What do you think about the death penalty?

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Postby Almeirhria » Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:52 am

No reply came close to my previous post.

There was no judgement - read again if necessary - unnecessary conclusions.

Sixth commandment....

You imprison yourself with fear - just as the Elite "insider" wrote last year, you live in a prison, yet those who do not believe/cannot see remain prisoners.
Those truly helpless are those who have not consciously chosen but who repeat patterns without knowledge of the repetition or the meaning of the pattern
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Postby ScaRZ » Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:26 pm

Serpentime wrote:

Yes, it is Judgment that defeats us (Like Marlon Brando once said…), but judgment is not required here: only seeing what there is to be done and doing it...



”Without Judgment, without Judgment…”

-- Marlon Brando








I love reading your post Serpentime, you get me thinking. I can tell you are a very deep person.
I see you are quoting from my favorite movie of all time,"Apocalypse Now". :wink:
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Postby ryguy » Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:00 pm

Almeirhria wrote:You imprison yourself with fear - just as the Elite "insider" wrote last year, you live in a prison, yet those who do not believe/cannot see remain prisoners.


Al - could you clarify who/what you're referring to here? I find that statement intriguing.... If you prefer a PM, that's fine too.

-Ry
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Postby Almeirhria » Sat Nov 11, 2006 3:22 am

Shawnna has transcripts, perhaps ask politely.

Other infrequent visitors may also have copies, the transcripts shouldn't be too difficult to find.
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Postby Serpentime » Sat Nov 11, 2006 8:10 am

Hi I.P.,

Thanks for your thoughts. :) I can see that you’ve picked out some excellent points for contention:

I.P.Freely wrote:I can somewhat agree on self defense not so much as being justified but certainly understandable. But not about killing as punishment.


My apologies.

The use of the word “punishment” was only a reluctant choice (and yes, I was waiting for someone to “pounce” on it… :) ), applied mainly for establishing the context of “Capital Punishment”, “Murder”, and “Self-Defense”, in the theater of “Criminal Justice” (another reluctant use of terminology) as opposed to “War”, for example, or other settings.

I honestly do not consider the “Death Penalty” as “punishment”, but more as an expression of basic Moral Concern, as my first post tried (perhaps inadequately) to convey.


As far as the concept of “justified" versus the concept of “understandable”, I do believe that I understand your point. But in return, I have a question for you:


Assume (as I do) that you, I.P. Freely, are a “Good” person. Therefore, should you choose – for whatever reason – to allow “Evil” to destroy you, has “Evil” not triumphed over “Good”?

Is it not more than “understandable” that such an outcome would not be morally acceptable from any perspective?


Therefore, can the defense of “Good” I.P. Freely somehow not rise to the level of “justified”?


Though it is my personal opinion only, I certainly feel that it does. :)



I.P.Freely wrote:You must agree that there have and will be people who were completely innocent of the crime of murder who are executed. …I know if you were one of those people you would not think as you do now.



Thank you very much for raising this very appropriate concern. :) I was anticipating this objection, also.

The essence of the question (as dankk posed it to us, I believe) relates to the morality of “Capital Punishment” as an appropriate response to those who are manifestly guilty of “Murder”; that is, that their guilt is clearly understood and recognized.

To be clear, my position assumes the existence of all due legal process and appeal. Should the “system” fail, this is a separate matter – distinct from the “justification” of the philosophical response.


Certainly, as you duly remind us, there have – and will continue to be – mistakes.


But if it were I who were condemned – and not the true perpetrator – then yes, I would agree, there would be a serious injustice:

Though my Life may be forfeit, the actual crime itself has gone unaccounted for.


And true “Evil” remains free to strike again.



Dying for the cause of greater principle may seem regrettable, but in this instance, I would – at least – understand and accept the greater need for my sacrifice.


I.P.Freely wrote:I find that quite a streach It does not say to do that to the child , only that it would be better if it happened and its being used as an example to make a point.


Jesus suggested that those who may cause harm to the child should be drowned.

And yes, this is clearly a parable. But Jesus certainly does not shrink from the idea of eliminating those who would selfishly and egregiously harm the common good, either.

Respectfully, I do not believe that I have twisted his meaning.


I.P.Freely wrote:I don,t know can you get light out of darkness so love from hate I,m not buying it.
At least its not the kind of love I want anything to do with


I.P., my friend, you have me there. :) “Hate” was a very inappropriate word for me to have used (if not only for dramatic and artistic effect).

“Hate”, strictly defined is “self-Love”, or love of the self (small ‘s’) over the Love of God.


I’d rather Love God, too. :)


Please substitute the word: “Repudiation”.


Almeirhria wrote:There was no judgement - read again if necessary - unnecessary conclusions.

Sixth commandment....

You imprison yourself with fear. …you live in a prison, yet those who do not believe/cannot see remain prisoners.



Hi Almeirhria,

Your phraseology of “define his brother” must have misled me to substitute the concept of “Judgment”, instead.

I respect your wisdom and regret any misunderstanding. Perhaps you could reiterate your meaning in greater detail?


And as for “Fear” being the “sickness they both share”, no truer words have ever been spoken, in my opinion.


You are absolutely correct:

To a Being endowed with the gift of Free Will, there is, indeed, no greater threat, or toxin, than "Fear".


To Love, or to Fear…

That is the question.


That is the choice.


ScaRZ wrote:I love reading your post Serpentime, you get me thinking. I can tell you are a very deep person.
I see you are quoting from my favorite movie of all time,"Apocalypse Now".



Thanks ScaRZ.

That’s a wonderful compliment. I truly appreciate it. :)

Other folks may agree with me, or not, but so long as I am blessed enough to give them something different to consider, I don’t see how I can go wrong.

Whatever their opinion, the final say will always be theirs to decide. :)


And yes, “Apocalypse Now” is my favorite movie of all time, too!

A very, very deep movie, in my personal opinion – and with a great many lessons to teach on many different levels, also.


As with Willard and Kurtz -- I too, detest nothing more than “the stench of lies…”




My Best to all;


I deeply appreciate Good people who care, :)



Serpentime
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Postby ryguy » Sat Nov 11, 2006 4:33 pm

Almeirhria wrote:Shawnna has transcripts, perhaps ask politely.

Other infrequent visitors may also have copies, the transcripts shouldn't be too difficult to find.


Okay...so are you saying the transcripts came from Shawnna? Or you've provided them to Shawnna but refuse to provide them to me?

-Ry
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Postby dankk » Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:30 am

Serpentime,


Your post have been very revealing. Also very well written indeed. :)

You have taken this subject and have done exactly as it should have been done. You have made your opinion known. You have stated why you choose this opinion. And you also said that the writings were your opinion only. This is all that I was looking for.

Very well done! The main point of the threads that I am starting is to get the mind to churn. The manner in which this discussion has taken place is nearly picture perfect. There has been no trolling, no insults, nothing bad. A very well behaved group of minds we have here indeed.

Everyone here should give themselves a pat on the back for the maturity and restraint used in such a tough/highly diverse topic. (I have more coming btw, ;) )

Please remember however, no one is required to explain their position in this thread, nor any other I create. Everyone has their own opinion regarding this subject and pretty much anything else... People can ask for clarification if they dont understand something, but challenging an opinion should be refrained from.

Thanks again for the posts, opinions, and wonderful exchange of ideas and thoughts here. This is what makes posting and debating fun. :) I say, carry on folks! Such intelligence and sharing of ideas should never be restrained. I cant tell you all how pleased I am to see mature debate and exchange taking place on some of the hotter topics. It speaks volumes about the character of the members here at RU! 8)

~Dankk
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Postby Almeirhria » Sun Nov 12, 2006 2:10 am

Shawnna received the information from me, there is no refusal Ry.
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Postby Serpentime » Sun Nov 12, 2006 2:28 am

Thanks, dankk.

My thoughts are a mirror image of your own.

While it is understandable that we might not all share a common position on such a controversial topic, the respectful debate that has ensued is a great credit to everyone involved, in my humble opinion.


If nothing else, the good membership of this board has certainly made me think.

And for that, I am grateful. :)


Best to you,

Serpentime
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Postby dankk » Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:35 pm

So everyone has their own opinion it seems about this subject.

There is on one hand, what if you are the innocent victim of a crime that you didnt commit and are facing the deaty penalty?

There are also those that are not affected at all by the crime and this is where I find most saying that death is not the answer. There needs to be another way to deal with this.

And on the other hand, what if the person that is in line for the death penalty was the one that brutally attacked, raped, and cut your child, sibling, parents, friends, etc. to pieces?

I cannot sit here and say that I would be trying to find a way to forgive this person or look for another way. That would be a boldface lie. I would want that person to die.

Regards,

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