the Phoenicians, Greeks and Romans, and are mentioned in a number of classical sources. For example, Pliny the Elder describes a Carthaginian expedition to the Canaries, and they may have been the Fortunate Isles of other classical writers


Lapalma

It is likely that the first people to discover the Canaries were early Phoenician explorers, originating from Sidon and Tyre in modern-day Lebanon.


There is some further evidence of the Azores having been visited, i'll post that later.
Is it such a stretch to imagine that they could have reached the America's from the Canary's or the Azore's if either of these area's were used as resupply points. I dont believe that they ever attempted to colonize but merely traded with South American and Central American cultures and kept their trade routes secret as they did with all their trading. The Phoenicians are regarded as one of the most skillful and secretive mariners in history..

..........................................................................................................................................

So let me give you a quick run down on what i believe happened.
During the prominence of the Phoenicians as maritime traders, roughly 2000bc - 900bc give or take a few century's they (a) either discovered the America's or (b) already knew where the America's were due to knowledge passed down from ancestors.

I think it might have gone something like this, the Phoenicians OWNED the mediterranean and traded right through that area also down the African coast and up the coast to Scandanavia. There is also physical evidence of the Phoenicians trading for tin in Britain, setting up trading points in the Canary's and some circumstantial evidence for them setting up a trading post/resupply point in the Azores.
Now the Azores and the Canary's are very important for any sea going culture of that time wanting to travel to the America's, it would have been difficult if not impossible for them to make that journey without the ability to resupply with fresh water, i think the evidence exists to show that they did know of these islands.
Now its not much of a stretch to imagine that once resupplied they would have been able to continue on their way to the America's from either the Azores or the Canary's.

Next comes evidence of their presence in the New World, once again the evidence is mainly circumstantial but it does start to build a picture of what occured. What needs to be remembered here is that even in area's that we KNOW the phoenicians lived, loved and worked they left very little evidence of their culture behind, it is even more difficult finding physical evidence of their presence in places where the scholars say they never existed.
What we also need to understand about the Phoenicians is that trading was what distinguished them from every other culture of the time, the Egyptians hired phoenicia to work for them, they were that good. Now because this was so important to them they were extremely secretive and superstitious, no maps of phoenician trade routes exist, they hid their travels from every other culture for obvious reasons, they didnt want competition for such a lucrative livelihood, and in the end both wars and competition from other cultures on the high seas is what destroyed their culture.

So basically i believe that the Phoenicians set up trading posts in probably South and Central America, they had resupply point in either the Azores or the Canary's, they traded extensively up and down the West coast of Africa and Europe and had a trading relationship with the Britons for tin.

Bit thin on the evidence supplied thus far but i think i can respond with more if i'm challenged to do so. :)

Any objections so far?
Questions?
Approval and stroking of ego?

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Re: Phoenicia and the New World.

Postby Jack'sDead » Thu Oct 23, 2008 10:21 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if your theory were to be proved true. I find it hard to believe that over thousands of years of great sailing adventures, and peaks of great civilizations, that no one happened to cross the Atlantic. Or even the Pacific for that matter, but certainly the Atlantic. Just because some people thought the Earth was flat in the dark ages, does not mean that the belief was shared by all the civilizations that came before. Furthermore, great and powerful kings would have been likely to push those limits in search of fortune and glory. Or to at least send expeditions to test those limits.

What jumped out at me though, was the argument wether there is a distinction between Caananites and the Phoenicians. The "lost tribe" has long been rumored to have left the old world for the new.
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Re: Phoenicia and the New World.

Postby mojo » Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:27 am

Jack'sDead wrote: Just because some people thought the Earth was flat in the dark ages, does not mean that the belief was shared by all the civilizations that came before.


Many older civs KNEW that the world was round. Sumer is one that comes to mind...circa 3500bc.
In fact the possibility exists in my mind that the Egyptians found out about the route to the new world from the Sumerians and passed on that information to the Phoenicians.
How do i reach that conclusion...well...its a bit longwinded...short version.
Plato's dialogues (Timaeus and Critieas) mention that Solon found out about Atlantis from egyptian priests. Sumer was a major influence in the early times on the Egyptian civilization.
If the story of Atlantis was based on a civilization that existed in the Azores region it begins to make sense.
Now before you start freaking out..."oh my God he's an Atlantis advocate" just relax, yes its true i believe that there existed an Atlantean civilization, one that existed on a larger land mass than currently exists in the Azores, i believe it was more likely a colony or outpost of sorts, possibly of Sumerian origin and not some technological marvel. When the catastrophic events that destroyed this colony struck, some survivors made it back to either the Levant or Egypt where the story became fable and myth, written down by the egyptian priests.
these folks either became the Phoenicians or the Phoenicians came into Egypts influence, it was noted their maritime skills and so were hired by Egypt for many tasks, amongst them a return voyage to the Azores many centuries later, and from there a hop skip and a jump to the America's.

Jack'sDead wrote:What jumped out at me though, was the argument wether there is a distinction between Caananites and the Phoenicians. The "lost tribe" has long been rumored to have left the old world for the new.


Not sure about that, i think there is better evidence, albeit circumstantial, that the Lost tribe moved south down into Africa.
Who the Phoenicians were is still hotly debated, my opinion is that they were either the vestiges of a Sumerian colony or somehow related to the Sea Peoples...neither of which are particularly popular theories.
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Re: Phoenicia and the New World.

Postby Jack'sDead » Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:13 pm

mojo wrote:Now before you start freaking out..."oh my God he's an Atlantis advocate" just relax, yes its true i believe that there existed an Atlantean civilization, one that existed on a larger land mass than currently exists in the Azores, i believe it was more likely a colony or outpost of sorts, possibly of Sumerian origin and not some technological marvel.


I am ready to accept any revelations that may come regarding Atlantis. Even that such a civilization may have been highly advanced technologically, even in ways that we could not imagine today. It would really be impossible. But there are OOPARTS that stand out which seem to prove, Atlantis or no, that we are not the lords of technology that we like to believe we are. And even ooparts aside, many of our most modern inventions are refurbished versions of ideas that were made in ancient times. Even the devices themselves, though sometimes crude, had already been invented but were forgotten and therefore never refined.

While I find this sort of thing fascinating, it also boggles my mind, and I do not have a solid enough grasp of the facts available to go on to solid theoretical work. #-o The best I can come up with are "gut" feelings and leaving a logical open mind.
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Re: Phoenicia and the New World.

Postby torbjon » Sun Oct 26, 2008 7:19 am

"Footprints of the Welsh Indians" by William L. Traxel

In 1877 the Nez Perce Chief Joseph was captured. Found in his medicine bag was a cuneiform tablet that dated to 2042 B.C. The chief claimed that it was an inheritance from his white ancestors that brought great knowledge to his people eons ago.


Bottom of page 20, may have to scroll up or down a bit...

link to the source

The tablet, about an inch by an inch and a half:

Image

University of Idaho library:
http://www.lib.uidaho.edu/special-colle ... dm1998.htm
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Re: Phoenicia and the New World.

Postby mojo » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:38 pm

Torb, thanks for the link. :D

here's some more, it must be remembered though that the authenticity of these objects and writings is still hotly debated.

www.faculty.ucr.edu

this could well be proto sumerian, i'm more inclined to believe it may be of Phoenician origin and i'm not inclined to believe there hypothesis that the Sumerians came out of Africa either as it is my belief that they probably came from the Caucasus or Anatolia, but still one of many objects found in the America’s that point to a much earlier contact with the Old World than previously thought..

The Fuente Bowl.

A controversy arose about the cuneiform script on the Fuente Magna. Dr. Alberto Marini, translated it and reported that it was Sumerian.. After a careful examination of the Fuente Magna, linear script Dr. Clyde A. Winters determined that it was probably Proto-Sumerian, which is found on many artifacts from in Mesopotamia. An identical script was used by the Elamites called Proto-Elamite.
Dr. Winters believed that researchers had been unable to read the writing because they refused to compare Proto-Elamite and Proto-Sumerian writing with other writing systems used in 3000-2000 BC. He compared the writing to the Libyco-Berber writing used in the Sahara 5000 years ago. This writing was used by the Proto-Dravidians (of the Indus Valley), Proto-Mande , Proto-Elamites and Proto-Sumerians.


www.askwhy.co.uk

Yup, I know, Mount Holyoak. J

The Numismatist, a leading journal in the study of coins, published Mount
Holyoak geologist, Mark McMenamin’s, findings, based on
computer-enhanced images of gold coins, called staters, minted in the
North African city of Carthage between 350 and 320 BC, in its November
1996 issue.
McMenamin interpreted a series of designs appearing on the Carthaginian
coins, the meaning of which has long puzzled scholars. He saw the
designs as a map of the ancient world surrounding the Mediterranean
Sea, including the Americas.
If this is true, these coins not only represent the oldest world maps found
to date, but would also indicate that Carthaginian explorers had sailed to
the New World a good 1,300 years before the Vikings.
McMenamin’s interest in the Carthaginians and Phoenicians as explorers
led him to study the coins. The Carthage being an outpost of Phoenicia
was linked to the Phoenicians of the Middle East in terms of culture,
language, and naval enterprise. Both peoples are widely credited with
significant sailing exploits through the Mediterranean, to the British Isles,
and along the coast of Africa.



primarysources.newsvine.com

Bold seafarers the Phoenicians undoubtedly were. But what would have prompted even the most courageous sailors to set out on an ocean voyage of destined to last weeks upon weeks, all out of site of land, without prior knowledge that an end to the maritime wastes would be discovered? The answer may be that they actually did know that there was something there on the other side of the Atlantic.
In their 1997 bestseller The Hiram Key, Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas speculate on the origin of the name ‘America’, rejecting the popular notion that it was named after the Amerigo Vespucci. Instead, they say that, according to Josephus, “the Essenes believed that good souls have their habitation beyond the ocean, in a region that is neither oppressed with storms or rain or snow nor with intense heat, but refreshed by the gentle breathing of the west wind which perpetually blows from the ocean. This idyllic land across the sea to the west (or sometimes to the north) is a common belief to many cultures, from the Jews to the Greeks to the Celts. The Mandaeans, [direct descendants of the Nasoreans, who Knight and Lomas suggest were the residents of the Qumran community where the Dead Sea Scrolls came from] however, believe that the inhabitants of this far land are so pure that mortal eyes will not see them and that this place is marked by a star, the name of which is ‘Merica’ “. They then go on to further speculate that the star ‘Merica’ is echoed in later Masonic ritual, where Senior and Junior Wardens ritually describe themselves as traveling from the East to the West, in search of “that which was lost”.


www.cristobalcolondeibiza.com

Dick Edgar Ibarra Grasso has identified two Phoenician ships on the centre slabs of the temple of Sechim, in the Casma Valley, on the coast of Peru (La Representación de América en mapas romanos de tiempos de Cristo, Buenos Aires, 1970, pages 175-177). These ruins are generally considered to be some three thousand years old. Other monoliths in the area show a large ocean-going craft and a sextant (Julio C. Tello: Arqueología del valle de Casma, Lima 1956).
Even more extraordinary are the discoveries made by Bernardo Silva Ramos. This author, president of the Manaus Geographical Institute, spent over twenty years in the Amazon rainforest, searching for, photographing and copying 2,800 stone inscriptions, identifying the majority of them as Phoenician and others as Greek (Bernardo de Azevedo da Silva Ramos; Inscriçôes e tradiçôes da América pre-histórica, especialmente do Brasil, Rio de Janeiro, Imprenta Nacional, 1930).
The oriental scholar Lienhardt Delekat (Phönizier in Amerika, Bonn 1969) has established that the characters on the Paraíba Stone are of Canaanite origin (the former town of Paraíba is now called Joao Pessoa and is the capital of the state of Paría, to the south of the Cape of Sâo Roque in Brazil). The stone, which broke into four pieces after it was discovered on a plantation, totally disappeared, but copies of the inscription were made before this occurred. It was discovered on September 11, 1872 and might well be proof that Phoenician sailors reached Brazil two thousand years before the official discovery of America.
We owe the most detailed study of the inscription on the Paraiba stone to Delekat of Bonn University (Paul Gallez: Predescubrimientos de América, Bahía Blanca, Instituto Patagónico 2001, p 41 onwards). The author analyses all the grammatical forms in the text, comparing it to Aramaic, ancient Hebrew, Sidonian and other Canaanite dialects, especially in respect to the form of the imperfect consecutive.
Delekat comes to the conclusion that the passage is written in ancient Tyro-Sidonian, dating from the end of the sixth century BC. Lienhardt Delekat's translation reads as follows: ‘We are children of Canaan, from the city of Sidon. We are a nation of traders. Our ship is beached on this far-off mountainous coast and we want to make a sacrifice to the gods and goddesses. In the 19th year of Irma's reign, we set sail from Ezlon Geber across the Red Sea, with ten ships. We have been sailing now for two years and we have sailed all around this land, both hot and far from the hands of Baal (i.e. cold), and twelve men and three women have arrived here, because ten of the women have died on another coast, because they had sinned. May the gods and goddesses be favourable to us'.



Aristotle and Diodorus both speak of Phoenicia’s exploits.

Diodorus of Sicily wrote:
…in the deep off Africa is an island of considerable size… fruitful,
much of it mountainous… Through it flow navigable rivers… The
Phoenicians had discovered it by accident after having planted
many colonies throughout Africa.


news.softpedia.com

The Phoenicians could have reached America by chance, caught by a storm off northwest Africa. Many identify this description and other of Greek and Roman authors to South America, Antilles or the Mexican coasts.

Phoenician ships were famous for their resistance to sea storms, and the Phoenician fleet was involved in many military campaigns, as part of alliances made by the Phoenician kings or as mercenaries (Egyptians used many times the Phoenician fleet for this purpose). But later, Phoenician cities were overwhelmed by the invasions of foreign powers: Assyria, Babylon, Persia, the Greeks of Alexander the Great, Roman Empire and vanished from history. A Phoenician fleet was involved in the Persian disaster of Salamis (480 BC), when the Greeks achieved a huge victory on the sea.


Much of the hesitancy of many scholars to accept the view that there was pre Columbian trans Atlantic contact with the Old and the New world is the fear that it somehow devalues native American indigenous populations, nothing could be further from the truth imho.
All it means is that certain cultures were much more adept at maritime skills than we give credit for, the general consensus is that Phoenicians were more inclined to set up trading posts than attempt to colonize, therefore there would be very little if any cultural pollution of indigenous populations.
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Re: Phoenicia and the New World.

Postby Access Denied » Fri Oct 31, 2008 8:45 am

mojo wrote:All it means is that certain cultures were much more adept at maritime skills than we give credit for, the general consensus is that Phoenicians were more inclined to set up trading posts than attempt to colonize, therefore there would be very little if any cultural pollution of indigenous populations.

Define cultural pollution. Might this suggest one way to test your theory?

Ancient Phoenicians forgotten, but not gone
One in 17 men living around the Mediterranean may be descendants
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27460517/

The ancient Phoenicians may be largely forgotten, but they're not gone. Rome destroyed the Phoenicians' greatest city — Carthage — centuries ago, but new genetic studies indicate that as many as one in 17 men living in communities around the Mediterranean may be descended from these ancient mariners.

Originating from what is now Lebanon, the Phoenicians were early seafarers and traders who spread their culture, including a love for the color purple, to North Africa, Spain and other countries around the region. But they seemed to fade from history after being defeated in a series of wars with Rome.

Genographic Research Project scientists led by Chris Tyler-Smith of the Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute in England were able to locate a genetic marker for the Phoenicians on the male-only Y chromosome.

First they studied references in the Bible and by Greek and Roman writers to determine where there had been Phoenician cities and colonies.

Then the researchers compared the genes of residents in those areas to those of people living in other Mediterranean communities which had not been Phoenician settlements.

They were able to find differences on the Y chromosome that occurred only in the Phoenician-settled areas, affecting more than 6 percent of the population there.

"When we started, we knew nothing about the genetics of the Phoenicians. All we had to guide us was history: We knew where they had and hadn't settled. But this simple information turned out to be enough, with the help of modern genetics, to trace a vanished people," Tyler-Smith said in a statement.

If they did make it across the Atlantic should we not see some DNA evidence of cross-breeding? I doubt Phoenician sailors would behave any different than their modern counterparts… :)
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Re: Phoenicia and the New World.

Postby mojo » Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:00 am

i dont have much expertise as far as dna evidence goes AD so correct me if i'm mistaken.
the mediterranean was the phoenicians home base, they lived and worked in that whole area for around 2000 years, it stands to reason in my mind that there would be some genetic evidence of there existance within that region, that is where the majority of the phoenician population existed.
now if small groups of phoenician sailors visited south america over the course of a couple of hundred years would that small sample of phoenician dna be enough to show up in genetic testing thousands of years later?

as an aside there is some evidence of lighter skinned tribes within south america, i have some information regarding that but just not at hand right now, it was from a reputable source.
i'll get back to you.

but in the meantime if anyone has a bit more knowledge regarding dna and the liklihood of phoenician dna showing up in south american cultures based on limited contact i'd appreciate your input.

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Re: Phoenicia and the New World.

Postby mojo » Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:58 pm

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_q ... i_n9019146


To resolve the current lack of information about Colombian Amerindian populations, we have investigated the presence of the founder haplogroups in 25 different ethnic groups from all over the country. The present research is part of an interdisciplinary program, Expedicion Humana, fostered by the Universidad Javeriana and Dr. J. E. Bernal V. The results show the presence of the four founder A-D Amerindian lineages, with varied distributions in the different populations, as well as the presence of other haplotypes in frequencies ranging from 3% to 26%. These include some unique or private polymorphisms, and also indicate the probable presence of other Asian and a few non-Amerindian lineages.


Ancient skeletal remains predating the arrival of Columbus have shown that the four A-D Amerindian lineages accounted for most of the mtDNA diversity (Stone and Stoneking 1993, 1998; Monsalve et al 1996; Parr et al. 1996). In these remains, as well as in few extant populations, a fifth lineage, called X, was found at low frequencies (Torroni et al. 1993a; Bailliet et al. 1994; Forster et al. 1996; Stone and Stoneking 1998). These results suggest that the initial colonization of America comprised no more than four main and one minor mtDNA haplogroups (Torroni et al. 1993a; Stone and Stoneking 1993, 1998; Forster et al. 1996).


not sure if this means that there is the possibility of unknown dna from a different cultural group or not, like i said i have no expertise in genetics or dna.

looking into some other scientific journals regarding sth american dna research for clarification.
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Re: Phoenicia and the New World.

Postby lost_shaman » Tue Nov 04, 2008 5:03 am

Hey mojo,

These haplogroups being discussed are all very ancient mDNA lineages present in both very ancient remains and in living descendants today. They, haplogroups (A-D)(X), would be much too old, by many thousands of years, to have relevance in this type of discussion. This also suggests two other things, that being no Phoenician Mother (or any other 'Old World' Mother) ever gave birth to children in the Americas whose remains have been discovered and tested or have living descendants in the Americas that have been sampled.

Of course mDNA doesn't tell us anything at all about any potential Phoenician (Old World) Fathers. As AD pointed out Sailors tend to be Sailors; often willing to kiss the Ground itself much-less the Girls they might find on the Beach! It would be interesting if a 'Phoenician' type Y-Chromosome marker was found in living populations in the Americas; the problem would be that if you found that marker in living populations that were thought to be pure direct descendants you would still have to trace that marker back 2,000? years or so.

The way I see it there would only be a small window of about a thousand years in which remains would have to be dated and also be sampled providing Y-Chromosome DNA matching that of the so-called 'Phoenician' marker in order to show that DNA evidence supports a Contact that lead to a 'Phoenician' Fathering living and also ancient descendants in the Americas. You might as well plan on winning the Lottery because that is more likely to happen than finding and sampling the remains of a handful of individuals you are looking for based only on a DNA marker found around the Mediterranean and Europe.
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Re: Phoenicia and the New World.

Postby mavn » Sat Mar 07, 2009 7:34 am

Although this is an older thread, I still find the information and comments to be very compelling. I have been working on a comparative study for years - not only studying the rock art but other conventional and non-conventional avenues as well to better understand the diverse history of the region I grew up in. It did not take me too long to realize there were likely cultures from just about every corner of the world at one time or another that influenced and continue to influence my particular corner of the world. And to think that ancient maritime cultures did not have a direct affect on other ancient cultures (maritime or not) in my opinion is just plain silly. For example, we know the Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans, Hebrews, Egyptians, Vikings, Chinese, etc. all had the shipbuilding technology to sail the oceans. Why is it so difficult for some people to understand that these maritime travelers really got around? And especially when they all had one very important mission in common and that was to become as wealthy and powerful as possible which equates to resources, resources and more resources! And that is why these people at one time or another were just about everywhere - So not only are some Native Americans of these ancient lineages but so are some of the rest of us. The problem being.....not many people really know who they are. Also, I believe the Fuente Bowl appears to be similar to an Egyptian toiletry vessel (although the artwork looks more Phoenician). These were used by the royal family to urinate in at night-time then were carried carefully away by servants who would grasp the small handles on the sides of the bowl.
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