The responsibility of forums regarding the vulnerable

[RICH-ENGLAND]

Hi m0r.

usually i would not name the people in question and publicly state my opinion on their mental health, but as for judy faltskog and alison kruse they are reasonably well known on the net and although im obviously not qualified to diagnose these people, its fairly obvious due to some very public behaviour and other things, that these two people have some kind of problem.

mrs faltskog is a very public pathological liar amongst other things and alison kruse regularly endangers the lives of pilots, passengers and anyone on the ground that could hypothetically be affected if she caused a plane crash with her laser pointing antics. now we all know that its highly dangerous and illegal to do what she does and that nobody that has a clear mind would do.

so my reasoning for naming these two is that i feel they are a very real danger to themselves and others and that hopefully it will stop people encouraging them.

but on the other hand, i wouldn't name the other person i mentioned as hes not already a public name and i wouldn't want to set him off in any way by naming him.

thanks

rich

[chrLz]

They say one should never post 'me too!!!!' comments on forums, that add nothing much but encouragement. So here's mine! ;D

Mor1arty, you have absolutely nailed it, and elucidated it in fine fashion. I tips me 'at to ya.

I do think our society is so self absorbed that it is not noticing the huge societal problems that are oncoming - fast - from our new technology/media driven age, where communication is instant, uncontrolled, uncensored and anonymous.

Yes, every generation moans about how society is going to hell, but one day they will be right... There's the old story of the guy who fell from the top of the Empire State Building and as he passed the tenth floor was heard to yell "I'm OK so far!!"

[m0r1arty]

so my reasoning for naming these two is that i feel they are a very real danger to themselves and others and that hopefully it will stop people encouraging them.

Hey Rich,

I think I left myself open to interpretation a little there replying to you and Access Denied.

They made the public statements and so have made it clear to the world who they are, which allowed casual investigations to pull up more on them. There is nothing wrong with you naming those who have made themselves be the centre of attention as a citation or as a warning. I have never seen you blast mental instability itself - just those who seek to benefit from the naivety of others and I thoroughly applaud you for that.

It could also be construed that I was slightly countering Access Denied in my reply too. I hope it is clear that I was taking a concept which we'd both helped hatch from formation and expanding upon it. Reading over it though to try and understand Rich's quoted post though did make me perceive a potential slight which wasn't intended.

chrLz I'm glad you think I nailed it. Cheers!

I think every generation has got progress to deal with which is good and bad. It's just with globalisation being the immense and unstoppable beast that it is we are balancing the fate of our entire species on it working - which, using trend analysis, it isn't. Will humanity survive? Probably in one shape or form, but it could potentially change things in ways we can't imagine and should be responsible enough for just now whilst we still can.

It's been a good day for this thread

-=m0r

[Luck]

Thanks for all the interesting stuff to ponder.

I put it to you that Jared Loughner was the product of a isolated, drug fuelled, over-controlled, media hype frenzied consumerist society which cannot continue to exist in it's current state without destroying itself. His self-efficacy led him to conspiracy sites which did not supply the answers his brain was begging for to allow for the propagation of his species and instead adopted answers which weren't directed at him or his incapable way of asking questions (another by-product of his society) which formed into the concept to kill.

Personally, I think it is more a commentary on the state of mental health care here in the U.S. and the stigma associated with being diagnosed and treated for a mental disorder. Which is made even worse if you are poor, lacking health insurance, elderly or disabled.

Not to mention the fact that some mental disorders are going to be more challenging to treat. 15-50% of those with psychotic disorders discontinue treatment or refuse treatment altogether. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2559919/)
Some patients are able to give an outward appearance of normalcy for short periods of time; they may even be capable of deceit during evaluation and treatment.

Delusional disorder is challenging to treat for various reasons, including patients' frequent denial that they have any problem, especially of a psychological nature, difficulties in developing a therapeutic alliance, and social/interpersonal conflicts.

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/292991-overview

Had he been born on a tropical island with friends, social amusements, little stress, a good diet and a history of family members or neighbours performing feats of brilliance being recounted at festivals and gatherings would he still have cracked?

It is a distinct possibility, but what if it is genetic and he was predisposed toward presenting symptoms as a young adult no matter his lifestyle and stress levels?
It is just as possible that had he been born 5,000 years he might have become the village medicine man or temple priest.

I still stipulate that conspiracy sites and other fringe sites which attract inquisitive and potentially vulnerable minds should be held accountable for what their membership doles out as factual and/or acceptable forms of revolution. Now the higher ranking the site (and the revenue due to that business model) the easier to find. Either distribute that revenue into a proper monitoring and quality control system which flushes out parasitic members and lunatic stories whilst maintaining a clear culture of abstract discussion on all things conspiratorial or use that revenue to line the pockets of lawyers to represent you when what you reap what you sow.

So say that these forums were doing what you just suggested....there are still tons of websites out there from organizations and cults that he could have gravitated to; neo-Nazis, militia, fringe conspiracy blogs...ad naseaum.

And are people like Jared Loughton really more vulnerable than the rest of us? Or did the presence of a mental illness just make him more dangerous?
Considering a person is more likely to join a cult if he/she:

1. Is from an economically sound family background.
2. Has average to above average intelligence.
3. Has a good education.
4. Is idealistic.

http://www.cultinformation.org.uk/article_cult-concerns.html

Maybe the ones truly at risk are the rest of us.

[Access Denied]

Luck, those are some excellent questions and points you raise.

[ponders]

It could also be construed that I was slightly countering Access Denied in my reply too. I hope it is clear that I was taking a concept which we'd both helped hatch from formation and expanding upon it. Reading over it though to try and understand Rich's quoted post though did make me perceive a potential slight which wasn't intended.

Not at all, I think your reply helped define the practical limits of the tropical island analogy… at risk of the inevitable descent into anarchy and war, it needs to be populated with enough folks who recognize naïve idealism for what it is and have the ability to leverage existing knowledge (Codified in Science) and the wisdom to embrace lessons learned from the past (Codified in Law) in order to help achieve more favorable outcomes in times of personal or community crisis.

No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.
- John Donne, Meditation XVII, Devotions upon Emergent Occasions (1623)

Now who’s rambling?

[m0r1arty]

Now who’s rambling?

Yeah but that's quality rambling!!

-m0r

[jjflash]

I have not yet been able to directly link Norman to any particular alien abduction researchers, irrationally pro-ETH websites, UFO-related public meetings, or similar such circumstances. If any of you know of such circumstances in Norman's case, I would very much appreciate a heads up.

There is a pretty good description of the events leading up to the incident in the court ruling that overturned his death sentence. According to the description of events, there was a lot happening in this guy's life, but no mention of an increased and sustained interest in the fringes (forums, authors, etc.). Apparently he was already acting erratically (behavior aggravated by drug use) before watching an episode of the X-Files that became the basis for his delusions regarding aliens. The docs can be found here:http://courts.delaware.gov/opinions/%280d4zy355zwqwbg55jk32a055%29/download.aspx?ID=123140

Thank you, Luck. I appreciate your interest in the Norman case and referencing a credible source of trial documentation.

[Luck]

Thank you, Luck. I appreciate your interest in the Norman case and referencing a credible source of trial documentation.

No problem. Sometimes all you have to do is ask (the google) and you shall receive.

I find myself still pondering this thread during odd moments of the day. I do know Jung thought the phenomenon has definite psychological significance, although it escapes me at this point. (I have the book, I just haven't had a chance to read it yet.)

....usually i would not name the people in question and publicly state my opinion on their mental health, but as for judy faltskog and alison kruse they are reasonably well known on the net and although im obviously not qualified to diagnose these people, its fairly obvious due to some very public behaviour and other things, that these two people have some kind of problem.

I also had a sketchy idea, what if most "seekers" of ufo/paranormal/conspiracies stuff are really looking for a mythos of some sort without realizing it (some of whom are going to be less than stable). Maybe the factual truth become less important to them in their quest for a coherent narrative that gives them validation. I seem to remember Joseph Campbell saying something on this topic, but once again, it escapes me.

Now who’s rambling?

Yeah but that's quality rambling!!

-m0r

I'm afraid I have to agree with m0r here!!!!

[jjflash]

Yes, Jung used the term 'imaginal,' applying it to the UFO phenom and referring to a complex meshing of imaginary perceptions and real events taking place in an objective reality. As I interpret it, Jung was not entirely suggesting that labeling something 'imaginary' necessarily indicated it was a fantasy or delusion, but somewhat 'of the mind,' maybe like theories related to telekinesis or stigmata or something. So, basically, I think he was trying to say that one possible explanation for a certain percentage of bizarre UFO-related reports is that people unknowingly mentally manifest the events somehow, creating things in an objective reality that ultimately 'melt' back into where they came from. Thus 'imaginal,' a combination of imaginary and real.

I also had a sketchy idea, what if most "seekers" of ufo/paranormal/conspiracies stuff are really looking for a mythos of some sort without realizing it (some of whom are going to be less than stable). Maybe the factual truth become less important to them in their quest for a coherent narrative that gives them validation.

I don't think there is any doubt about it. A certain percentage of members of the UFO community are not the least interested in actuality, but only seek to validate their less than stable incorrect belief systems. Most concerning, in my opinion, is the extent that they so easily find such an abundance of ill conceived validation and false support within the UFO community.

[Luck]

Thanks jj. I appreciate your input on Jung. It is nice to know that I wasn't that far off in my thinking.

I don't think there is any doubt about it. A certain percentage of members of the UFO community are not the least interested in actuality, but only seek to validate their less than stable incorrect belief systems. Most concerning, in my opinion, is the extent that they so easily find such an abundance of ill conceived validation and false support within the UFO community.

Absolutely. It starts to turn into one vicious feedback loop. I pulled out Robert Cialdini's "Influence" to start reading again tonight (since some of what he talks about is herd mentality) and in his book he discusses social proof and conformity. Scary stuff when you start applying some of the concepts to the UFO community.

The principle of social proof says so: The greater the number of who find any idea correct, the more the idea will be correct.-Robert Cialdini

I had forgotten that Cialdini talks about cults (coincidentally, one of cults discussed is a doomsday UFO cult; the other is Jonestown) in his discussion of social proof. So I will probably be re-reading parts of his book in the next few weeks.

[jjflash]

I don't think there is any doubt about it. A certain percentage of members of the UFO community are not the least interested in actuality, but only seek to validate their less than stable incorrect belief systems. Most concerning, in my opinion, is the extent that they so easily find such an abundance of ill conceived validation and false support within the UFO community.

Absolutely. It starts to turn into one vicious feedback loop. I pulled out Robert Cialdini's "Influence" to start reading again tonight (since some of what he talks about is herd mentality) and in his book he discusses social proof and conformity. Scary stuff when you start applying some of the concepts to the UFO community.

This is actually a topic that I prioritize for many reasons, Luck. Suffice it to say that I strongly endorse the promotion of active and intentional efforts to learn more about critical thinking and to apply what is learned in practical contexts.

I have recently been browsing the website of the Foundation and Center for Critial Thinking, a U.S. nonprofit corporation dedicated to increasing critical thinking skills taught in the education system. I have found their articles and resources to be well presented, good reads. Among such articles is an interview from 1992, featuring educator and author Richard Paul. Paul addressed the very herd mentality you wrote about, Luck, when he quite accurately termed it 'collective bad thinking' and 'collaborative mis-learning,' explaining some of its negative aspects:

Collaborative learning is desirable only if grounded in disciplined critical thinking. Without critical thinking, collaborative learning is likely to become collaborative mis-learning. It is collective bad thinking in which the bad thinking being shared becomes validated. Remember, gossip is a form of collaborative learning; peer group indoctrination is a form of collaborative learning; mass hysteria is a form of speed collaborative learning (mass learning of a most undesirable kind). We learn prejudices collaboratively, social hates and fears collaboratively, stereotypes and narrowness of mind, collaboratively. If we don't put disciplined critical thinking into the heart and soul of the collaboration, we get the mode of collaboration which is antithetical to education, knowledge, and insight.

Full article:

http://www.criticalthinking.org/aboutCT ... nswers.cfm

[Luck]

jj,
Interesting article. My husband is a former educator and would appreciate this. I think he was relieved that he was already out of the profession once "No Child Left Behind" was enacted; he really did not want to be a player in that train wreck. He was (and still is) a proponent of teaching students how to learn since that is the one skill they can take with them no matter where they go in life.

I just happened to pull my social psychology texts off the bookcase today to add to my current reading pile. I was just flipping through one and came across this passage:

People attempt to function as naive scientists. In order to arrive at the best explanation for a given event or phenomenon, scientists look for covariation in their data---that is, they attempt to find cases where "X came before Y and always varied with Y and only with Y to conclude that X caused Y." Similarly, in explaining other people's behavior, people look for three pieces of information: the consistency of the person's action (Does he or she always behave in this manner in other situations and at other times?), consensus (Do others behave in the same way in the same situation?), and/or the distinctiveness of the action (Is he or she the only one to behave in this manner?).
....However, rational thought requires at least two conditions: (1) the thinker has access to accurate, useful information, and (2) the thinker has the mental resources needed to process life's data. These conditions almost never hold in everyday life.

The Social Animal by Elliot Aronson

[jjflash]

Münchausen by internet: the sick world of the internet fakers

Why would someone feign a serious illness online? Jenny Kleeman on the strange world of Münchausen by internet.

April 19, 2011

[...]

(Mandy) Wilson is one of a growing number of people who pretend to suffer illness and trauma to get sympathy from online support groups. Think of the characters portrayed by Edward Norton and Helena Bonham Carter in Fight Club, only these support groups are virtual, and the people deceived are real. From cancer forums to anorexia websites, LiveJournal to Mumsnet, trusting communities are falling victim to a new kind of online fraud, one in which people are scammed out of their time and emotion instead of their money. The fakers have nothing to gain from their lies - except attention.

These aren't just people with a sick sense of humour. Jokers want a quicker pay-off than this kind of hoax could ever provide. It requires months of sophisticated research to develop and sustain a convincing story, as well as a team of fictitious personas to back up the web of deceit. Psychiatrists say the lengths to which people like Wilson are prepared to go mean their behaviour is pathological, a disorder rather than simply an act of spite. The irony is these people might actually be classed as ill - just not in the way they claim to be.

Some psychiatrists have started using the term Münchausen by internet (MBI) to describe this behaviour. Whereas Münchausen syndrome requires physically acting out symptoms to get attention from doctors, online scammers just have to be able to describe them convincingly. There's a limitless audience of sympathetic ears, and success can be quantified by the number of concerned emails and message-board posts generated by their lies.

Full article:

http://www.theage.com.au/technology/tec ... 1dm9l.html

[m0r1arty]

In light of the first day of Anders Behring Breivik's court case being opened I thought it would be good to return to the responsibility of forums and what they ply their membership with.

There's a superb article by Raffaello Pantucci discussing 'lone wolf' or 'lone actors' within terrorist fields which focusses on many aspects of his identity and motivation but highlights how the internet can concrete radical ideas into actions. Well worth a look.

There is plenty of evidence of his postings which can be found easily due to (this - which is a list of some of his aliases (Semi quoted below in case of deletion)...:

andersnordic - youtube.com
Conservatism - World of Warcraft - Silvermoon-server (A)
Conservative - World of Warcraft - Silvermoon-server (H)
Anders Behring Breivik - Facebook
anderson - gaysir.no
year2083@gmail.com - gmail-konto
Anders Berwick - Engelsk variant
Sigurd (the crusader) - kodenavn innenfor PCCTS
Morg - Graffiti/tagge-navn
anderson - hegnar.no
AndersBBreivik - Twitterkonto
anders.behring @hotmail.com - hotmail-konto
Sigurd Jorsalfare - EDL
Breivik Geofarm - Skalkeskjulsbedrift
BEHRING & KERNER MARKETING DA - Bedriften han drev da han var yngre antakeligvis


Svart- Kontoer vi kan være relativt eller fullstendig sikre på at ABB er bak.
Lilla - Midt i mellom
Rød - Kontoer som har vage indikasjoner av at de er laget av ABB.

Oppdatert - fjernet uio og stklippen

The fact that he shot nearly two hundred people, killing 80 or so of them, having already exploded a bomb in Oslo's city centre, fuelled by his radical notions going unchecked online strengthens my point that forums must be held accountable for the content their users generate and they profit from.

Now whilst ATS member Sigurd may just be an innocent, inquisitive person - the volume of b.s. on the site he's a member of needs to come with legal punishments to ensure that more innocents don't get killed by 'allowing' any topic to be discussed with the notion that it could be correct and 'censoring' critical though which would drench those flames of idiocy with facts.

Any more for any more regarding bona fide 'nutjobs' and their affiliation with dangerous fantasy publishers?

Be nice to send a list to the press, if not the families of those who have been killed.

-m0r