Stairway to heaven or 8 Miles high ?

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Stairway to heaven or 8 Miles high ?

Postby Chorlton » Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:48 am

Apologies for using led Zep and Byrds song names.

There was a BBC TV prog last week and part of it was examining a US company attempting to claim the $2million NASA prize for some sort of 'Cable to the skies'
At the same time I saw this article in a UK newspaper
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 799369.ece

As a kid I always remember thinking 'If people want to go into space why dont they build a staircase'.

Then we have the new 1Kilometer high Hotel being built in Dubai?. I wouldnt stay in it.
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Re: Stairway to heaven or 8 Miles high ?

Postby mojo » Tue Oct 14, 2008 2:11 pm

was it arthur c clarke who first proposed a "space elevator"?

anyway, the science is pretty fascinating and i think definately doable, whether we are able to do it yet remains to be seen.
weren't the japanese also attempting something similar?
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Re: Stairway to heaven or 8 Miles high ?

Postby Chorlton » Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:42 pm

mojo wrote:was it arthur c clarke who first proposed a "space elevator"?

anyway, the science is pretty fascinating and i think definately doable, whether we are able to do it yet remains to be seen.
weren't the japanese also attempting something similar?


Yes its a Jap idea thats on the link I posted.
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Re: Stairway to heaven or 8 Miles high ?

Postby Jack'sDead » Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:56 pm

I saw a show years back, about how the Japanese were planning mega-skyscrapers. They had a different name for them though I think. Like space-scrapers maybe. Anyway, they were basically buildings the size of small cities, miles high with a gigantic base designed to make the structure earthquake-proof. They said the first one would be built in Tokyo. They went on to speculate that it was feaseable to imagine that people might live out their entire lives, having never left self-contained building with its own powerplant, shopping malls, homes, etc.
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Re: Stairway to heaven or 8 Miles high ?

Postby Access Denied » Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:08 am

Chorlton wrote:Apologies for using led Zep and Byrds song names.

Not that’s there’s anything wrong with that…

Thanks for getting this new forum off the ground Chortlon!

Unfortunately there are a number of unanswered questions regarding feasibility as Alan Boyle points out in his excellent summary of the recent 2008 Space Elevator Conference…

http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/ ... 06845.aspx

If space elevators work out the way the idea's advocates hope, sending payloads into orbit would become as routine as, say, sending a shipment on a freight train - except that the train would travel straight up for hundreds or thousands of miles, powered by laser beams.

But will such a "railroad to the sky" ever be built? That's the big question hanging over the 2008 Space Elevator Conference, taking place this weekend on Microsoft's Seattle-area campus. And considering that this is an event primarily attended by elevator enthusiasts, you may find some of the answers surprising.

One of the biggest advocates of the concept, the late science-fiction seer Arthur C. Clarke, said back in 1979 that the first space elevator would be built "about 50 years after everyone stops laughing."

There wasn't much laughing to be heard as the talks got under way…

[snip]

The technological road ahead
The two main technologies behind the concept are super-strong, ultra-lightweight materials and power-beaming systems.

[snip]

Where are those technologies today?
The technological hurdles facing elevator enthusiasts are every bit as high as their hopes. This weekend's conference provided a progress report on how close the reality is coming to the dream.

[snip]

So ... will it ever rise?
Even if these technologies bear fruit on Earth, the space elevator's success is not assured. Speakers weren't shy about raising additional questions during today's sessions:

- Will nanotube tethers ever be tough enough to endure buffeting by atmospheric winds? How long can they be expected to stand up to exposure to the elements as well as space radiation?

- Would the Earth stations for space elevator systems become prime targets for terrorism? Who will pay the cost of defending them from earthly threats?

- Will there be an acceptable safety margin for space elevator operations? Nugent said that if the space elevator is held to the same safety standards that other industries have to meet, the concept would clearly become financially untenable.

- Can space elevator systems be designed to stand up to collisions with orbital debris?


Ivan Bekey, president of Virginia-based Bekey Designs, said that last point was a potentially fatal flaw for the space elevator concept. "We've got a very fundamental problem for which I have seen no engineering or cost analysis to solve," he said.

Edwards said there were potential solutions to the debris-collision problem, such as repositioning the elevator's Earth station, which would in turn move the system's tether out of the path of the occasional piece of space junk. However, he conceded that more analysis was needed.

"There's no funding," he said, "and this is a real falling-down for the entire program."

Even if it turns out material science can’t deliver the required tether strength as many skeptics predict, the good news is thinking about it will undoubtedly lead to new technologies useful in other applications.

Jack'sDead wrote:They went on to speculate that it was feaseable to imagine that people might live out their entire lives, having never left self-contained building with its own powerplant, shopping malls, homes, etc.

Those silly Japanese… of course they are running out of real estate so it only seems natural to go up… something we all will have to do eventually at the rate we’re going.

Although I imagine we could also go down to buy us some more time…
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Re: Stairway to heaven or 8 Miles high ?

Postby Jack'sDead » Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:55 pm

Access Denied wrote:Although I imagine we could also go down to buy us some more time…


I wonder if that was done before? Perhaps the reptilian agenda is indeed a literal underground movement. I don't know if I actually buy the idea, but it seems plauseable that there might have been a "dinosaur" species that was smart enough to go underground to survive, and has lived on to today. Morlocks and Elois?
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Re: Stairway to heaven or 8 Miles high ?

Postby Chorlton » Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:24 am

Jack'sDead wrote:
Access Denied wrote:Although I imagine we could also go down to buy us some more time…


I wonder if that was done before? Perhaps the reptilian agenda is indeed a literal underground movement. I don't know if I actually buy the idea, but it seems plauseable that there might have been a "dinosaur" species that was smart enough to go underground to survive, and has lived on to today. Morlocks and Elois?


Reptilian Agenda ??? WTF is that?

Plausible? No it isnt plausible at all. As I said when I destroyed John Lear and Barry Kings ideas of 'Deep Underground bases'. It really isnt plausible at all. Well it is, but the logistics involved are massive, which is where Dulce and Peasmore fall at the first hurdle.
So if you are telling me that there was a race of dinosaurs that could invent,make and install Air Conditioning units, which is the bare minimum needed for any animal that size to live underground, (and thats not even mentioning food, water, light and their intelligence to mine and process Iron and steel) then the entire idea is a total fairytale.
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Re: Stairway to heaven or 8 Miles high ?

Postby mojo » Fri Oct 17, 2008 4:20 pm

Chorlton wrote:
Jack'sDead wrote:
Access Denied wrote:Although I imagine we could also go down to buy us some more time…


I wonder if that was done before? Perhaps the reptilian agenda is indeed a literal underground movement. I don't know if I actually buy the idea, but it seems plauseable that there might have been a "dinosaur" species that was smart enough to go underground to survive, and has lived on to today. Morlocks and Elois?


Reptilian Agenda ??? WTF is that?

Plausible? No it isnt plausible at all. As I said when I destroyed John Lear and Barry Kings ideas of 'Deep Underground bases'. It really isnt plausible at all. Well it is, but the logistics involved are massive, which is where Dulce and Peasmore fall at the first hurdle.
So if you are telling me that there was a race of dinosaurs that could invent,make and install Air Conditioning units, which is the bare minimum needed for any animal that size to live underground, (and thats not even mentioning food, water, light and their intelligence to mine and process Iron and steel) then the entire idea is a total fairytale.


while i agree with chorlton, the idea of a reptilian civilization, particularly a primitive one does deserve at least a small amount thought.
though it is science fiction/fantasy the Eden trilogy by Harry Harrison is at le3ast thought provoking and has some scientific merit.

definately worth a look if you havent read them.
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Re: Stairway to heaven or 8 Miles high ?

Postby Chorlton » Fri Oct 17, 2008 4:39 pm

mojo wrote:
while i agree with chorlton, the idea of a reptilian civilization, particularly a primitive one does deserve at least a small amount thought.
though it is science fiction/fantasy the Eden trilogy by Harry Harrison is at le3ast thought provoking and has some scientific merit.

definately worth a look if you havent read them.


Yeah but this is supposed to be about Reality, right?
Reptilian civilsations simply didnt exist nor have they shown any inclination to form any groupings as far as I know...........OH OK Komodo dragons have been known to bunch up on their prey, but I havent seen them inventing tandems or guitars yet !
I know Im a kiljoy, but I just cant hand fictitious stuff like that. You know I havent even read or seen ONE Harry Potter book or film? Im pretty boring eh?

Black Ice has been on BBC2 all week as the featured album. Cant say Im mad about it,all same same
Just been sitting here grooving to Frampton Comes Alive, Sooooooooooooooooo cool
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Re: Stairway to heaven or 8 Miles high ?

Postby ryguy » Fri Oct 17, 2008 4:41 pm

True - another aspect of underground living, by the way, is the fact that creatures who live underground would have evolved to live in that kind of environment (see The World Below Us), so their needs for technology would obviously be completely different. In fact it would be like living on another world. It really is a fascinating concept to think about. I'd avoid giving them names such as "reptilians" though, because too many myths and silly stories surround those terms - and too many people skip over the "gee, what a cool concept," and land directly in "they do exist." It's amazing how quickly people make that leap, isn't it?

Great topic guys.

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Re: Stairway to heaven or 8 Miles high ?

Postby mojo » Fri Oct 17, 2008 4:56 pm

Thats Harry Harrison, NOT harry Potter. :)

the science behind his story's is not of an underground reptilian civ but of one in direct competition with early homo saps above ground, but with a biological technology rather than a technical one, the basis for the theory that no advanced technology still exists for archaeologists to discover.
sure its pure fiction, but it does raise some interesting questions in relation to whether a technology basded on organics would show up using our technology.
its easy to dismiss, much like arthur clarke and asimov's theories were, trouble is that many of those are now considered grounbreaking.
i'm all for treating "out there" theory's with scepticism unless there is evidence to back them, but sometimes it takes some imagination to make a breakthrough.

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Re: Stairway to heaven or 8 Miles high ?

Postby Chorlton » Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:04 pm

Oh man
Im into Ogdens Nutgone Flake now
The Small Faces were just so good.

More Pinot Grigio (Hic !!!)
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Re: Stairway to heaven or 8 Miles high ?

Postby mojo » Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:09 pm

Chorlton wrote:Oh man
Im into Ogdens Nutgone Flake now
The Small Faces were just so good.

More Pinot Grigio (Hic !!!)


lol, pale ale and bourbon, i raise your hic by 2x.

c,mon man, i know your not that stale that you can't appreciate imaginative speculation from authoritive figures who have a scientific background.
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Re: Stairway to heaven or 8 Miles high ?

Postby Chorlton » Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:15 pm

mojo wrote:
Chorlton wrote:Oh man
Im into Ogdens Nutgone Flake now
The Small Faces were just so good.

More Pinot Grigio (Hic !!!)


lol, pale ale and bourbon, i raise your hic by 2x.

c,mon man, i know your not that stale that you can't appreciate imaginative speculation from authoritive figures who have a scientific background.


I can appreciate speculation and science fiction But you couldnt build any 'civilisation' with lizards claws could ya ?
Great for picking your nose but little else.
When imagination starts making people even think think that there could be underground civilisations its time to stop.

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Re: Stairway to heaven or 8 Miles high ?

Postby mojo » Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:00 pm

Chorlton wrote:
mojo wrote:
Chorlton wrote:Oh man
Im into Ogdens Nutgone Flake now
The Small Faces were just so good.

More Pinot Grigio (Hic !!!)


lol, pale ale and bourbon, i raise your hic by 2x.

c,mon man, i know your not that stale that you can't appreciate imaginative speculation from authoritive figures who have a scientific background.


I can appreciate speculation and science fiction But you couldnt build any 'civilisation' with lizards claws could ya ?
Great for picking your nose but little else.
When imagination starts making people even think think that there could be underground civilisations its time to stop.

Oh.....Sha la la la lee ...sing it Steve
Open another bottle woman, and where the Cohiba's


i'm with ya, but i'm not proposing a "morlock" civ nor was Harry.

http://prehistoricpulp.blogspot.com/200 ... -1984.html

West of Eden is the start of a trilogy of novels set on an alternate earth where the dinosaurs never went extinct and have survived to the modern day. The asteroid (or comet) that killed off the great reptiles missed entirely, so mammals never got the chance to take over. One group of reptiles, the mosasaurs, have evolved into the intelligent but cold-blooded Yilane. However, humans also have evolved in North America, where the chilly climate has allowed mammals to out-compete the cold-blooded dinosaurs of Harrison’s world. A coming ice age is forcing the Yilane to spread out to find new territory, resulting in a violent clash between the two species.

West of Eden is essentially a more literary take on One Million Years B.C., although Harrison would probably loathe hearing it described it as such. Nonetheless, through the genre of alternate history, he managed to figure out a way to place dinosaurs and cavemen side-by-side and still keep some measure of plausibility in the story (more on that in a bit).


seriously, as outlandish as it seems, it remains an interesting hypothesis.

more plausable imo than queen elizabeth or george bush being reptilians, lol.
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