"Tungstene": the end of the UFOs photos tampering?

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Re: "Tungstene": the end of the UFOs photos tampering?

Postby elevenaugust » Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:39 pm

Okay guys, some interesting news that I really would like to share with you. :)

Since I've posted my first message here on March, I decided to go further and see if this software (or some other similar) could really help in our understanding/analysis of UFO documents, i-e photos and videos.

First step for me was to contact Mr Cozien, the French Maths PhD who created "Tungstene", in Paris, at the end of September.

Image
Mr Cozien and "Tungstene"

I'll not fully detailled neither what Tungstene is nor how it works here, as I prepare a full presentation of it (and another called "IPACO") both in French and in English to be posted here before the end of November.

However, what i can say is that:
1- It compiles a lot of known maths filters
2- It has an intuitive and attractive interface
3- In most cases, it gives a good indication whether the photo has been manipulated or not however
4- It absolutely don't have to be an end by itself, I mean that only a thorough and serious investigation can give credits to the results. In other words, an analysis done by Tungstene alone have zero credit, and usuals methods for an UFO investigation are needed.

See also this interesting and complete article about Tungstene here

Image
Tungsten allows the user to analyze the way and the propagation of the light on an image in order to check the consistency of the informations.

What I obtained from Mr Cozien after our meeting is:
1- The principle to buy the software licence and the right to have full ownership for the results
2- Due to the very restricted field of study, a "low cost" software, around 20.000$, divided in 10.000$ for the software itself and also 10.000$ for a full week of formation, which is essential for a good control of the capacities of Tungstene.

Back at home, I remembered that there was another imaging specialist in France, well known in the UFO field: François Louange. (Full biography in French here)
Louange is an engineer who worked as an imagery expert for the GEPAN (CNES) and the ESA.
In 1989 he founded and was CEO of Fleximage corporation, specialized in photo-interpretation by computer, providing all the French secret service, as well as lots of European countries, which allow softwares to work on images taken by satellites and other sensors. Subsequently Fleximage, holding 95% of the photo-interpretation market's in France and other countries, become an affiliate of ESA (European Space Agency).

Image

François Louange also participated to the Pocantico symposium who took place from the 29th september to the 4th october 1997, as a scientist.
It was organized at the initiative of Rockefeller (and headed by Sturrock) and in which he participated, with Velasco, Vallee and Veyret, among many others researchers. This symposium was intended to take again Condon report's conclusions to try to contradict one of it, in which it was said, in substance, that the UFO phenomenon was not worth any scientifical study.
Thanks to the substantive diplomatic work of Peter Sturrock, it ended with a consensus that was far from a foregone conclusion, as there was so much various point of view on the matter.....
Full report of the Pocantico symposium can be seen here

Image
From left to right: T. Holzer, V. Eshleman, Rodeghier, Schuessler, H. Melosh, J. Jokipii, H. Puthoff, D. Pritchard, Sturrock, C. Tolbert, F. Louange, Laurance Rockefeller, Vélasco, I. von Ludwiger, H. Diamond, M. Sims, J. Vallée, B. Haisch, B. Veyret, Haines, Swords, J. Papike, G. Reitz, E. Strand

We also talked about many famous UFO cases, including "Petit Rechain" in Belgium, which we now know that it was a hoax.

Then, the state of research in France has been mentioned and I came to realize how much he was happy to talk to someone on the photo/video analysis subject, which, from his own mouth "does not happen every day";
Louange, although officially retired, continues to gradually develop its specialized analysis software "IPACO" (version 2.19 as of today)
He made me a demo and gave me a CD with software and a license key valid until the end of the year.

Image
IPACO graphic interface

I told him about my meeting with Mr Cozien, the cost of the software and my plan to conciliate on solid basis (which does not yet exist) the UFO world and the one, more scientific, of photographic analysis.
What interests Louange is my excellent contact among the ufology characters, that he do not have (he do not go on forums, blogs and do not follow closely UFO news).

Going back to its software, it is developed in three phases:
1 - Materials for picture analysis
2 - Materials for video analysis
3 - Establishment of databases: UFOCAT (based on "UFOCAT" from Vicente-Juan Ballester Olmos), IFOCAT and CAMCAT (cameras and camcorders database)
François Louange is actually at the development of phase three.

I must also say that I am both surprised and flattered by the confidence that Mr Louange put in me, which proves that it is still quite possible to be able to do some good job based on reciprocal and mutual trusted relationships.

Compared to those of Mr Cozien, its software uses less powerful mathematical filters, leaving a greater share in logical reasoning and scientific interpretation than Tungstene, which is more like a "turnkey" supplied product.

In short and in conclusion, I would say that my trip wasn't vain. Many positive things came out of these meetings and I now have good raw material to work with confidence. :)

As I have already explained many times here and on other French and English speaking forums, I think, and it is a constant since I'm in the UFO field, that there's still lack of education, seriousness, professionalism, in the study of UFO documents.
It goes without saying that very few ufologists in the world are specialized in this area and, when they are, they also lack the tools, that could be able to help to support them in their efforts to unravel facts from fictions and fakes
I started, some years ago, a substantive work and education on most UFO forums/blogs in French and English, but I think I have reached the limits of what I could show; now I miss many powerful tools designed to help to detect fakes.

IPACO, like Tungstene, in my opinion, are certainly such tools, from what I saw from Mr Louange and Mr Cozien, they are fast, efficient and scalable, although different in their practice with the user interface, IPACO being simpliest to use.

Image

In short, my goal, to today's date, can be summarized in three points:
1 - Make a detailed and objective presentation, as far as possible, of the capabilities, possibilities and techniques used of both softwares dedicated to forensic analysis, and supported with concrete examples such as the already existing studies of UFO photographic documents.
[Incidentally, a technical connection with the operation of the license proposed by Mr Cozien is that I'm not operator of this license on behalf of Tungstene or owner of such license, but only the owner of the analysis results. I'm then free to do what I want with these results; to get paid for the work done, for example.]
2 - Present this document to all my contacts in the UFO world (who know me also for my analysis work done here, for the MUFON and some others ...) specifying them that I have now much more powerful tools able to help me to do this work more thoroughly and professionally, and opening a subscription (or using an existing one) to help me to buy the rights to operate a license (either Tungstene or IPACO).
3 - If points 1 and 2 take place without problems and if I succeed in interesting enough subscribers to my project, the purchase and operation of the license will follow, with either the opening of a new specialized Internet site or a dedicated section in an existing forum / blog dedicated to photographic analysis, and the opportunity for private organizations or UFO independant researchers of ordering.

So, here's, quickly and roughly outlined, what I intend to do in the future, the most difficult point is obviously to raise enough money to buy a license ...
But hey, there already has been generous subscribers in France who helped me to finance the necessary travels to meet people, so I do not despair!

Of course, I'm opened to any suggestion, opinion and comment; I'll do my best to try to answer any of these.

:)
IPACO, the new tool for photo and video analysis is on-line! www.ipaco.fr
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Re: "Tungstene": the end of the UFOs photos tampering?

Postby murnut » Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:33 am

Great Job 11!

I'm glad you are on this....ufology needs more folks like you
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Re: "Tungstene": the end of the UFOs photos tampering?

Postby elevenaugust » Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:43 am

Thank you Murnut! :)
IPACO, the new tool for photo and video analysis is on-line! www.ipaco.fr
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Re: "Tungstene": the end of the UFOs photos tampering?

Postby stiver » Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:13 pm

Hi, elevenaugust. Congratulations on your achievements. These software certainly are what UFO photo analysis needs so badly today and I very much hope you'll be heard. A website offering such services sounds a very good idea, especially if it shows a couple of convincing sample analyses.

I am not a specialist and am not ashamed to admit that I don't understand the graphics in the screenshots above. Therefore I want to ask you a couple of questions about the abilities of the programs.

1. I suppose, it wouldn't be a problem for a specialist with the help of these programs to determine beyond doubt when an object is inserted (pasted) into the photo. But is it capable of calculating the actual distance to a real object, especially when there is no good reference point. For example, a disk appearing to be hovering in cloudy sky, diffused light.

2. Does these software work only with digital pictures? Could it be used to analyse scanned old photos - the old McMinnville UFO photos, for example.
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Re: "Tungstene": the end of the UFOs photos tampering?

Postby elevenaugust » Sun Nov 27, 2011 7:40 pm

stiver wrote:Hi, elevenaugust. Congratulations on your achievements. These software certainly are what UFO photo analysis needs so badly today and I very much hope you'll be heard. A website offering such services sounds a very good idea, especially if it shows a couple of convincing sample analyses.

Hi Stiver and thanks for the compliments! Hopefully the process will take a new fresh impetus at the beginning of next year as I'll probably finished the full presentation before the end of December.

stiver wrote:1. I suppose, it wouldn't be a problem for a specialist with the help of these programs to determine beyond doubt when an object is inserted (pasted) into the photo. But is it capable of calculating the actual distance to a real object, especially when there is no good reference point. For example, a disk appearing to be hovering in cloudy sky, diffused light.

Those are excellent questions and I'll try to answer these the best I can. :)

No, physics are the same, no matter the software used. what you could possibly achieved in the better case is an estimated scale of the distance depending of an estimated size of the "object", but , in fact, very rare are the cases that join together al the good conditions to do such an estimation.
However, there's some cases were stereophotogrammetry (with triangulation) could be used, but only in case there are two or more photographies.

A more sophisticated technique, called stereophotogrammetry, involves estimating the three-dimensional coordinates of points on an object. These are determined by measurements made in two or more photographic images taken from different positions (see stereoscopy). Common points are identified on each image. A line of sight (or ray) can be constructed from the camera location to the point on the object. It is the intersection of these rays (triangulation) that determines the three-dimensional location of the point. More sophisticated algorithms can exploit other information about the scene that is known a priori, for example symmetries, in some cases allowing reconstructions of 3D coordinates from only one camera position.

source

stiver wrote:2. Does these software work only with digital pictures? Could it be used to analyse scanned old photos - the old McMinnville UFO photos, for example.

Yes, and that's an interesting point; I'll exposed how it works in my full presentation to come, with one or two concrete examples.
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Re: "Tungstene": the end of the UFOs photos tampering?

Postby stiver » Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:38 pm

Thanks a lot for your kind reply, Eleven. All this is very interesting. I'm very much looking forward to your full presentation.

BTW, today I read an interesting article in Nature.com on the topic. I didn't know that image manipulation is such an issue for the scientific community too:

Computer Model Spots Image Fraud
http://www.nature.com/news/computer-mod ... aud-1.9502

The UK, France and Norway are considering legislation to require digitally altered images to be labelled as such

Quote: Farid notes that image manipulation is a growing problem in the scientific community, calling it "extremely disturbing”. He explains that it has become all too easy for some researchers to misrepresent their results, enhancing DNA bands in a gel, for example, or scrubbing out background blemishes, either to innocently make images look better or, in some cases, to skew the results deliberately.... “About 70% of our cases involve questioned images.”

Best wishes.
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Re: "Tungstene": the end of the UFOs photos tampering?

Postby elevenaugust » Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:17 pm

Dear fellow RU members and friends!

I'm proud to announce you the next step in my project: the dedicated IPACO site to UFO photos and video analysis will be on-line on the 22 this month.

With the help of my partner, François Louange, the creator of the IPACO software, it's an outcome of a long-term project that begun with the drone photos case, more than five years ago.

I'll put the link to the site and forum here as well next week.

Any comment, opinions and criticisms are welcome! :)
IPACO, the new tool for photo and video analysis is on-line! www.ipaco.fr
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Re: "Tungstene": the end of the UFOs photos tampering?

Postby DrDil » Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:16 pm

elevenaugust wrote:Dear fellow RU members and friends!

I'm proud to announce you the next step in my project: the dedicated IPACO site to UFO photos and video analysis will be on-line on the 22 this month.

With the help of my partner, François Louange, the creator of the IPACO software, it's an outcome of a long-term project that begun with the drone photos case, more than five years ago.

I'll put the link to the site and forum here as well next week.

Any comment, opinions and criticisms are welcome! :)

Hi 11,

So what did the analysis of the Drone photographs show? :D

Seriously though, great work and I’m looking forward to seeing the fruits of your labour.


Cheers.
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Re: "Tungstene": the end of the UFOs photos tampering?

Postby elevenaugust » Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:41 pm

DrDil wrote:
elevenaugust wrote:Hi 11,

So what did the analysis of the Drone photographs show? :D

Seriously though, great work and I’m looking forward to seeing the fruits of your labour.


Cheers.

We will probably take again the drone photos before the end of this years, using IPACO, but nothing have been decided yet! :)

Thanks for the kind words, and I'm proud to announce you today the opening of the IPACO Internet site.
Please, check it out there :

ipaco
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