What do you think about the death penalty?

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Postby dankk » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:51 pm

GodessOne wrote:Healthy dialog between individuals always stems from the mutual objective of understanding - never teaching.


even within the scope of thiS one statement you made. tHere is leArning involved. to understand another is to learn from another in such a Way that is would create uNderstanding. There caN be no understAnding without first learning. understanding implies learning. learning implies teaching.

Regards,

Dankk
Last edited by dankk on Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby dankk » Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:12 pm

Ryguy,

Your post was great. I liked the way you showed how it can go either way in regards to the death penatly being in place. It is true that there are truly too many factors to be able to ammicably discern wether or not it is as effective as i believe it to be.

I do truly believe this; Without it, there would be those out there that would be more inclined to kill knowing that they would not be treated in kind. Even if that amount of people are near negligible in numbers per census, there would still be murders commited on the basis that there would not be the eye-for-an-eye result.

I mentioned that it is a tool used for deterrence, not a solution. The more tools used to keep one human from killing another is a good thing imo.

Lastly, I was looking for what people thought about this deterrent and I am getting some really great replies. Lets all try to keep on track with the topic and allow for opinions to be stated without trying to use a subjective approach to change the minds of the participants. Because we have opposing views in this subject, it means that we are indeed different. This is healthy. Thanks again for your participation.

Regards,

Dankk
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Postby kiwicocky » Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:47 am

dankk wrote:I do truly believe this; Without it, there would be those out there that would be more inclined to kill knowing that they would not be treated in kind. Even if that amount of people are near negligible in numbers per census, there would still be murders commited on the basis that there would not be the eye-for-an-eye result.



Following your line of reasoning there would be more likelihood of civilian eye-for-an-eye treatment in kind, after all no-one has to fear the death penalty?

I can tell you for a fact, living in a country that does not have the death penalty, this is not correct.

Thanks for the link, I followed it to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... urder_rate

But there does not seem to be a list that incorporates those who practise capital punishment and those who don't with the murder rates. Ry's post was interesting. I agree re evil breeds more evil.

I noticed your interest also in the abortion debate, and wonder if you are aware of this report?

Murder is the leading cause of pregnancy-associate injury deaths in the United States and black women are especially at risk, three times more likely to be murdered than pregnant white women.

Researchers from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported in the American Journal of Public Health between 1991 and 1999 that 617 injury-related deaths of pregnant women, or 31 percent, were the result of homicide.

Of the murdered pregnant women, 56 percent were shot to death while the rest were either stabbed or strangled. Of the 4,200 pregnancy-related deaths included in the study, 1,993 were caused by injury, rather than pregnancy complications.


http://crime.about.com/b/a/149237.htm

Can't find the original link I read that on :(


Dankk why are you spelling Shawnna's name in that post to GoddessOne? I note you spell it correctly there and other places you've done the same thing, but incorrectly in a post directly ref her name?
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Postby I.P.Freely » Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:38 am

Considering that there is no decrease in murders when death is used as a punishment . And considering that history shows innocent people are sometimes
wrongly convicted of murders they did not do. That It would seem logical that the death penalty has no place in a civilized sociaty. Now if we can only become civilized we would be getting somewhere.
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Postby I.P.Freely » Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:57 am

dankk wrote:Ryguy,



I do truly believe this; Without it, there would be those out there that would be more inclined to kill knowing that they would not be treated in kind. Even if that amount of people are near negligible in numbers per census, there would still be murders commited on the basis that there would not be the eye-for-an-eye result.

I mentioned that it is a tool used for deterrence, not a solution. The more tools used to keep one human from killing another is a good thing imo.

Lastly, I was looking for what people thought about this deterrent and I am getting some really great replies. Lets all try to keep on track with the topic and allow for opinions to be stated without trying to use a subjective approach to change the minds of the participants. Because we have opposing views in this subject, it means that we are indeed different. This is healthy. Thanks again for your participation.

Regards,

Dankk


I think if I was given the choice of spending the rest of my life as a caged animal . Or be relieved of this body and the life that was given to it . I think I,d rather just move on. But I believe in reincarnation so would rather die then be caged. And so in at least my case life in prison is the only deterent that keeps me from killing you Dankk....just kidding
And of course not everyone would feel this way in fact I would believe it would be the view in the minority. And I can believe that death is a deterent to some people . But until you can be assured no innocent people are executed the death penalty is really a crime within its self. If that Innocent person were you would you still hold the same opinion on the death penalty?
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Postby Serpentime » Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:48 am

Hello everyone,


These are my thoughts on “The Death Penalty”. They are my thoughts only.


As best I understand:


“Capital Punishment” is neither an expression of Justice, Vengeance, Revenge, nor Deterrence.

Rather – instead – it is a simple affirmation of Moral Fidelity by a just society that wishes to uphold Good over Evil.

That which promotes the purposes of Life is Good, while that which transgresses against them and inflicts harm is Evil.

To that end, those amongst us who willingly commit acts of murder and depravity against the blameless may be properly identified as Parasites – or those who intentionally prey on the Good Body of others.



Should we truly value the innate Goodness of Life, then we must find within ourselves the moral courage to defend the dignity of Life by necessary means – and the moral will to repudiate that which would debase Life in vain, and self-serving, disregard with an equally forceful prejudice.


For a society of Life to remain meaningful, it must stand unequivocally –and unflinchingly – for the sanctity of all that is Goodness.

Hence, from those who commit the ultimate crime of murder, the ultimate penalty must be extracted.


This is a simple statement of principle, nothing more.



It is no crime to eliminate a parasite.

Rather, in fact, it is quintessentially moral.



Evil must be opposed.



Again, my thoughts and opinion,

Serpentime



> Thanks to dankk for the excellent topic. :)

> And Welcome to GodessOne. Love and Light to you also. :)
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Postby ryguy » Thu Nov 09, 2006 5:31 am

Hello Serpentime! Glad to see you join the fray. ;)

Eloquent post - and I agree in principle with the statement that a just society must uphold good over evil. However...there is a contradiction in terms here....

Rather – instead – it is a simple affirmation of Moral Fidelity by a just society that wishes to uphold Good over Evil.


vs. this:

That which promotes the purposes of Life is Good, while that which transgresses against them and inflicts harm is Evil.


That which transgresses against the purposes of Life, is evil. Therefore upholding good over evil by transgressing against the purposes of life ourselves is an oxymoron. There is no "good" inherent in any taking of any life, regardless of the value any one of us place on that life. What place is it of ours to place value on life - there is only one who has that right - the one who gave that life in the first place.


To that end, those amongst us who willingly commit acts of murder and depravity against the blameless may be properly identified as Parasites – or those who intentionally prey on the Good Body of others.


Again - one can not defend the dignity of Life if one will define a Life as a parasite. Who are we to cast such stones... are we "civil"? Are we "just"? Or are we simply terrified of the innate evil that rises up from our own ranks from time to time - when the raw face of humanity itself rears its ugly head and shows its fallacy against the goodness that is God - creation - Life.

The bible says Peter denied Jesus three times. Humanity has denied the dignity of life in many ways many more times - not just murder. We are inherently human - that is, we are base instinct, raw potential for evil....and that which transcends us above simply being "human" is Life, Goodness, and Divine Awareness.

Some fall far short of the glory of that creation - but we did not create life, therefore we have no earthly right to define its value, or take it away.

It is no crime to eliminate a parasite.

Rather, in fact, it is quintessentially moral.


Again - who are we to define a Life as a parasite? Who are we to believe we have an unflinching and infallable ability to define a Life, and to succeed in any judgement 100% of the time. Because that is what is necessary. The first innocent life we remove from this earth because we failed in casting judgement....giving ourselves power over Life is bad enough - failing even once, and inadvertently taking an innocent life is unforgiveable. And our society already has the blood of many innocent souls on our hands.

Evil must be opposed.


On that - we can agree. ;)

Cheers Serpentime - hang your coat up by the door - we've got the fire going and the kettle is on. Have a seat and take a load off. :)

Hang around a bit. This might get interesting.

-Ry
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Postby Almeirhria » Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:18 am

And so the days continue as man strives to define his brother ever more with the illusion of ultimate power whilst neglecting healing the sickness they both share.
Those truly helpless are those who have not consciously chosen but who repeat patterns without knowledge of the repetition or the meaning of the pattern
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Postby Zep Tepi » Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:11 pm

On the contrary Al, there are many people who are striving to understand why some people carry out the acts they do. There are also many instances where those such people have examined offenders and declared them to be "cured" of whatever it was that made them offend in the first place - only for the "cured" to then go back into society and either reoffend or commit even worse acts. I.e. Sex offenders who go on to kill.

Let's also not forget that everyone has a choice in life. People who kill and rape have made a conscious choice to do so. IMO there can be no excuses for those people who make such a choice, none whatsoever.

Cheers,
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Postby ScaRZ » Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:35 pm

Zep Tepi wrote:On the contrary Al, there are many people who are striving to understand why some people carry out the acts they do. There are also many instances where those such people have examined offenders and declared them to be "cured" of whatever it was that made them offend in the first place - only for the "cured" to then go back into society and either reoffend or commit even worse acts. I.e. Sex offenders who go on to kill.

Let's also not forget that everyone has a choice in life. People who kill and rape have made a conscious choice to do so. IMO there can be no excuses for those people who make such a choice, none whatsoever.

Cheers,
Zep


Two Thumbs Up Zep!
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Postby dankk » Thu Nov 09, 2006 6:41 pm

And to follow up on what Zep wrote,

When those conscious choices are made knowiing full well what the consequences are and have been for a very long time. There is no excuse to not use the deterrents set in place when the foolish choices have been made with blatent disregard of the consequence that will follow.

~Dankk
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Postby I.P.Freely » Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:26 am

dankk at that point thet in not a deterent just a means of eliminating the problem
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Postby GoddessOne » Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:00 am

I.P.Freely wrote:dankk at that point thet in not a deterent just a means of eliminating the problem



Absolutely, I.P.Freely - I've always loved this relevant saying.....

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Postby Serpentime » Fri Nov 10, 2006 8:28 am

Hi all,


For a Snake in a Tree, it’s easy to hang around… :)


In my humble opinion, “Capital Punishment” has always provided a most revealing, worthwhile, and provocative platform for debate.


And so far, in this thread, I have not been disappointed. :)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ry,


Your response to my strong statements is eloquent, also. :)

As I admire your own deep devotion to the purposes of Life, I must admit that I closely anticipated your thoughts (I believe) while I was posting my own.

Please correct me if I am mistaken, but your issues at hand involve the matters of: 1.) “Judgment”; and 2.) the “Morality of Killing”.


As always, these are my thoughts alone, but perhaps these clarifications may assist in the understanding of my positions for any of the readers who might be interested.


Let me begin with the “Morality of Killing”:


ryguy wrote:That which transgresses against the purposes of Life, is evil. Therefore upholding good over evil by transgressing against the purposes of life ourselves is an oxymoron. There is no "good" inherent in any taking of any life, regardless of the value any one of us place on that life.



I understand completely why you might sense a contradiction in my words – and I sense, more broadly, why you may not be the only person who does – but to me, the matter is clear, if not quietly nuanced.


Remember, for purposes of “punishment”, that the “Death Penalty” most often accrues to the crime of “Murder”.

To that end, let us define the term “Murder”:


“Murder” (as I understand it) constitutes “the taking of Life (or ‘Killing’) without cause”.


The term “State Sanctioned Killing” is often, also, equated with “Murder”, if I am not mistaken?


Yet is there any Killing, at all, that may somehow be justified – and hence excluded as “Murder”?


To me, the answer is YES: and that exception is Killing in Self-Defense. After all, isn’t the powerful instinct – if not mandate – bequeathed to us by God, to preserve-ourselves-against-harm, not crucial to the Divine Purpose of Life itself?


Look anywhere across the vast breadth of God’s Creation – from toxic bacteria to Poison Ivy, to Porcupine quills and Stingray barbs (Sorry, Steve Irwin…) to a Mother Bear’s razor claws, and the horns on a Bull, to your own Human body’s Lymphocytes and t-cells – and you will plainly observe the Divine sanction for self-defense that is written deeply into the fabric of God’s tapestry and Almighty Will.


Killing (or harming) those who would kill or harm us, is not “Murder” to my understanding, and appears by overwhelming preeminence to be one of God’s Holiest commandments, as well.


As originally proscribed in the Torah, Commandment Number Six read (with nuance):

”Thou Shalt not Murder, instead of ”Thou Shalt not Kill”, as it was later amended by the Christian Church.


Recall, also that Yeshua the Christ – himself a Hebrew – was a passionate advocate of “Capital Punishment”.



To the less informed, this admonition – spoken aloud by the Son of God, King of Peace, Love, Compassion, Empathy, and Forgiveness, Himself – may sound outrageous and contradictory as well, yet behold:


”Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me; but whoever causes one of these little ones who believes in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world for temptation to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the man by whom the temptation comes!”

Matthew 18: 5-7


Yes, you read that passage correctly. And it is also repeated, nearly verbatim, in the Book of Mark.


No mistake.


Clearly, Jesus is telling us that the killing of those who would harm the Good Body of society (represented in eloquence by its most precious essence: its children) is a morally acceptable alternative to allowing the wicked to commit mortal sins against the innocent.


To me, there is no contradiction here. And although Jesus does not use the term “Parasite” in his vernacular; with equally clarity, his Moral inference is substantially the same.


Killing in self-defense is moral.


And sometimes, perhaps, there can be no greater Love than the steadfast hatred of Evil.



ryguy wrote:Who are we to cast such stones... are we "civil"? Are we "just"?


Almeirhria wrote:And so the days continue as man strives to define his brother ever more with the illusion of ultimate power whilst neglecting healing the sickness they both share.



As Jesus also suggested, the truly righteous do not judge:


”Judge not, that you be not judged.”

Matthew 7:1


But it is not the acts of the righteous that ajudicate a man (or a woman) to be a sinner; rather it is the acts of that man (or woman) himself (or herself):

Zep Tepi wrote:Let's also not forget that everyone has a choice in life. People who kill and rape have made a conscious choice to do so. IMO there can be no excuses for those people who make such a choice, none whatsoever.



Yes, it is Judgment that defeats us (Like Marlon Brando once said…), but judgment is not required here: only seeing what there is to be done and doing it...

”Clearly…, focused..., eyes open..., facing forward…, awake…”


dankk wrote: When those conscious choices are made knowiing full well what the consequences are and have been for a very long time. There is no excuse to not use the deterrents set in place when the foolish choices have been made with blatent disregard of the consequence that will follow.



”Without Judgment, without Judgment…”

-- Marlon Brando





Again,

My thoughts only…


Serpentime



>And thanks to everyone for the intelligent argument and debate. This is exactly why I choose to post at RU. :)
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Postby I.P.Freely » Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:12 am

Serpentime wrote:


Remember, for purposes of “punishment”, that the “Death Penalty” most often accrues to the crime of “Murder”.

To that end, let us define the term “Murder”:


“Murder” (as I understand it) constitutes “the taking of Life (or ‘Killing’) without cause”.


The term “State Sanctioned Killing” is often, also, equated with “Murder”, if I am not mistaken?


Yet is there any Killing, at all, that may somehow be justified – and hence excluded as “Murder”?


To me, the answer is YES: and that exception is Killing in Self-Defense. After all, isn’t the powerful instinct – if not mandate – bequeathed to us by God, to preserve-ourselves-against-harm, not crucial to the Divine Purpose of Life itself?


Look anywhere across the vast breadth of God’s Creation – from toxic bacteria to Poison Ivy, to Porcupine quills and Stingray barbs (Sorry, Steve Irwin…) to a Mother Bear’s razor claws, and the horns on a Bull, to your own Human body’s Lymphocytes and t-cells – and you will plainly observe the Divine sanction for self-defense that is written deeply into the fabric of God’s tapestry and Almighty Will.


I can somewhat agree on self defense not so much as being justified but certainly understandable. But not about killing as punishment. You must agree that there have and will be people who were completely innocent of the crime of murder who are executed. And since there is no possible way to stop this how can it be right to continue this kind of punishment no matter how small a percentage it may be. I know if you were one of those people you would not think as you do now .

Killing (or harming) those who would kill or harm us, is not “Murder” to my understanding, and appears by overwhelming preeminence to be one of God’s Holiest commandments, as well.


As originally proscribed in the Torah, Commandment Number Six read (with nuance):

”Thou Shalt not Murder, instead of ”Thou Shalt not Kill”, as it was later amended by the Christian Church.


Recall, also that Yeshua the Christ – himself a Hebrew – was a passionate advocate of “Capital Punishment”.



To the less informed, this admonition – spoken aloud by the Son of God, King of Peace, Love, Compassion, Empathy, and Forgiveness, Himself – may sound outrageous and contradictory as well, yet behold:


”Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me; but whoever causes one of these little ones who believes in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe to the world for temptation to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the man by whom the temptation comes!”

Matthew 18: 5-7


Yes, you read that passage correctly. And it is also repeated, nearly verbatim, in the Book of Mark.


No mistake.


Clearly, Jesus is telling us that the killing of those who would harm the Good Body of society (represented in eloquence by its most precious essence: its children) is a morally acceptable alternative to allowing the wicked to commit mortal sins against the innocent.


To me, there is no contradiction here. And although Jesus does not use the term “Parasite” in his vernacular; with equally clarity, his Moral inference is substantially the same.


I find that quite a streach It does not say to do that to the child , only that it would be better if it happened and its being used as an example to make a point. And you must remember that christ the lamb was the last sacrafice for our sins so all are sinless if your going to allow twisting of meanings

Killing in self-defense is moral.


And sometimes, perhaps, there can be no greater Love than the steadfast hatred of Evil.


I don,t know can you get light out of darkness so love from hate I,m not buying it.
At least its not the kind of love I want anything to do with.



Again,

My thoughts only…


Serpentime



>And thanks to everyone for the intelligent argument and debate. This is exactly why I choose to post at RU. :)


ditto IPF
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