This may change your perception of Bigfoot forever!

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Re: This may change your perception of Bigfoot forever!

Postby jbondo » Mon Jun 21, 2010 2:22 pm

These videos have not been around for years. While similar videos exist, this analysis is predominately new. Which makes me think that you didn't even watch them. In fact, this is the last time I'm going to respond to you in any thread.

Tim, while I'm not convinced Bigfoot is out there, I do think they had some very good analysis in this latest video. In fact, it could very well be that "Patty" was one of the last of the species and they have since gone extinct. However, even if 1% of the reported sightings (and there are thousands that go unreported) are accurate, it has to make you think.

As Gunter mentioned (siting the MG) many species now known weren't previously traceable either. It is getting harder and harder for any animal to remain undetected but I do think that if Bigfoot is out there it is an intelligent animal that is purposely keeping its distance from man.

By the way, I very much appreciate the participation in this discussion.
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Re: This may change your perception of Bigfoot forever!

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:55 pm

Why do we need to look for Bigfoot?

Disotell has conducted DNA analyses of more than 15 samples over the years of blood, feces, bone, hair and other remnants of supposed chupacabra or Bigfoot-like creatures. His samples have come from various places in the United States, Canada and as far as Nepal, where the Abominable Snowman or Yeti is said to reside.

"It stretches credibility just from the sense that you can't just have one or two of these beasts running around for tens of thousands of years; you need a population to be viable," he said.

The "evidence" he has examined was, in reality, material from bears, coyotes, humans, mountain goats,and inorganic sources. He ran analyses of their DNA with the same rigor as any other samples in his lab, which routinely does such tests to help classify species of primates from all over the world.


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Re: This may change your perception of Bigfoot forever!

Postby jbondo » Tue Jun 22, 2010 5:24 pm

Ray,

I am of the opinion that Mermaids, Chupacabras and Werewolves are complete fantasy as it should be. However I believe Bigfoot has a realistic possibility of existing. As for this guy from last week that said he saw a 10 ft tall Bigfoot with 6 fingers on each hand....I just find his story hard to believe. If there are Bigfoot groups I can't imagine any of them being 10 ft tall. That is just ridiculous IMO and humans are very bad at estimating height anyway.

I can't fully accept that Bigfoot roams North America until there is a body. Now I do not condone killing one but if a carcass is found then great. For all we know they are intelligent enough to drag their dead deep into the bush. Without that body though we just have to go on what we have which isn't enough.
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Re: This may change your perception of Bigfoot forever!

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:15 pm

jbondo wrote:I can't fully accept that Bigfoot roams North America until there is a body. Now I do not condone killing one but if a carcass is found then great. For all we know they are intelligent enough to drag their dead deep into the bush. Without that body though we just have to go on what we have which isn't enough.


I hope you also include "skeletal remains" in addition to a body, because this has the important factor of opening the time horizon to allow proof such a species exist. And unfortunately, IMO, the lack of any such skeleton pretty much closes the door on the probability of their existence. It is one thing to propose (without anything to back the proposal) that the Bigfoot species is intelligent enough to haul the bodies of their dead away from humans. But if we are to suppose that this species has roamed North America (and we do not adopt the ridiculous stipulation that they just showed up in the gene pool recently), then it stands to reason that they likely have roamed (and died) in places that were once devoid of humans, but now are populated by us. Do you see the logic I am using? The fact that we humans have "invaded" and "set up shop" in an awful lot of areas of this country that used to be very remote, and still have not found a single skeleton of such a creature (or even just a single bone, like a femur, from which an estimation of the size/structure of the whole body could be derived) seems to put an awfully big damper on the probability of their existence...at least IMO.

I would like to believe in these creatures too, but right now the dearth of evidence is certainly pointing to a less than 50% probability that they are real.
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Re: This may change your perception of Bigfoot forever!

Postby jbondo » Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:43 am

Some great points and I will say that these are questions that I have also pondered. Don't look now but that whole dimensional being thing just popped into my head and I have been laughing at that theory for years. In fact I'm going to forget I even thought about that.

It's hard to believe when you look at it like you do and I respect your views but what about the thousands upon thousands of sightings? As I said, even if 1% of those are actual encounters.....

I don't know why we haven't found bones, I just don't know. Maybe there is something about this particular species that causes the bones to disintegrate over time. Many questions will have to be answered before we can accept the existence of BF.
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Re: This may change your perception of Bigfoot forever!

Postby Tim Hebert » Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:41 am

In order for a species of any kind to survive.....they must propagate. Offspring must survive in adequate numbers and have a sufficient male/female ratio to survive into adulthood......and continue the process. Circle of Life....cinematic b.s. indeed, but relevant to my point.

There is a web site that list all Bigfoot sightings in the US. I'll try to find and post it. Interesting, listed on that site is a 1970s sighting in east San Diego County, outside of Alpine, CA. A San Diego psychiatrist reported seeing a Bigfoot-like creature roaming around his house in broad daylight. One wonders what Freud or Jung would think of the psychiatrist. East San Diego County is a very mountainous and arid region with sage brush and desert pines for ground cover. Temps in the summer easily reach well past 100 degrees F.

While reading about this sighting, I couldn't help but ask myself, "How could such a creature live off of sparse vegetation in a very arid region of the country?" Would this mean that Bigfoot is a migratory animal? Is it nomadic by nature? As populated as San Diego County is, why hasn't there been an increase number of sights?

Ray is right, concerning the content of his linked article. All biological "evidence" has lead to proof that other known and well documented species left fecal material, matted hair, foot/paw prints, etc. Hell, even Monster Quest's so called experts had to pack their bags and leave empty handed at the end of the day.

There are certain Native American tribes in the Pacific Northwest that centuries ago drew pictures of a Bigfoot-like creature as a spirit being. This spirit being was viewed as a protector and other times as a harmful spirit. Some "experts" use this example as proof that Bigfoot existed centuries ago. I might add that some Native American fokelore states that Coyote tricked Old Woman into creating the Earth. As of yet, the "experts" are rather silent on that one.

Tim

PS: jbondo, despite my skepticism, I still find the Bigfoot debate an interesting one!

Tim
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Re: This may change your perception of Bigfoot forever!

Postby You Can Call Me Ray » Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:13 pm

jbondo wrote:It's hard to believe when you look at it like you do and I respect your views but what about the thousands upon thousands of sightings? As I said, even if 1% of those are actual encounters.....


I understand the power of suggestion inherent in such numbers. But supposition based on a high count of what amounts to heresay (and without evidence, that is the best you can call such reported sightings) is just not a scientific approach. And that is all I continue to press for: sticking to science and not allowing unsupported speculation to creep in. Each case must be taken on its own merits, and the merits that matter most are objective evidence.

A tendency that actually hurts more than it helps is something we see in the "true believer proseletyzers" in the UFO community: The tendency to want to pass judgment on people who reported sightings as being trustworthy. That takes us further away from science, because now we are allowing one person's judgment call to muddy the waters and try to bias other people to accept that this person could not have been mistaken in what they saw. Some people honestly do not mean harm in adding such editorials to reports of what other people reported seeing. However, it is quite clear that others purposefully do this, at almost every juncture, to try to convince people. A person I have seen do this a lot who should certainly know better is Tim Ventura. In nearly every article he has written where he interviews someone making a claim, Tim will include his "and he is a really great guy who I have no reason to disbelieve." But the people who have to be the hands-down worst when it comes to purposefully employing this tactic are the yo-yos behind Project Camelot (Bill Ryan and Kerry Cassidy). It is part of their mantra for all their interviews and articles. You can find this tactic in every one.

I don't know why we haven't found bones, I just don't know. Maybe there is something about this particular species that causes the bones to disintegrate over time.


And maybe all BF's are watched over by fairy gnomes who whisk away their remains to the planet Necromiton immediately after death. I am not poking fun at you, I am using an extreme example to point out that, given the evidence in hand (zero), there is an equal probability for my wild supposition as for your more mundane supposition.

I learned this lesson through many aircraft accident investigations. My mentors drilled it into my head that you simply NEVER introduce suppositions, such as yours, which have NO objective evidence to back them. It lessens the quality of the investigation. Rather, you allow the data you have in hand to speak for itself. And if you have two pieces of evidence/data that have a common theme, then and only then does it become acceptable to state a testable theory which both pieces of data support. And even then, that is not the only theory... we would try to flesh-out ALL potential theories which the data-in-hand-support. And once a new piece of evidence comes in that contradicts any tentative theory, that theory gets scratched off the list.

Here is an example from the MD-11 Swissair crash near Halifax, Nova Scotia: In reviewing the flight data recorder for data related to the flight control computer (my system on the airplane), I noted that we got "fail flags" for several pieces of data associated with analog sensors on the airplane. The thing they all had in common was they were synchro devices, and all excited by the same type of AC power from the flight control computers. Rather than jumping to a conclusion, I went looking for more data to form a theory. I started by tracing where the power comes from the circuit breaker in the flight deck area before it goes to the flight control computer, and then on to the sensors. As it turned out, these circuit breakers were right next to circuit breakers that corresponded to OTHER failures we saw on the flight recorder data at the same time (unrelated to the flight control computer). Two independent pieces of data were pointing to the same physical area of the airplane. The tentative theory was then that these circuit breakers popped (opened) at about the same time, which was only minutes before things started to go very badly. The next piece of data we found further confirmed the proposition: We got drawings from Swissair related to an after-production installation of a video gaming/gambling system they had put into the airplane after they took delivery from us at McDonnell-Douglas. As it turns out, the "spare circuit breaker" they elected to use to power this non-essential gaming system was right there, in the exact same panel, and less than 12 inches away from the breakers that we theorized popped at the onset of the event. Strike 2. Later, we were actually able to recover that panel and the wiring behind it. Clear and unmistakeable evidence of fire was strike 3. As our investigation progressed, we found more and more evidence that not only confirmed the theory, but ZERO evidence that falsified it.

If you do not approach things this way, you are not helping the investigation. Indeed, you are actually lowering the quality of the investigation.

Just my thoughts,
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Re: This may change your perception of Bigfoot forever!

Postby jbondo » Wed Jun 23, 2010 6:50 pm

Ray,

I am by no means disagreeing with you on your very valid points and do realize that things have to be done from a scientific/analytical approach. As I said, I need much, much more to allow belief just as you do. Jumping to conclusions would be foolhardy. As you notice, I never finished that sentence on the 1%. I don't see it as power of suggestion though because the definition being projected is debatable. The possibility that there's something to those few has to be given enough respect to look a little deeper. Science has to start somewhere. Even hearsay gains credibility based on who is doing the reporting but that's not to say that every alleged trustworthy individual is seeing what they think they see. Again, a thorough investigation is necessary no matter who is telling the story. Even science is guilty of filling in gaps of unknown with hearsay. One thing I will confess is I never felt that the lie detector tests on MQ proved anything other than the people really believed they saw what they saw. If there is a case of mistaken ID (which IMO happens more than one might think) it's obviously not likely to show up as a lie.

To address your aircraft accident investigation example: I work in the field of nanotechnology and currently trying to develop a drug delivery system for cancer research. If I accepted things on a superficial level I'd probably be out of work. However, with subjects such as we are discussing today, sometimes supposition is all you have to begin the investigation.

Tim,

You bring up many classic arguments and references. I believe the site you are looking for is the BFRO reporting database: http://www.bfro.net/GDB/
Furthermore, more than a few of those are fictitious IMO. By the way, is this the one to which you are referring?
http://www.bfro.net/GDB/show_report.asp?id=2782

Bigfoot investigators have hypothesized the following over the years:

Bigfoot is said to live in small family groups.
There may be as many as 3 different variations of the species in North America
Bigfoot is said to be a migratory animal and these patterns seem to follow heavy rainfall areas.
If passing thru a more populous area that provides little food Bigfoot is thought to scavenge for food just like bears and raccoons, in dumpsters and garbage cans.

As for MQ, I don't mean to be critical but outside of Jeff Meldrum I found their investigation practices to be haphazard and just plain bad at times. Regarding Native Americans, there are in fact many tribes that view Bigfoot as a real living animal.

Gentlemen, what really excited me and prompted this thread was the the analysis in the video. When I see some good work done (parts of the American Paranormal analysis) I have to play devils advocate. It's a rarity to see something that's not made strictly for entertainment value. However, I am also excited to see some well thought out viewpoints.
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Re: This may change your perception of Bigfoot forever!

Postby Tim Hebert » Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:16 pm

jbondo, that is the correct link to the Alpine, CA sighting.

Thanks,

Tim
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Re: This may change your perception of Bigfoot forever!

Postby Chorlton » Mon Jun 28, 2010 4:32 pm

This entire thread is a prime example of why I dont bother any more.

When you have to start pointing out the obvious to people you know youre on a hiding to nothing.
Banging one's head against a brick wall is far more satisfying
I have become that which I always despised and feared........Old !

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Re: This may change your perception of Bigfoot forever!

Postby Tim Hebert » Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:07 am

Chorlton wrote:This entire thread is a prime example of why I dont bother any more.

When you have to start pointing out the obvious to people you know youre on a hiding to nothing.
Banging one's head against a brick wall is far more satisfying


Satisfying? I would rather think that it would hurt like hell.

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Re: This may change your perception of Bigfoot forever!

Postby Chorlton » Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:03 am

Tim Hebert wrote:
Chorlton wrote:This entire thread is a prime example of why I dont bother any more.

When you have to start pointing out the obvious to people you know youre on a hiding to nothing.
Banging one's head against a brick wall is far more satisfying


Satisfying? I would rather think that it would hurt like hell.

Tim


Agreed Tim, but ultimately still more satisfying than having to go over and over, ad infinitum, some of the most well known hoaxes.
I fully expect to see someone soon, somewhere posting "Hey ! You guys know something happened at Roswell, right"?
Ah, Im getting old I suppose, and tired after a week at Glastonbury.
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Re: This may change your perception of Bigfoot forever!

Postby gunter » Tue Jun 29, 2010 5:02 pm

Hey ! You guys know something happened at Roswell, right?
consider everything/ believe nothing
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Re: This may change your perception of Bigfoot forever!

Postby Tim Hebert » Tue Jun 29, 2010 5:58 pm

gunter wrote:Hey ! You guys know something happened at Roswell, right?


Roswell? Project Mogul (spelling?), weather balloons, etc.

Roswell's army air field, changed to Walker AFB, big SAC bomb wing and Atlas ICBM wing. Three Atlas Launch Complex destroyed, in seperate incidents, due to problems during fueling exercises.

So, yeah, alot of crap happened at Roswell!

Tim

PS: jbondo started this thread about Bigfoot video. As to my knowledge, there were no sightings of Bigfoot near Roswell.
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Re: This may change your perception of Bigfoot forever!

Postby ryguy » Tue Jun 29, 2010 7:56 pm

There's also the theory that it was an event related to the testing of other high altitude balloons, not the project they claim it was but another - related to the nuclear propulsion proposals the U.S. was looking into at the time. It's actually my current pet theory that it was several crashes with real bodies related to experiments so horrible (ethically) that they can't declassify. Far beyond the human radiation experiments that have already been declassified.

But no - the whole UFO alien crash crap is by far a convenient myth that helps protect and cover up the truth.
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